The Holocaust is Overrated

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posted on Jun, 1 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
FOR EXAMPLE: How The US Indiscriminately Bombed The Hell Out Of Vietnam Leading To Millions Of Civilian Deaths.

Understand?


Please provide some proof and support for this ludicrous statement. I am a Viet Nam vet, so that particular area of history is very important to me and I have made it an object of study. I have no knowledge of "indiscriminate" bombing of Viet Namese civilians, leading to millions of deaths. Where is your historical evidence. Yes, bombing runs were conducted on North Korean targets in Hanoi and other strategic military targets (missile sites, supply depots, etc) but never just "indisciminite" bombing of VietNamese civilians. Before you try to pass crap like this off as fact do a little research; not every one is a gullible and easy to convince as you are.




posted on Jun, 1 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by lightseeker
 


How about the firebombing of Dresden? We don't really learn about that one.

You know, the firestorm that was purposefully created which turned a defenseless, civilian populated city into ash.



February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

www.rense.com...

If you don't like rense, you can just look it up on google. Or read Slaughterhouse Five.

[edit on 1-6-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by italkyoulisten

How about the firebombing of Dresden? We don't really learn about that one.


But you have learnt about it haven't you? You do know about it, it hasn't been suppressed if that is your implication. Here you are I've even searched it out on Google - rense is not the only source by a long chalk...

Operation Thunderclap

Our educations systems cannot teach us everything, this is not suppression or concealment, it is simply logistics. If you are interested in other aspects of WW2 then there is a plethora of information out there. If all you look for is information as to whether the Jewish holocaust happened then that is all you'll find and others will be able to convince you that this is because this information is given preference. A walk around the WW2 section of any library will demonstrate that you have been misled. In fact it should tell you that academia is far more interested in the technical details of the planes and tanks used in that war, than it is in the death of innocent civilians lol.


[edit on 2-6-2008 by KilgoreTrout]



posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 07:29 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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And ask yourself what for ...why lies ...well here is one good reason to keep the lies going ..

Lies to milk BILLIONS of Germans even now 60 years later ...
BILLIONS ..by people that where not even in the holocaust
All that’s needed by the Zionist pigs is a relative around 4 corners was looked at by a Nazi to sue and claim ..
YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR


THIS IS the reason for the lies to continue THIS IS the reason it has to stay 6 million ..
.

Really poor ..SO many deniers here ..YES that is what you are : A DENIER of the facts ..Blind to the truth and moulded by the government ..

Once again I don’t even hate you people I find it just so unbelievable dumb that you cannot see the lies ....too many to miss me ...it is not possible for any educated person reading and looking


[edit on 2-6-2008 by memyself_I]



posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 07:47 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Apolon
 


Is this the reason for your issue with Holocaust? Money given to Israel - correct. Did Israel took it from former Yugoslavia? Did Israel bombed it? You say that Germany invaded your country 3 times and yet you wright it with capital G and Israel not.
You are entitled to dislike whoever you want, but if you do not trust what current official history says about Holocaust because Israel received money and Serbia did not - i do not understand it.


The entire argument here is why Holocaust gets tied up with Jews rather than all People killed and slaughtered in the WWII. The money issue just proves the fact that there is extremely strong and powerful institution-lobby behind this coming towards israel and Jewish survivors but not others who suffered even more!
Everything we said here points in direction of conspiracy ranging from forming of illegal country of israel on stolen land from Palestine to money grabbing by powerful lobies who hide behind Jewish cause.
Exelent site done by true Jewish patriots shows what they are fighting against. Try to dispute them if you don't trust us.

www.jewsnotzionists.org...

