I Wish To Offer An Opinion On Atlantis

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
srsen,

Being of Irish descent on my mothers side and having much respect for the Irish people, I must take exception to what you claim about the Tuatha de Danann. Literally the "people of the goddess Danu". The Tuatha de were believed to descend from Nemed who was believed to have come from Scythia. You do know where that is, right? NOT in the Atlantic!!

Please, it is to be known that i have nothing but the utmost respect for the Irish - the concept that they originate from Atlantis only strenghtnes my respect for them. The subject matter is controversial but isn't meant to offend.

Your information on Tuatha De Danann reigning from Scythia may indeed be correct. However, it fails to recognise that if you continue tracking back through the years, the origins of the those who reigned in Scythia were indeed of Atlantean descent.

They had trekked EAST to Sythia (post-diluvian, after cataclysm) before returning back WEST to their homeland. Modern (skewed) history picks up the journey half way through, making it appear as though they originated in Scythia itself.


Also, i have read Plato, several times (i have the book at home), and believe there is a clear reference to a REAL city which DID exist, and that yes he did put the empahsis on what happened there. THis was the point of his dialogue - to warn modern (of the time) peoples of the perils which could befall them as they also happened to Atlantis.

The timeframes for Atlantis and the Tuatha De are about 7500 years apart according to potential erroneous information sources which, as i described earlier, don't seem to tell the whole story.

srsen,

Sorry but that doesn't wash. One thing I didn't tell you was that last year, 2007, I had my maternal DNA tested. I come from a line that is not just generally Irish, but specifically Irish, being in a group known as pre-K1a10. This line dates back to Ireland around 16,000 BC according to geneticists and anthrogenealogists. The predecessor of this line came from Central Europe about 50,000 BC. NONE of them came from the west. Note that this is BEFORE the end of the last Ice Age.

I also believe Plato based Atlantis on a real city or island. I just believe that it was Santorini/Thera in the Mediterranean circa 1600 BC.

reply to post by cormac mac airt



Once again, an interesting piece of info and one which i do not doubt - however, this only plots YOUR direct ancestory.

I'm sure there are other lines which would tell an entirely different story.


If Plato were referring to Santorini or Thera then would he have not referenced those names specifically?

Not really considering mine is one of the YOUNGEST genetic lines out of Ireland and still before the end of the Ice Age. There were many other groups of haplogroup "K" in Ireland at that time. Most if not all are older than mine. Other non-K lines came FROM the east.

The Scythians are an Indo-Iranian peoples who belonged to the Eastern Iranian linguistic group. I wasn't aware that Atlanteans spoke Iranian.

The island of Santorini was part of the Minoan civilization from 3000 to around 1450 BC. The name Santorini wasn't used before the 13th century AD, comes from Saint Irene. The oldest name Thera wasn't used before the 9th century BC until used by the Dorians. The Phoenicians inhabited the island before that but the name for it wasn't passed down. So no, Plato wouldn't know what it was called so far back in history.

originally posted by srsen This tribe of the Goddess Danu arrived in Ireland at approximately 2000BC. THEIR OWN history stated that they originated from lost islands in the North West (Atlantic region).

It is much more likely that the Tuathe De were Scythians or related in some part to Scythia or that they were a purely mythical race. In nearly all the commentary i've read on the Tuatha De it is said that they came from Northern Europe or there abouts. Where did you read this "lost islands in the North West (Atlantic region), do you have a link please.

originally posted by srsenIt is said that the De Danann were also able to conjur the Earth itself when it battle. Commanding mountains and rivers to their will.

It is said in folklore by the Tuatha De and/or their descendants and the next wave of invaders/settlers, they were making them out to be something greater than they were, ie Deity's, when they were in fact mere mortals. Thats how legends are made.

originally posted by srsenSurely there is enough preliminary information here to classify the records and history of Tuatha De Danann as a basis for Atlantean research.

The technology was obviously advanced and yet we have no other indication to suggest an origin from anything other than lost homelands in the north-west.

