Who has the best Special Forces ?

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
that Australia who has never had a real war

Australia took part in WW2

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
has better SF how would you explain the fact that IDF's Sayeret Matkal kicked the *** of Delta Force and British and Australian SAS in the last training in USA? And the previous? and the before previous?

Yes, I would like to see the links to this as well. As we say here on ATS the proof is in the pudding. and the Sayeret Matkal, arent these the guys that alowed Peres to be assasinated?

From what I have seen, the ISF seem pretty good at beating up Palistinians and thier snipers are first rate when targeting West bank children. Beyond that who knows how good any of them are untill they play each other for keeps eh? Otherwise this is simply a my dad can beat up your dad with no end in sight.



[edit on 10/31/04 by FredT]

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV


BTW, when was the last time the SAS/SBS took over a ship without firing even a single shot? (or took over a ship at all)

[edit on 30/10/04 by Transc3ndent]

no they havnt boarded a ship because no ship has tried to do anything like that.
BTW the SBS has not realsed 99% of their operations ethier.
i want to say this is a pointless thread because everyone has their own veiws and opinions. every SF has its paticular area that it can't be beaten at.
take isreal, your forces rule the desert because they live there.
the sweedish SF troops are the masters at snow warfare, the RM go there to train because they have so much exsperience with it.
the american SEAL's are exsperts at warm water and generaly jungle like terrain.
the american delta force is exsperts at CQB.
the SBS/SAS are good at wokring in harsh enviroments and reacon.
the ASAS are good at jungle and pretty much every terrian. helps to have every terrain on the earth within a few hours flying , lucky gits

[edit on 31-10-2004 by devilwasp]

Did you know, the largest airforce in the world according to the number of combat jets is.

1. Russia-3,996
2. China-3,520
3. United States-2,598
4. India-774
5. Taiwan-598
6. North Korea-593
7. Egypt-583
8. France-531
9. Ukraine-521
10. South Korea-488

Bibliography: ESSENTIAL Militaria; Nicholas Hobbes.

Sorry to make you feel sad but Israeli Air Force has for now 750-800 fighter planes, which 650 are advanced fighter planes.

And for those who called me to provide proofs, where are your proofs the Australian are better? How can a SF that gets less training, much less real expirience, can be better than the 6 days at week trained Israeli SF, who has day to day real combat expirience, and every day need to save state of Israel from different threats? Israeli SF are teh top at intelligence collecting, and top at urban and desert fighting.
You want links? Allright i am going to give you links and proofs.

Oh by the way, Sayeret Matkal is not the Shabak, and wasnt the intelligence that failed to stop the assaination of Itshak Rabin (and not Shimon Peres), that was murdered by an Israeli and not an outsider enemy.
This has no connection to IDF's SF.
The reason you hear so little about IDF's SF is because they are top secret, Israel keeps its security tight, and sure they wont go and write books, as also they were never caught or failed a mission- another reason why they are unknown for their work. Those who talk about teh training of IDF's SF and say they arent good- thats weird- are yoy the a top persnoel in IDF? starnge how you know such a lot of things about Sayeret Matkal, when they are more secret than the Mossad. The things me and you know about them is maybe 1%. Proofs will be provided now

Originally posted by UK Wizard

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
that Australia who has never had a real war

Australia took part in WW2

Let's see. The Sudan (got a little revenge for "Chinese" Gordon), although strictly speaking that was New South Wales as it was only one colony, prior to Federation.

The Boer War.

WW1 (The first ANZACs)

WW2 (The first time we hit the jungle, and the first army to hand the Japanese a defeat, the third time we hit the desert and again the first army to hand the Germans a defeat)

Korea.

Malayan insurgency.

Indonesian "Confrontation".

Vietnam.

Afghanistan.

Iraq.

Plus UN deployments to Somalia, Cambodia, Mozambique etc.

Plus "other" peacekeeping deployments to East Timor and the Solomon Islands.

Our combat experience is far more varied than yours and our combat record longer and more impressive than yours.

What do you think of the FBI's HRT? Post-Waco, that is.

Pre-Waco FBI's HRTeam was pretty damn good.

The problem with Waco was the ATF was serving a warrant and the rules of engagement allied with the terrain sucked.

Then when the G-men went in they weren't rescuing hostages, they were assaulting an enemy-held strong point under civilian ROEs. Plus the use of non-lethal options compounded to cause problems. The CS residue was flammable and they used so much of the stuff it was falling like snow. Prior to Waco I didn't know the residue was flammable and I read WAY too much.

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
Israeli Sayeret Matkal is the best special force in the world, leaving SAS and Delta Force way behind. The fact you hear very little about them, is due to their top secret missions and secret existment, but the fact is that State of Israel doesnt get bombed by terrorists every day, is also due the work of Syeret Matkal.