I used to hang around Jewish People in London and was madly in love with Jewish girl from very influential family. Almost got married 15 years ago.
So, I could have nothing against honest Jews but everything against Zionists and lobbyists who use People killed in past wars to justify rip off from other countries and changing facts in order to make other innocent People like myself feeling guilty, of WHAT?!?
My ancestors and People in present suffered and still suffering becouse of their sick Nazi agenda!
Substitute your words and put Examine and asking questions instead of hatred toward Jews and you will see what I am searching for and fighting against.
Whenever People start asking questions and looking for answers even remotely connected to israel and Jewish lobby, we were attacked and branded as fascists or Nazi. It's ok to question and spit all over other countries. USA, Russia, Iraq, Serbia, Iran, Vietnam, China... But when it comes to israel and their genocidal policy against Palestinians for the past 60 years it is taboo. You can even face jail in some countries just by asking questions and raising opinions different to zionist stories in the School books. Mu kids will not read that crap. They will be thought to use their brain and not be part of this sick system, but to fight it all the way, always till the day truth prevails, whatever that might be!
that will be my legacy. Spread the truth and love not lies, hatred and deceit.
I might sound sharp but I have a big heart and I am willing to help anyone at any time but will always step on a toe of a sick and corrupted governments and individuals.
Years ago I left well paid job because I couldn't stand lick asses and leaches.
I always put my pride and honor before anything, especially dirty money.
I know what I know but it's up to others to get there by watching closely, listening, separating facts from TV fiction...
I love debating here and I wish there is more People sharing my opinion but I am aware that we are all different and sometimes blind patriotism clouds our judgment. I've been there too.

[edit on 2-6-2008 by Apolon]



posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 08:09 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Jun, 2 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Yes but I am sure that most are unaware of the extent of how crazy it was. It was a specifically targeted because it was a civilian city, juts like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, except it killed more people than both. We are talking about the average masses here. They do not know. Just like you can say that I already knew all that stuff about Asia so it's not suppressed. The key to control is to not have total control. You want the rules to be able to bend a little to give the masses a false sense of freedom.

[edit on 2-6-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 05:52 AM
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posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by italkyoulisten
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Yes but I am sure that most are unaware of the extent of how crazy it was. It was a specifically targeted because it was a civilian city, juts like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, except it killed more people than both. We are talking about the average masses here. They do not know. Just like you can say that I already knew all that stuff about Asia so it's not suppressed.


Do not get me wrong, and I think that you have, I do believe that there are 'conspiracies' to suppress the complete history of the second world war and I do believe that the general knowledge of the period is somewhat lacking. However, I also believe that you cannot expect everyone to be interested or find it relevent. I am and I do, but that is a personal choice.

I realise that your post previous to this one has been removed, but I did read it...I am a product of the British education system, so my experience may be different to yours, but even so I was never taught the second world war. My year (the subjects rotate annually, or used to anyway) did the first world war and that was pretty rudimentary, as was all my history education. It formed a basis for my interest though. I can honestly say that the 17 years that I spent in full time education provided for no more than 5% of my overall historical knowledge base. The other 95% I have sought out myself, for no other reason than I am interested. I have no qualifications, I have no foreseeable means of profiting from this knowledge. In terms of the second world war, 100% of that knowledge is my own exploration. I am sure therefore you can understand my consternation when people claim that the history is kept from them, it isn't, it is just that most are either uninterested or want someone to package it for them in an easily digestible form. The truth is open to abuse in both these scenarios.

Dresden was a terrible thing, I do not support it in anyway (and Slaughterhouse Five is one of my favourite books - love Vonnegut, hence my name). Hiroshima and Nagasaki are remembered though because they were unique. Although Dresden was unparalled in devastation and civillian deaths, it was not unique, cities and their inhabitants, all over europe were targeted by both sides, I think it is called collateral damage. Hiroshima and Nagasaki we know were different and these 'pioneering' acts supposedly ended the war, which makes them all the more 'special'.

The Jewish experience is also unique in its own way.

Civilians were indeed killed all over the world in the course of the war. There were many mass murderers and therefore thousands of mass graves. There was death and there was famine - over 60 million people died in the course of the second world war, and amongst all that death and destruction what does it matter that 6 million of those were of Jewish ethnicity. And if I am honest it doesn't matter, they are all dead, nothing is going to bring them back and take away the suffering that was inflicted up on them. What interest me more is why people want us to believe that it didn't happen. Since before the war ended there has been an organised and orchestrated effort to cast doubt on the Jewish experience alone.

When I first studied these movements in the late 80s or 90s I dismissed them as crack pots and it is only since joining ATS have I realised how much influence they have gained since the internet started burning out the desire to read books. Without a full and varied education I can imagine that these ideas might be attractive and plausible, as frustrating as I may find it, I do understand why people may prefer to blame the victims given the propagandic tactics that these organisations use. With very few exceptions the information that they proliferate falls to pieces with only the most cursory examination, some are more clever, but on the whole they appeal to those that have little or no historical knowledge.

