Energizer "D" Battery Exposed

sounds interesting... there's probably a good explanation though. we'll see

reply to post by Extralien


Unfortunately, this kind of shenanigans does not surprise me in the least bit.

A majority of people probably would not even look at the voltage when purchasing batteries. Its either A, AA, C, or D and I don't think I would notice either!

Great job corporate Amerika, another job well done .

While I can see how someone might feel this is a scam, but the rechargeable battery states right on the side "2500mAh". As far as I know all rechargable batterys use this rating system to designate how much 'charge' they hold. The AAAs in my cordless phone are like 2900mAhs or something. The cell size there seems to be the standard size of a rechargable that you would find in a cordless drill battery pack... Its not like it is a hearing aid battery inside.

Perhaps what makes this feel like a scam is the fact that most humans equate size with effectiveness. An C cell won't properly fit in the space that a device that needs a D cell, so they used an adapter to make it fit. I agree that since we are conditioned that way, that it seems unfair in this case. I equate it to buying a 256MB sdcard, only to find it is a 256MB microsd, with adapter. Then you realize that you should have gotten a 1GB, find out that you have been 'swindled' and complain that you don't have the storage you wish you did.

I recommend anyone interested in rechargeable batteries to goto a battery specialty store, and ask as many questions as you can, especially if you are thinking of buying 'brand name' rechargable cells. You maybe pleasantly surprised at the help, and the better charge for your buck. Then again, I might be lucky.

Also, if you want to see a real battery swindle, check this out:
The 12V Battery Hack that Saves You $40

Did you know what is inside some batteries? About $40-worth of savings, it seems. Cut open an A23 battery (cost: 94¢) and you'll find eight 1.5-volt button batteries, each of whose RRP is around $4.99.

Another link with step by step photo instructions @ Instructables
I especially like the 9 volt hack as well, but couldn't find it...

I also recommend that website: www.instructables.com... for all you "do-it-your-selfers". Lots of fun projects to do at home for little money.
Enjoy!
DocMoreau

[edit:metacafe video did not embed, so added photo from instructables, video is at both links]

[edit on 8/1/2008 by DocMoreau]

[edit on 8/1/2008 by DocMoreau]

Originally posted by Extralien
Just found this and i think it is an absolute outrage as to the tricks these big companies are up to.

This will go down as one of my all time favorite threads on ATS. This is a conspiracy by Energizer to defraud customers by basically repacking an AA battery as a D. I hope everyone shares this thread with their friends. Maybe the press gets wind and it generates enough negative PR that Energizer is forced to react.

reply to post by Indy


I disagree. That is not a AA cell. That is a SUB-C sized cell used in Rechargeable battery packs. It is rated at a AA rating, so Energizer is not doing anyone a favor. I found 8 10,000mAh D sized cells at Batteryspace.com for around 60bucks. Most people are not willing to pay 8 bucks a battery though.

I do agree that Energizer is trying to milk as much cash out of us cows as they can.

The Rabbit is a big Pink Liar
DocMoreau

PS... Maybe one of our electronics wiz-types can explain the mAh rating, I have no idea, (micro Amps per Hour?) and what a 'traditional' disposable battery's rating is, something like 1200mAh, I think.

Originally posted by Extralien

If 1 battery takes approximately 30 minutes to charge, what is the electrical power usage to charge the battery.
Multiply that by however many batteries of the same size and storage capacity and, lets say the maximum charegable life of 1000 charges and you may find your electric bill might cost more than buying disposables.

Perhaps someone can be so kind to get some figures for that.

I'll try my hand at the math, It's actually pretty easy to figure out how much various electronics around your house cost to use but it's been a while since I've done it. I did this last in a college TV course where the assignment was to figure out how much you would pay to leave a tv on year round vs other appliances. Neat experiment, tv's came out on top most of the time.