I hate to say it, but have you watched the news lately?

OK, Palestinians have changed tactics and suicide bombers are the hardest to prevent, but Israel is being hit damn near every day. Get some different evidence.

Not necessarily arguing with your claim 'though!

Yes as an Israeli I have watched the news lately and the last terror attack was a month ago, and before that it was 2 months ago, and before that there were 6 months of quiet, and the quite is here today too.
the almost every day terror attacks were in 2001 and 2002, after IDF and mossad quickly took control over the situation and the result is 50% less attacks in 2003 and 85% less attaks in 2004.
Your media need to check its cameras perhaps?

You went into Gaza in response to a rocket attack that killed two kids. There was also a firefight the same weekend when Palestinians crossed "the line" under fog.

Before that the big one was Beersheba. It wasn't six months from that back to the previous one. I work in a newsroom, five days a week.

Those are only the big ones. There was an attack on a checkpoint that was small. There were IDF soldiers dying in Gaza and the West Bank weekly.

The same week you went into Gaza in response to the Qassam Rocket attack a Merkava killed a group of school kids in their schoolground with a shot from the main gun. That takes some skill.

Originally posted by waternorth
What do you think of the FBI's HRT? Post-Waco, that is.

Not bad. there is a book called ' COLD ZERO ' by a member of the HRT he was a sniper.

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot

And for those who called me to provide proofs, where are your proofs the Australian are better? How can a SF that gets less training, much less real expirience, can be better than the 6 days at week trained Israeli SF, who has day to day real combat expirience, and every day need to save state of Israel from different threats? Israeli SF are teh top at intelligence collecting, and top at urban and desert fighting.
You want links? Allright i am going to give you links and proofs.

well does isreal have a jungle near or in its borders?
does it have snow near or in its borders?
does it even have grass near or in its borders?
does it have any marsh,rainy or basically bad european weatherin its borders?
isreal only has exsperience at fighitng against palistinains not any one else since when have they been anywhere that WASNT sand?
also how can you have proof on these things YET you say they are so secret. does this mean you are part of them and if so then you would be letting out military secrets which is a crime.

just a friendly remined to stay on TOPIC for this thread. It is a length discussion of SF around the world, NOT an aircraft discussion etc. Also, Australias war record (as good as it is) is not on topic either.

Thanks
FredT

Originally posted by FredT
just a friendly remined to stay on TOPIC for this thread. It is a length discussion of SF around the world, NOT an aircraft discussion etc. Also, Australias war record (as good as it is) is not on topic either.

Thanks
FredT

As a matter of fact it is, given that war records are being used as "evidence" to back up claims by just about everybody posting. Plus, someone asked a question needing a direct answer.

Thats why I did not point it out directly. However, general war records without specifing the actions af SF in those conflicts is OFF TOPIC. I agree it was a direct question and it was answered. No back to the topic if we may.

FredT

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Originally posted by UK Wizard

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
that Australia who has never had a real war

Australia took part in WW2

Let's see. The Sudan (got a little revenge for "Chinese" Gordon), although strictly speaking that was New South Wales as it was only one colony, prior to Federation.

The Boer War.

WW1 (The first ANZACs)

WW2 (The first time we hit the jungle, and the first army to hand the Japanese a defeat, the third time we hit the desert and again the first army to hand the Germans a defeat)

Korea.

Malayan insurgency.

Indonesian "Confrontation".

Vietnam.

Afghanistan.

Iraq.

Plus UN deployments to Somalia, Cambodia, Mozambique etc.

Plus "other" peacekeeping deployments to East Timor and the Solomon Islands.

Our combat experience is far more varied than yours and our combat record longer and more impressive than yours.

Allright, did Australia ever expririenced a threat of destruction? I think not.
Did Australia ever expirienced a threat of destruction in a major war every decade? I think not.
Does Australia have 35 enemy countries that want them all to be dead? I think not.
Does Australia has amazing military world records? I think not. (Check CIA's worlds fact book)
Does Australian SF have training 6 days a week plus real combat missions every day because their enemies want them to be all dead? I think not.
Did Australian army won a war in 6 days and made the size of Australia 4 times larger, destrying fully the air forces of 3 countries in 9 hours? I think not.
Well Israel did and does.

In we are going to talk about combat expirience and records, here are some of the Israelis:
1936-1939 the winning over the arabic terrorism in land of Israel.
1948- the amazing victory over 7 full militaristic countries, when state of Israel was 1 days old, without good trained or equipped or large or anything close to a real army.
1956-the war over the suez channel.
1967-the six days war- simply amazing victory in all the fronts over 5 countires.
1973- 5 arabs countries tried to sneak a large attack, equipped with top soviet weaopns and size. yet they once again they lost.
1982-1985 war against terrorism in Lebanon.
1985-2000 the second piriot of the war in Lebanon.
1981- the detsruction of the Iraqi nuclear reactor in Bagdad.
1987 the terror wave of palestinians, as called intifada.
1991- gulf war, IDF's special forces were there, made secret operations and collected intelligence without anyone who discoeverd them till today.
2000- the new ara of terrorism, named the second intifada.