Therefore I can only conclude that if there is a conspiracy to prevent a thorough understanding of the second world war and the holocaust in particular, that those people are behind the funding of the denialist movement themselves. Because one without the other is pointless. Only if you know nothing about the history as a whole can you possibly believe that the gas chambers and the extermination of the Jews didn't take place. In context the events make perfect sense, only out of context do they become in anyway unreal.

Nobody has ever forced the holocaust on me, I asked about it but only after I first found out about myself. I don't feel that the Jews get any more compensation that any other group that is able to afford adequate and effective representation. I do not think that most Jews even care, and I agree with Finklestein that much money is being made in the name of the Holocaust. But all that aside, the injustice, the brutality of the Israeli regime, the profiteering of suffering etc etc does not detract from the fact that those events happened. And if you took the time to acquaint yourself with the history in detail you would understand it too and realise why others might want us to doubt it.


Originally posted by italkyoulisten
The key to control is to not have total control. You want the rules to be able to bend a little to give the masses a false sense of freedom.


No the key to control is in making the masses FEEL impotent. We are not. Unfortunately the truth is that most are quite happy to be spoon fed information instead of extracting their bottoms from the high-chair and feeding their own intellects.



posted on Jun, 3 2008 @ 10:25 AM
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Hello friends
I usually log in to reply but I been contacted today ....
I been asked to post here and ask why the angry young man memyself&I

has been banned from posting
I seen the NOW deleted posts and it doent have any content in I would consider ovensive ..
he aske me because we know each other and I promissed i ask here ..
ATS !!
Your moderators run out of arguments oso they delete the posts then block the sign in ..
I will have to also re consider my ATS status
member for a long time with many many posts ..but this is getting a bit far

More and more people are beeeing pushed out becasue ATS doesnt like their views ..

Its really not the good old days anymore on this board ..



posted on Jun, 4 2008 @ 06:24 PM
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I suggest people watch this video called "The Ring of Power."

It kind of puts all this stuff in perspective with the NWO. Apparently, this is just a smaller part of a much larger plan.

It's pretty long though, but it is definitely worth watching. You probably will need some pen and paper to jot down some of the crazier stuff to look up. It is basically about Zionism, the NWO, the Empire of the Cities, and the Cult of Amun, all with sources and is presented in a logical manner. The first part is found here:


Google Video Link


Part two is here:


Google Video Link


[edit on 4-6-2008 by italkyoulisten]



posted on Jun, 5 2008 @ 07:53 AM
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posted on Jun, 6 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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reply to post by italkyoulisten
 


Point is that the study of history is important to avoid past mistakes. Also, why don't we hear about other atrocities? Simple, the victors always write the history...thus the US POV of WWII. When is the last time any of you sat in a classroom and were taught about the genocide in...Armenia, Cambodia, South Africa (Boaer Wars), Rowanda, Sudan (happening right now) China, Russia, the American West (native american genocide certainly not covered in standard US history classes)...Unfortunatly this list is way too long to continue here...you get the point...its the message and the particular event that we need to learn...over and over and over again appearently.



posted on Jun, 9 2008 @ 05:14 AM
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Originally posted by mazzroth

Originally posted by LoneWeasel
I've lost count of the number of times I've asked people on this thread who flog this dead horse to provide me with the names and specific cases of people currently residing in prison having been prosecuted under this supposed law.LW


www.englishpen.org...
www.guardian.co.uk...

Now since I have provided proof of this you can shut up with your Pro-Israel lies. Tell me this LoneWeasel do you honestly think that a People genuinely oppressed to the tune of 6 million executions would then go on and Persecute the Palestinians as they have ? I think not.

Now since I have provided you with absolute proof that People are Jailed for this, then do me the favour of providing the names of the 6 million who were killed by the Germans.


Mazzroth, offering me David Irving as your sole example of someone who is incarcerated as a result of “questioning” the holocaust is unfortunately very unlikely to get me to shut up. Irving, a proven anti-semite and holocaust denier (as distinct from “questioner”) was imprisoned having deliberately sought to provoke and incite hate. He was prosecuted for that provocation, and that’s fine with me. But there’s a world of difference between his method of argument and that of someone researching and ultimately finding to be inaccurate a particular statistic regarding deaths or internment at a death camp during the holocaust. You can’t be imprisoned for the latter, and no one has been.

The distinction you fail to acknowledge is that between reasoned debate, which is what italkyoulisten professes to have sought to begin here, and hate-fuelled anti-semitic incitement, which is what Irving pursued and what several less eloquent contributors have enthusiastically sought to engage in on this thread. Incitement, like any other social disorder, is in my view justifiably punished by society.