Every piece of electronic gear should have a little plate or sticker that tells you a few things, the voltage, amps used, and/or watts used. If the piece of gear only lists the amps not the watts you can simply multiply the Amps by the Volts and that = watts.

Now turn those watts into killowatts since killowatt hours is what the power company bills you by: 1kW = 1000W so divide the wattage by 1000. To find the killowatt hours you multiply the killowatt usage by the hours the device is in use. Try it out, if you want to see how much it costs to use something for a year this will help you out.

So Amps x Volts = Watts
1000 Watts = 1 Killowatt
Killowatts x hours = Killowatt hours
and Killowatt hours x cost per kWh= your out of pocket expense for plugging it in.

On to the batteries. I checked a universal charger we have at work for batteries and the listed input wattage is 6W or .006kW. In this case, 4 - D batteries take 16.5 hours to charge so 16.5h x .006kw = .099 kWh. My power company charges about $9.10 per kWh so to charge all four D cells would cost me $0.90. That's only about $0.23 per battery charge.

Now this math is not perfect, there are variables and rechargables do tend to lose charge over time, but it can't be that far off. I also found that the wikipedia entry on batteries shows that an alkaline D-cell tops out at around 19500 mAh (this is basically how long the battery will last) or about 7.5 times longer lasting than a rechargable d-cell.

So the final price verdict, for rechargables: $30 initial cost +$230 for 1000 charges = $260

For alkalines you would need to buy about 133 batteries to equal the mAh of 1000 charges so at $5 apiece you would spend about $665.

So it looks like it does pay to use the rechargables in the long run unless there are a whole lot of variables I am missing. You will have to constantly change batteries though. Eh, hows my math? Sorry if it's hard to follow, I'm a little sleepy...

P.S. Doc M, you had the exact same thought as me I posted that vid and the nine volt hack on the first page, instructables rule!

i race high end nitro powered RC cars and trucks worth + $1k ea that do up to 120kph/80mph out the box, so i have a fairly good understanding of batteries. (it may have a methanol/nitro fueled engine but it still has batteries in the electronics)

anyway, there is various tricks they use in the battery industry.

as some already found out, most "D" cells are a C cell in a larger case. you can feel how light the battery is.

if you buy quality rechargable "D" cells they are 100% packed solid and have a substantial amount of weight in them. its like lifting a chunk of steel

average D size = 2000mah C cell, or worse
a rechargable QUALITY D = up to 10,000 mah! (yes, 10 amp hour, over 5x the life)

but wait, theres still more and it gets better coz this is a doozy!
ya know those big ol dolphin torch batteries? the one which is like a very large block with a spring on the top for a terminal?

cut the top off one, you will score yourself 32 (yes, thirty two) AA batteries!

As much as I want to dive in with my 0.02, I'm not even going to get myself worked up.

I found out long ago that big American companies don't want to sell quality products that last. It's hard to fight corporate America on anything when they have all the $$ and power.

I'd better stop as I can feel it welling up inside me.....

Originally posted by Extralien

From my understanding of battery power (please anyone correct me if I'm wrong) a 1.5V AA with 2500mAh will last as long as a 1.5V D with 2500mAh.

So why the difference in size is needed is a dispute seeing as you can buy jackets to resize the batteries of choice. Which brings us back to the "conspiracy" of energizer by packaging an AA in a D jacket and selling it as a D rather than its true form of an AA.

its not a conspiracy. yes, a 2500mah C = the same life as a 2500 D and both output 1.5volts
why put a C in a d size shell? because you cannot "1/4 pack" a D cell case and leave the other 3/4 of the D casing empty.
and most people do not know anything about batteries or how to go and get the adaptors, and have no idea at all about voltage/milliamp hour, etc.

so, they get a c size batt and put it in a D size case. cheeky? maybe, clever? definately, but not a rip off, not in the slightest.

a proper *fully packed* D batt outputs as much as 10,000mah but they cost at least 2-3x more than a regular 2000mah "C in a D case" battery.