No, not if you'd truly done extensive research into the Tuatha De and the Myths and Legends of Ireland instead of just believing something you read on some website, correct me if im wrong but if you had done extensive research on this subject i doubt you would be making these claims.

Book of Invasions

Lebor Gabála Érenn, the book of the taking of Ireland.

Tuatha De Danaan, wiki.

Irish Mythology

Irelands History in Maps

A good book to read if you can get it at your local library is "The Celtic Heroic Age" and "Early Irish History and Mythology."

And just to keep things on topic i agree with an earlier poster that Atlantis, if it existed, would be where the Azores or the Canary's are situated.



(edit to fix linky )









[edit on 10/1/08 by mojo4sale]

For what it is worth - The Aztec people believed they originally came from a place called Aztlan and an ancient weapon used in the America's was the atlatl. Also, a documentary that aired last year was about a research team that was investigating the area around Binimi as a possible location for Atlantis. They brought up a large oddly shaped black stone (looked like the profile of a man's face) from the ocean floor and believed it to be an ancient boat weight. It was very interesting to me because I had found a smaller version of that same oddly shaped black stone on a bank near the Snake River in SE Washington. It would seem feasible to me that Atlantians could have colonized throughout the western world since they probably were a sea-going people and the Aztec could possibly have been their descendents. Any comments?

Originally posted by woodwytch

Queen Maudes Land, Antarctica;

IMHO, this was the original primary site and would obviously have been installed prior to the area becoming an icy wasteland. Even so, I think the structure ... a massive inverted pyramid (the same as all the other locations), is below ground-level.

The ice-cover makes this highly likely to be represented by the element of water

It's been an icey wasteland an awful long time. It may have been slightly less ice covered than today during the last interglacial, but still hardly a place to live. Maybe back in the Pliocene (4mya)? Although even there there is conflicting evidence on whether it may have been slightly more temperate.

Please people, do not deter from the original point of my thread,
to provide theories leading to the discovery on atlantis,
not what happened to its people etc. and not trying to disprove atlantis existed,

However i also must state though that from my undertsandings, the people of ireland do not have a high probability to have descended from atlantis

Sorry, but I just can't refute the evidence that Plato's story of Atlantis is nothing more than a dramatic retelling of the demise of the Minoan civilization. Personally

reply to post by zephyrs

While I believe inspiration from the Minoans is the most plausible explanation, I dont think there's much evidence for... well, anything. Platos dialogues are by definition, fiction: they didnt happen until he wrote and acted them.

[edit on 13-1-2008 by merka]

Does Anyone have Any information on ancient mountainous citadels?

reply to post by AmmonSeth

You'd have to define "ancient". If you're looking for ~12,000 year old citadels I dont think you'll find any.

Originally posted by AmmonSeth
Does Anyone have Any information on ancient mountainous citadels?

Masada comes to mind...and its situated overlooking the 'Dead Sea'

fable has it that Shambala is in a mountainous citadel, retreat...

men have forever idealized a high abode, like Eagles Nest
the historical mountain retreat/citadel coveted by Hitler