The fact is, no one is in prison anywhere for "questioning" the holocaust, a point you’ve proved by failing to provide a single example of anyone who has been. If you want to debate the validity of Irving’s position, you can, but I would caution that you may not find him to be a worthy proponent of your cause…

I think your remark that had the Jews really lost so many to the Nazi slaughter, they would not have persecuted anyone else is extremely naïve, and fails to take into account the large majority of human history.

And as for your question regarding “names” of those who died at the hands of the Nazis, I suggest that you study the same census information used by Lucy S. Dawidowicz to come to her conclusions regarding the total deaths. en.wikipedia.org...:The_War_Against_the_JewsTable.png
I’m afraid I’m not going to “shut up”, Mazzroth. Sorry.

LW



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 07:25 AM
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I am reading the thread and I am disgusted at the replies form some ats members ..
How can you people stick up for any of this nonsense


Its a proven FACT the holocaust is a lie and never happened as they have us believe ..

Loneweasel
what is you agenda!!!??? is it maybe As you name suggests??
Are you a ignorant or doing it on purpose ?

any one with a speck of brain can see and find out that the holocaust as written is a filthy pathetic LIE


I shall pick up where others left ...banned ??
memyselfI has pointed it out perfectly ..
Logistically it could have never happend the way they have you belive and written INTO YOUR CHILDRENS BOOKS TO STUDY ..its NOT POSSIBLE !!
Exactly as some ¨people have said already!

in the 50´s and 60´s people really where that stupid ..look at 50´s TV adverts ...The masses are a gullible mob of idiots and make believe worked a charm in them innocent days but once looked at in details it quickly became clear it was impossible to have happened as stated ..
Sine the late 70´s we have proven so many so called facts to e wrong ...
Many numbers of so called gas chamber death had to be amended its sick ..yet never once the revisionists have been proven wrong ...not once
Every time we moved forward to report a LIE publicly it was acknowledged and quickly brushed under the carpet ..and yes this has been reported in this thread as well

Forget any fact ...just look at the logistics ..
Do it and you see the ridiculous claims are just so dumb and with a bit of brain and maths you can figure out yourself the lies.

Lies to protect the illegal state Israel ..

Iam not going to tell you any names of people in prison
Do you own homework ...

You very well know many people are in prison for questioning the holocaust
not ANTI SEMITISM ..that’s another made up word..
DONT USE IT IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ARE SERVING USING IT .


NO all we do is QUESTION!!!!...and then questioning some more ...you do it after they warn you you go to jail ..FACT!!!


This alone is PROOF we the revisionists are right and we KNOW IT!!

The fight about the truth is long over ..We have proof and reported it many years ago ..you probably was still on mummies skirt but ...does not change the facts
We know the lies we told the lies
The only fight left is censorship ..
The facts are not allowed to be told to the dumb masses ..
They have to believe the bubble that was created ...and JAIL stops revisionist to step collectively forward ..
many doctors and teachers KNOW and we will not give up to make it public..



and also Very odd how people in the know are censored on ats

Please feel free to reply with some more propaganda as to NOONE IS IN JAIL
In the process you have ignored ALL questions and facts put in front of you and I know you will do the same in your reply
I will not repeat the questions as they are all in the last few pages of the thread and you are far to busy ignoring facts and questions from others ..your agenda is to push the Lies and carry them another 60 years ..

You well know there are many many in JAIL TODAY !!! for nothing more then asking uncomfortable questions

just read back at memyself I ..he posted a lot of useful info before it was marked as off topic ..(pfeee) and he was presumably banned ...




[edit on 18-6-2008 by terte]



posted on Jun, 18 2008 @ 01:55 PM
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reply to post by terte
 


Ok. Lies. It is all lies!!!
One question then, asked repetedly on this thread and never answered.

Poland 1931 census: little more then 3000000 Jews. Poland 1945 - 240000 Jews. Let us say half went to Soviet Union in Poland partition, so 1500000 - 240000 = 1260000
Where are those people hiding? You must know the truth, after all the official version is a lie.
I guess the answer will be the same silence.



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 

Yeah just one question then ...
Typicall of the uneducated fools ..how about taking notice of ALL the sceptic questions put to you lot all thorugh this thread ...by people now banned for asking ....
...The HOLY 6 million is a lie whatever the truth is we will never know the powrers that are will ensure of this ..Ask and question too much oyu will end up in jail ..
Just google Mrs. Stolz a lawyer in germnay ...