(best quality C cells = 3600mah. best quality D cell = 10,000mah)

effectively, your paying for the "packing" and technology that goes into the cells capacity. it has nothing to do with you paying for the cell's physical size at all.

as mah' rating in the batt goes up, so does the price.
this is the same for all cells, including AA.
i can get a AA 900mah nicad for about 2 or 3 bucks. but i'd rather buy a 3000mah nimh AA for $6.

much like the (false) bag of chips theory claimed on page 1. your paying for product WEIGHT, the air weighs nothing but stops your chips getting crushed. (you think its a jip, but its a false claim on your behalf)

your D battery maybe "half air" aswell, but your paying for the contents in the C.
oh and it costs extra time and money to pack a C in a D case, so of course they charge extra for that hassle.

Originally posted by ExtralienPlease also don't forget to take into consideration your electricity bill for the actual recharging of all these batteries.

If 1 battery takes approximately 30 minutes to charge, what is the electrical power usage to charge the battery.
Multiply that by however many batteries of the same size and storage capacity and, lets say the maximum charegable life of 1000 charges and you may find your electric bill might cost more than buying disposables.

Perhaps someone can be so kind to get some figures for that.

you need to look at the output of the charger and the capacity of the battery for true comparison.

for argument sake, lets go with oh... a 2000mah "D" size rechargeable batt for a nice round simple number

most cheap chargers (eg eveready/energiser sold in your local kmart) are absolute #. sorry, but its the truth.
They have a set output and trickle charge your battery at a measly 100mah. anything less than about 70mah is NOT GOOD for rechargeables as the input is so low they cannot detect a proper charge being input due to resistance.

so, you have 2000mah capacity, it'll take you 20 hours @ a measly 100mah = the full 2000mah charge.

but if you spend $40+ on a peak detect charger it will do that same battery at about 1amp (1000mah) and in 2 hours your battery is done.
it used the same amount of power but charged in less time. AND being peak detect it wont shut off till its 100% charged.

edit: oh, and being a quality charger it will charge ANY battery you use around home. AAA, AA, C, D, 9v. you name it.

those wall chargers usually need timing, never put out the full 100mah, and you NEVER get a perfect charge which makes your batteries appear weaker than they really are (like 1/2 filling your car then complaining a full tank isnt getting good mileage)

nicads = memory effect. ideally you need to cycle your batteries a few times before they come up to full power as they have sat on a shelf unused since production.
nicads dont like being topped up, they prefer full charge/discharge (called a full cycle)

nimh = no memory effect, so they can be topped up as needed. but a good cycle is recommended now and then for optimum life.
however, nimh do discharge when not in use but it is *extremely* minimal loss if your buying quality batteries.

so a few basic rechargeable tips are

buy quality batteries (fact: sony + panasonic are the WORLD LEADERS in rechargeable batteries)

buy a good quality Peak Detect charger to give them a good strong charge everytime.

and remember: your paying for the MAH (packing) not the case size.



[edit on 8/1/08 by Obliv_au]

Usually, with a higher capacity battery, you can only recharge for around 500-600 times compared to 1,000 times for a lower capacity battery. Quick charging the battery may shorten the number of times you can recharge it.

Originally posted by amitheone
Usually, with a higher capacity battery, you can only recharge for around 500-600 times compared to 1,000 times for a lower capacity battery. Quick charging the battery may shorten the number of times you can recharge it.

as long as your charge rate never exceeds its capacity, you will never shorten life.

so, a 2000mah battery can be fast charged safely for 1 hour at a maximum of 2amps ( 1hour x 2amp input = 2000mah charge)

but yes, some of those "charges in 30min" use cheap batteries and a high input rate to compensate. theyre not what i'd recommend anyway.


----------------------------

on another note, ive just made up this crude chart to try explain voltage + output more clearly of Disposable Vs rechargeable.

this chart assumes your comparing the same batt in a rechargeable Vs disposable (eg, both 2000mah "AA" batteries)




with a quality panasonic rechargeable and good peak detect charger, my AA's come up to 1.4 volts. slightly higher than the 1.2 theyre rated at because the batteries capacity "peaks" with every charge.



