Hezbollah 'proud of being US enemy'

Reply to semperfortis

What is happening in Iraq is the singular invasion of foreign adversaries attempting to disrupt and depose the Democratically Elected Government.

Nicely put!

Back to square one again. Why go to Iraq is first place than blame ‘foreign adversaries attempting to disrupt and depose the Democratically Elected Government.’?

I am a Christian. (yes also unprovable and unsubstantiated) If the Christian church still advocated the barbaric policies you support, I would no longer be a Christian. I have no place in my life for one human being justified in inflicting brutal, cruel and inhuman behavior on another due to some belief system.

Yes Christians have changed and adapted in past and are still doing. Thats why most are moving towards atheism.People keep changing the scriptures according to thier own desires.

I really never thought I would meet anyone that believes in that kind of barbarity and inhuman actions here on ATS... Logic would dictate that an intellectual mind would be repulsed by that. Guess I was wrong...

What you call ‘barbarity’ and ‘inhuman’ is the best way to stop fornication and criminal activities. When one knows the consequences than they Fear of getting chopped up or stoned alive which leads to nearly 0% of them committing the crime.
It also stops the bastardisation in the society.
Morals and family values are kept intact.

WOW

I am truly speechless...

( I know there are some here that are great full.. HAHA)

You support the stoning death of someone that has sex in someway you don't like all to continue "Family Values".........

.....

Just WOW..

No common ground here my fellow member.. Nothing more really to discuss.. Nice talking to you..

Semper

I'm kind of on the same page here semper, in some regards.

I truly believe the war is wrong and we should never have gone in to Iraq - I also don't think the soldiers should be blamed for being there: Blame the politicians.

That said, there is an argument for saying we did the right thing for the wrong reasons

As far as sharia law is concerned, I personally think aspects of it are barbaric - but if people choose to live under sharia law, then I don't think I have a right to judge them.

And as far as barbarism is concerned, don't you work in law enforcement?
If I have remembered correctly, and you do, do you support the death penalty?

Again, personally speaking, I find the DP barbaric.

reply to post by budski


I'm torn on the death penalty, but regardless..

We have endeavored to provide a punishment for what is considered "Ultimate" offenders that is dignified and worthy of a civilized society. Have we made mistakes along the way? Of course, but last I checked we don't execute for sex. We all will die at one point and there is no good reason to put someone up and stone them to death for the heinous crime of performing a biological act.

We also don't maim some 16 year old kid for stealing an apple to keep from starving.

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


No we don't, but does that make us morally superior?

I'm not so sure.

We live in such PC, touchy-feely societies, that the boundaries of right and wrong have started to break down to a greater degree than before.
There is little discipline, less respect for authority and a drink/drug/gang culture which is spiralling out of control.

If we cannot adequately protect our citizens from the baser elements in society, are we justified in taking the moral high ground when it comes to law and order?

The stoning to death of people is the exception, rather than the rule, but I take your point about it - it is barbaric.

My point however, is that from a moral point of view, are we really so much better, that we can dictate how others choose to live and under which laws?

reply to post by Rahl Darc


Here's your answer Rahl:

The narrow pavements of Winchester city centre have been packed with people waving flags and cheering on soldiers, sailors and airmen as they marched past.

About 3,000 in all turned out to welcome back troops, who recently returned from operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The parade is one of several to be held since the head of the Army, Gen Sir Richard Dannatt, and former senior officers criticised local councils for not doing enough to welcome forces coming home from active duty.

source

I'm all for this - military personnel should not be punished for doing something they were ordered to do as part of their job.

reply to post by kangjia57


Don't you think it's up to God to punish immorality? Man can certainly punish criminality, but the punishment needs to fit the crime. Every crime can't warrant death/dismemberment.

Reply to BlueRaja

Don't you think it's up to God to punish immorality? Man can certainly punish criminality, but the punishment needs to fit the crime. Every crime can't warrant death/dismemberment.

Fornication is one of the worst/shameful crimes in Islam. It leads to a whole generation of messed up kids as their parental upbringing is very poor.

Stealing you don’t get put to death. Just one of your hands chopped off.