yep, the tale of atlantis could have an origination much different than the
atlantis we, thru Plato, have constructed in our minds eye...


~~~~~~~~~~
edit; forgot the /, & the post was too many caps

[edit on 15-1-2008 by St Udio]

Skeptics tend to narrow down the Atlantis-debate to what Plato said.

In my own research I have found that there is much more to be discovered by leaving Plato aside and instead look at the accounts of other ancients. The Greeks werent the only ancients.

The established myth has it that the Atlantis story originates from Plato. Even wikipedia says so. But that is not true. Hints and references to a sunken continent and/or Lost Civilzation can be found with the native indians of north and south america, with the celts, the basques, the guanche of the canary islands, ancient egypt, the aborigines, ancient tibet...and the list goes on.

Why every discussion on Atlantis must be narrowed down to Plato is beyond me.

As for the OPs proposal: What mountains/land do you suggest we direct our attention to?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Skeptics tend to narrow down the Atlantis-debate to what Plato said.

The established myth has it that the Atlantis story originates from Plato. Even wikipedia says so. But that is not true. Hints and references to a sunken continent and/or Lost Civilzation can be found with the native indians of north and south america, with the celts, the basques, the guanche of the canary islands, ancient egypt, the aborigines, ancient tibet...and the list goes on.

Yes, you say this, but do you actually know this?

Please provide some reference to these "sunken continents" or at least to the myths you're talking about.

BTW, strictly speaking, there is no "Atlantis Myth." A myth implies some tradition, oral or whatever.

There is no tradition in Ancient Greece of anything even slightly resembling what Plato referred to as Atlantis.

Also, there are no such myths among (most of) the peoples you enumerated above, as far as I have been able to find.

Why not enlighten us? Are we supposed to take your word for it?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


This case has been taken care of more than a hundred years ago, when Ignatus Donelly cited all the ancients reports of the lost civilization. (Way before Edgar Cayce & Co. came on the scene).

Debunkers then came and said: "Well the ancients got it wrong, because there was no giant flood" or "The ancients were only making it all up".

But the case for Plato not being the only source of Atlantis info has been established a long time ago. The Basques call the sunken land "Atlaintika", for example. The Basques are not Greek.

Originally posted by woodwytch
reply to post by AmmonSeth

 

And I believe these locations will be discovered (in the not too distant future), in Egypt; Gizeh Plateau - subterraneous complex (earth) ... Yucatan Peninsula; Chichan Itza - reached via the Cenotes (fire - KT boundary meterorite) ... and Antarctica; Queen Maudes Land (water).


Woody

specifically Queen Maudes land are you refering to the ww2 nazi base in Antarctica?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Harte

 

This case has been taken care of more than a hundred years ago, when Ignatus Donelly cited all the ancients reports of the lost civilization. (Way before Edgar Cayce & Co. came on the scene).

Debunkers then came and said: "Well the ancients got it wrong, because there was no giant flood" or "The ancients were only making it all up".

But the case for Plato not being the only source of Atlantis info has been established a long time ago. The Basques call the sunken land "Atlaintika", for example. The Basques are not Greek.

Since you (apparently) refuse to provide any evidence whatsoever for your claim that many other old cultures have myths of sunken continents, pardon me if I say that you are wrong.

They do not.

Please provide at least a link that leads to a believable discussion of this supposed Basque legend of a sunken continent.

As enjoyable as Donnelly's book was (you can read it in it's entirety at Sacred-Texts.com,) it was written during a time before much was known about indigenous Americans - North or South.

Before plate tectonics was even envisioned, much less proven as still in effect.

Only shortly after Egyptian writing was deciphered and long before the vast majority of discoveries made in Egypt.

Before any writing system from South America was deciphered.

Before the myths and legends of American Indigenous peoples still extant were collected and categorized.

Before the development of scientific dating methods that completely shot down 99% of his claims.

Not to mention that Donnelly was himself a retired politician with no history credential, no science credential and no geography, archaeology or anthropology credential and that he wrote the entire book from his home without once visiting any of the areas he droned on about in his book - without examining a single artifact, without consulting a single geologist, geographer, historian, archaeologist or other scientist.

etc.

Why not link (at least) to the parts of "Atlantis - the Antidiluvian World" that support your argument? Provide some quotes as well. You would then at least appear to have put out some effort.

I also must note that your list of peoples with a "sunken continent" in their mythos has shrunk considerably.

Harte

[edit on 1/15/2008 by Harte]

reply to post by Harte


Well, since Ive had the pleasure of getting to know your denial of everything that is outside of mainstream schoolbook in other threads, I will not engage in discussion about it here, because it is derailing the thread and the express desire of the OP not to discuss whether atlatnis existed or not.

If you wish to discuss the matter, open your own thread entitled "Atlantis didnt exist", and I will prove to you that it did.

Or if you prefer, challenge me to an official ATS debate in the debates Forum.

But dont derail this thread.

Come on Harte, he challenged you to make a new thread, do it

I have to this date not seen a single solid piece of evidence that Atlantis existed in the sense Plato describe it (time period, size, location, etc) and I have seen absolutely no credible evidence presented for the every-other-civilization-talks-about-it-too aspect, just a whole lot of talk.