Whatever you are told ...belive me you have been lied to ...why ? it very obvious but you have to find out for yourself ....

Why not do some research ...I grew up for decades with the same thoughts as you ..I didnt belive the lies are that BIG but once you do research it takes a while , you will see there is too much wrong for the story to stick anymore
So please do yourself a favour ...The powers that are did not just start lying and turning things to their advantage They are doing this for hundreds of years ..
What u think will be written in Histry books about 9/11 in the future
You bbeliev the truth will be written ..Will it F&%& they will tell you some arabs with boxcutters did all this ..and YES it sound really stupid doesnt it but that what our grandchildren will be taught as facts ...

So please dont be ignorant ..I have been for many years but once you start to look into this you will see ...too many things dont make sense and just dont add up ...this will leave you eventually with the conclusion the facts as written are not correct and really just full of holes ..

And yes be carefull as always Both sides are poisened .,..YTou will find many Neo Nazis jumped on this for obvious reasons and the wel has been poisoned so to say but its all there if you care to look past boths sides propaganda


Simply the ´facts ´as in our Histroy books are incorrect ...and really I guess you need ot do some homework to reseach it yourself ....

I will not get banned from here explaining to you the lies
I will end up as many ex-members ...banned plus i KNOW for a fact its irrelevant what anyone tell you u, it will only sink in once found yourself ..it was the same for me ..
I didnt believe one word ..for many years ..I grew up with the knowlegde and thought it was proven history ..once looked at it s not so prooven anymore

All i say google is your friend !
Holocaust as we know it is a lIE ...but this does not mean none got killed or that it never happened It sure as HELL did happen , BUT not as you have been told and written in our books ...
many mnay mnay mnay people got killed in labour camps and this includes many many many jews
BUT NOT ONLY JEWS so stop making this a JEW HOLOCAUST
Its a lie!!! A dirty rotten lie used for decades to finace the illegal Jewish state thorugh payments


The facts stay and are undeniable ..
The Holocaust as written in our schoolbooks is a big fat lie ...



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by terte
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 

Yeah just one question then ...
Typicall of the uneducated fools ..how about taking notice of ALL the sceptic questions put to you lot all thorugh this thread ...by people now banned for asking ....


Terte - please stop calling people uneducated fools, or ignorant - for a start it's not accurate, and in any case it adds nothing to your argument. Why are you being so aggressive to us? I'm not being aggressive to you, and I'm not responsible for what you believe to be the realities of holocaust history - and I didn't write the text books you claim write lies. So please stop shouting at me.

To answer the personal accusations you've aimed at me - no, I don't have an agenda. I've no idea what you think my name "suggests" - but whatever it is I doubt it's intentional.

I've put my points in what I consider to be a reasonable and dignified manner throughout this thread. I will continue to put those points to defend what I consider to be the reasoned side of the argument. You start off by saying that the holocaust not happening is proven as fact. This is in my view utter nonsense. But feel free to believe what you like.

I have answered most of your rant previously on this thread. Your suggestion that I know very well that there are people in jail for questioning the holocaust is also complete nonsense. I have done my homework. I state again - there is no one in jail for questioning the holocaust in any civilised country in the world. And by civilised I mean, for starters, anywhere in Europe or North America. If you have examples of people who are, please provide them, I would be curious to learn more about their case.

If you could contrive to supply your answer like someone answering a simple question in a reasonable way, rather than with quite so much anger, that would be great - but whatever makes you feel comfortable, it's not a problem to me...

Thanks for your post, sort of...

LoneWeasel (whatever THAT means...)



posted on Jun, 19 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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reply to post by terte
 


Well i picked this question because it is supposed to be very easy. People know how many bodies could or could not be cremated in concentration camps per minute, that cyanide cannot kill humans, how to use it against insects and such. All complex issues needing education and smart people.
However with my question it should be much easier. And yet even you fail to answer it but choose to repeat your respected opinion.
So for me the situation remains as it is. Before i will understand why in vast majority of countries occupied by Nazi Germany percentage of human beings from Jewish origin who survived the war is much lower then of human beings of most other populations. The same with Gypsies.
So when you call it lies , do not be offended if i choose to trust what cannot be played with - numbers of people before and after. And i cannot understand how you can call it a lie before you answered this difference to yourself at least.





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