These laws are soo harsh because it creates fear in whoever is thinking to commit crime. Crime rate is minimised greatly and society is maintained and disciplined properly.

reply to post by kangjia57


What about conversion to another religion? What about sending a thief to prison rather than chopping their hand off?

reply to post by kangjia57


I have to disagree here.
If you are looking it from a religious viewpoint, didn't the old testament preach "go forth and multiply"?

Just where did it mention that you must be married to do it?

I'm also aware that the koran uses many parts of both the old and new testament.

Fornication is a sin in whose opinion?
And what is fornication?
It's not necessarily the act of procreation - so again, is this another man-made "religious" law?

From my own point of view, I know many, many happy couples who are NOT married and have been together for many years, raising healthy, polite, well adjusted children.

Religion using marriage as a control mechanism is one of the worst things that ANY religion has been responsible for IMO.

reply to post by budski


I'm against any form of theocracy, and I'm Christian. I believe man's laws should be reserved for punishment of crime. Immorality is between you and God, and unless it's also criminal, man should stay out of it.

Reply to BlueRaja

What about conversion to another religion?

I am not sure what the punishment is for converting to another religion.

What about sending a thief to prison rather than chopping their hand off?

Because the thief will come out and steal again. But he wouldn’t steal again if he has only one hand

Reply to budski

If you are looking it from a religious viewpoint, didn't the old testament preach "go forth and multiply"?

Muslims only follow the Quran.

"And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse (zina) and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." (al-Furqaan #25, ayat #68-70)

"And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah (a great sin) and an evil way." (Sura Al-Israa # 17 ayah # 32)

The rest is answered in detail here:
www.understanding-islam.com...

reply to post by BlueRaja


So does morality only apply to those who believe in some sort of deity?

IMO organised religion has shown precioous little in the way of morality throughout it's long and bloody history - and I mean ALL modern religions, or their offshoots.

reply to post by kangjia57


So although it says that the sinner shall be punished on the day of resurrection (straight out of the bible) you still believe it is mans duty to punish?

Does that not beg the point that god is not capable of inflicting punishment himself?
If it's gods word, shouldn't god be the one to punish?
And if you are to be killed for something, where is the opportunity to repent and atone?

BTW - I believe you are wrong, many passages in al'quran are taken wholesale from the christian bible.



[edit on 29/1/2008 by budski]

Reply to budski

If it's gods word, shouldn't god be the one to punish?

And if you are to be killed for something, where is the opportunity to repent and atone?

You repent if you are not living under Sharia Law.You get punished if you are living under Sharia Law.

The good thing about being punished in the world for that sin is that he won’t have to answer for it on the day of judgement. As he has already got punished for it.

BTW - I believe you are wrong, many passages in al'quran are taken wholesale from the christian bible.

The Bible was corrupted that’s why God sent the Quran because he himself has taken the responsibility to prevent The Quran from alteration/modification that’s why its text has remained pure for 1400 years till today since revelation.

IF the Christians and Jews follow the original uncorrupted Bible or Torah than they indeed are Muslims too.But those original scriptures were lost during past centuries as both religions changed them.

Topics related to The Quran have been discussed in detail here:

www.belowtopsecret.com...'

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

reply to post by budski


No- I'm talking about punishment for non-criminal sex, rather than morality being dependant on religion.

Originally posted by kangjia57


"And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse (zina) and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." (al-Furqaan #25, ayat #68-70)

"And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah (a great sin) and an evil way." (Sura Al-Israa # 17 ayah # 32)

Here is the relevant passage, quoted by you:
The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful."

So, again - how do you "repent and believe and do righteous deeds", if you are dead?

It says nothing in this verse about killing, or about punishment by man or other earthly means - rather, it states that allah is responsible for punishment.

This is just another example of man changing the word of god to suit his own needs and to satisfy his bloodlust.

Reply to budski

This is just another example of man changing the word of god to suit his own needs and to satisfy his bloodlust.

God has sent Prophets to guide the people.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has taught us how to follow the Quran by practising these things himself.

reply to post by kangjia57


And yet you failed to address my points about the very passage you quoted.

Hmmm

Reply to budski

And yet you failed to address my points about the very passage you quoted.

The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Like I said before under Sharia law you get punished and that itself is a form of repentance because you don’t have to answer for that sin on the day of judgement.
You repent when you are not under Sharia law.But it has to be done with full sincerity and making sure it won't be done again.