[edit on 8/1/08 by Obliv_au]

reply to post by Obliv_au


Thanks for the info.

Can connecting two 2500mah batteries in parallel, doubles the life? Now, it becomes a high capacity 5000mah battery.

Much thanks to 'thebeard' and to 'Obliv_au' for their great information. Every bit helps us put things into perspective for everyone.

Regarding the size being a 'mind trick' for most, it does make you wonder why they build devices to take different sized batteries.

If two different sized batteries have the same mAh then why make the sizes different?

You'd think that a bigger battery would have a higher mAh, in theory, yet this is not the case as we're all discovering.
Why? What's the point of all the extra materials making something bigger when it works exactly the same in a smaller size?

Profit? Is that the point as to why this is done?
If so, then that is the scam part of it all. IMO.

As Obliv_au states in his above post "most people do not know anything about batteries or how to go and get the adaptors, and have no idea at all about voltage/milliamp hour, etc."

Why not? It's not due to them being dumb. I feel it's more to do with these big companies not telling us, not advertising the resize battery jackets. I only found out about these jackets today whilst researching one of my earlier posts, although the info had just been posted whilst i was writing my post.

With all the different mAh ratings available, why do we not see these differences readily available in the shops? Why is the information regardig the differences not readily displayed in places where batteries are sold.

If your torch only needs 900mAh for 8 hours work, but your ipod needs 2500mAh for 8 hours work, why do the battery sellers not give this info?
People could save themselves some cash if they didn't buy the 2500 mAh for their torch if they knew they only needed the 900's

Or, without realising, they buy 900's for their ipod and 2 hours later they gotta buy more... why did they buy 900's? Maybe that's all the shop had.
To most, a battery is a battery.
If your device requires two AA the that's what you buy.

I personally cannot remember ever buying a device that stated I needed 2 AA with 2500 mAh for the device to run at it's most stable ability. I don't ever remember reading how a higher mAh will give you more 'play' time.

I for one would be happy to fork out on a 10,000mAh rechargeable than a 2500.

From the information posted in this thread, spending out on some good mAh and a good charger is worth every penny/cent.

Once again all, thanks for all the time and knowledge you've put in to this. I've learnt a few things and I'm glad for that.

These battery companies still seem to have a nice little earner going on and it would seem they want it to continue rather than provide a good, first class service to the people and the environment.

Every charge and discharge shortens a battery's life. You can charge as fast as a battery will take it without doing physical damage but you will not get the rated current back out. The slower the charge, the more will be returned. Also note the standard battery rating is a 20 hour capacity. That is if the battery is discharged over a period of 20 hours, XXAh is what you can generally expect. So a 2000mAh battery with a 100mA load should run for 20 hours (minus efficiency losses). Some manufacturers will use a longer time to inflate their rating.

NiMH is also susceptible to memory effect from improper charging but not as severe as NiCad.

I have some PowerEX batteries and they're pretty good for the price except for a quick self discharge. 3-4weeks for a fully charged 2700mAh AA to drain to 0.8V.

Oh, and as has been pretty well [detailed] this is nothing new. But the bunny sucks anyway. Shoot it.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by apc]

This is one of the few times I have to speak up against ignorance and against the tide. You are -CLEARLY- getting the same mAs from a AA battery as you are from a D when you buy these packages. Nothing misleading at all. Most flashlights that take them, as others have said, cannot take AAs because there would be no support on the sides. Are these grossly overpriced for what you get? Hell yea. Misleading? Not if you can read. And has anyone opened up the average D battery? Some are C's but I wouldn't be suprised if you saw AAs too for some of the off brands. The letter equates to physical size of the battery, nothing more, nothing less.

One other thing .... what else is even made today for the -AVERAGE- consumer that even takes D's? A flashlight, perhaps a radio. That's it. If my D battery lasts a tenth of the time that a standard D does but I can recharge it multiple times, then I don't care if I could be getting a battery that lasts a sixth. Especially for things like flashlights that draw little current/are used occasionally to begin with.

I'm definitely not a fan of corporate mistruth/swindles and I steer well clear of big corp these days, but let's be fair here.

Thanks for the tip, I should do the same thing and start my own battery business and be evil like them.


Luckly I don't buy size D, but I do buy AAA and AA, let me know if they cheating us on those too.


I will not feel sorry when Energizer goes down they got what they deserve for taking advantage of consumers. I know if I steal something from them I will be going to jail, so payback its a B****.

Originally posted by amitheone
reply to post by Obliv_au

 

Thanks for the info.

Can connecting two 2500mah batteries in parallel, doubles the life? Now, it becomes a high capacity 5000mah battery.

yes. however make sure the application can handle it.

eg: a mate got his kid a little cheapo RC hovercraft. it came with a batt pack (AAA's) but lasted about 10mins after charging.

i suggested a better pack, so he got much higher Mah batt's and we made one.

the thing ran for like 35min non stop and then the motor burnt out because it overheated.
i guess the company designed it for 10mins use then the motor cools while the pack charges for an hour or two.

---------

basically, the different battery types can handle different current loads put on them.. a small AA will get hot quicker than a C or D.
ive seen good quality batts overheat and "pop" due to the high draw rates put on them due to RC'ers having very expensive digital transmitters (the controller in lamens terms)
these radio's really give a good quality set of 8x AA battery a work out.

some batt types handle the load better than others.

Again, Obliv comes up with some good info.

I never knew a battery could pop form heavy use like that.

Mind you, half the stuff that has been said in this thread I never knew.
Just goes to show what they taught me at school.
Didn't even learn some of this stuff whilst training to be a car mechanic.

I'm almost flabbergasted by the amount of info that is deliberately left out or hidden so that the consumer pays the max.

Looking at the internet now and we can all easily find the info we needed to make this thread, yet if it wasn't for this thread starting, myself and others may never have known any of this.

Thankfully though, I'll be a lot more interested in the power I buy for anything I need power for.

I used to buy Duracell, until I discovered Varta. Then Varta were not so easily available so it was a toss between duracell and eveready, until energizer came out.

Now, all three of those are out the window and I'll be looking at other brands completely. I MIGHT try powermax, or I'll try some of the others I've seen in my searches (which you can see in some of the links I provided).

I was just thinking how you can go shopping and find 15 brands of jam, 55 brands of cheeses, 6 brands of toilet rolls, 12 brands of corned beef, yet only 1 or 2 brands of batteries in the same store.

its been an interesting topic, something a bit more down to earth with a lot of knowledge + facts already out there instead of heresay and speculation as per usual threads

it is extremely rare a nicad /nimh will actually pop under load, its more common for them to go due to charging them too fast (on adjustable input chargers) or for too long (non peak detect chargers)

i havent tried the 32x AA's from a lantern battery trick i posted earlier because i have several dozen rechargeables, but i do wonder what the quality of them is like compared to a decent battery.
(eg lantern batts Vs eveready, duracell or energiser)

now that would be something worth finding out. usually at the cheap shops the big sledge of 20 batteries for a low low $3.00 are usually absolute garbage with almost zero charge to begin with. thats about the only thing that would come close to the 32xaa's as far as value goes.

Uk traffic works used to have these portable amber flashing lamps on the posts of the works barriers. I remember lots of people used to keep stealing them to get the big square battery from inside.

I know a few people who used to use the battery for their lights whilst fishing at night due to the amount of hours you could get out of them.

now we know why these were used.

I would suspect that the types of battery inside are of the industrial kind rather than what the public gets. as there's not many household appliance that require such big batteries.

Might very well be worth further investigation.