Now during and betwin those years, daily, there were operations in enemy countries by IDF's SF, and still true for today, every day, every hour, plus dealing with terrorism for about 57 years.
And there were militray operations and small wars every month betwin the years 1948 and 1973.

Please stop telling weird things that Australia has more expirience, when it was never really threatened, sure not in a daily and hours basis.
If anyone here has expirience with terrorism and wars, its Israel, the tiny country that about 35 other countries will be happy to destroy it, and trying to do so for more than 57 years, and not a country like Australia who has no enemies.

Yes Australian SAS are great, sure have more expirience in jungle fighting, and sure in the top 5 in the world, but Australian SF simply cannot be more trained or expirienced than the Israelis.
And dont forget that Israeli pilots are also a SF, the best trained together with Sayeret Matkal, and the greatest world's air force operations after world war 2- are mostly made by IAF. (you could read some of them in this topic). There are no other air forces with such records after world war 2.
And as IAF's operations naturally cant be 100% secret, I strongly believe that Sayeret Matkal and other Israeli SF has in the same scale of records, only those are never reported. Especially when they have real missions every day.

My list for top 5 SF:
1) Sayeret Matkal.
2) British SAS.
3) Delta Force.
4) Australian SAS.
5) you decide.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

When was the last time the Royal Navy shot at and sank a USN ship? Wasn't this century. Or the last one.

Syria, Egypt, professional? don't make me laugh.

Otto Skorzeny invented the "dress as the enemy op". Did it at the Ardennes, '44.

Hundreds of untrained idiots will eventually kill a small number of professionals. Professionals look to their safety, idiots don't.

To create terrorists you must first terrorise. Merkavas killing schoolkids is hardly the noble art of war.

Define modern. According to the dictionary it's enything from the industrial revolution on. Therefore everything the RAF has done is in "modern times".

ASAS (not to mention RAR and RNZR and NZSAS) fought in a lot of jungle areas with landmines and improvised booby traps in Malaya, Indonesia and VN, but I guess that doesn't count.

When it comes to urban warfare/streetfighting/street cqb I'll take any regiment in the British Army, let alone 3 Cdo Brigade. They wrote the book in NI. Try out DET 14 for experience.

Royal Navy? wtf?

"Syria, Egypt, proffesional"? Yes, relatively. Its an historical fact that those armies were more proffesional and advanced (relative to that time) than any enemy the US or UK had fought in the last 50 years. If you need some more basic history lessons - you can u2u me.

Sadly, all of your other claims can be easily explained as simple, un-mature, understanding of reality based on your logic, lack of knowledge, and personal interpretations of words.

If you only knew what undercover actions I was talking about, or if you were aware of at least 1/10 of the operations and military actions Israel does (and their reasons), or at least some basic history about Islamic terrorism and that its causes has nothing to do with terrorization - maybe then you would have understoon how pathetic you sound. Until then - have a nice day.

The same week you went into Gaza in response to the Qassam Rocket attack a Merkava killed a group of school kids in their schoolground with a shot from the main gun. That takes some skill.

Yes, kids get hurt. Now why don't you take your fake peace and harmony ideas and go post your bs somewhere else. You don't know a single thing about what Israel does in the territories or why, and you don't know a single thing about Palestinian terrorism and its origins.

All you do is seeing a palestinian child dies and then thinking "ooh, they kill children! no wonder they suffer from terrorism".
Idiot. (yes, you can report me for swearing).

Originally posted by devilwasp
well does isreal have a jungle near or in its borders?

No, is there a jungle in the UK?

does it have snow near or in its borders?

Yes there is, we even have special units for snow areas.

does it even have grass near or in its borders?

lol? what did you think Israel is? desert?

does it have any marsh,rainy or basically bad european weatherin its borders?

Yes, Israel has plenty of marshes and during the winter there are plenty of rains. There are also lots of forests in Israel. But even without that - the future of SF operations is mostly urban fighting and CQB. This is a fact.

isreal only has exsperience at fighitng against palistinains not any one else since when have they been anywhere that WASNT sand?

Fighting terrorists alone is actually more complicated than fighting an army - you can see that by looking at US's status in iraq. But anyway - yes, we had martime operations, and we fought for several years in the woods near lebanon. That alone is probably more experiance in non-desert terrain fighting that both the UK and US currently have.

also how can you have proof on these things YET you say they are so secret. does this mean you are part of them and if so then you would be letting out military secrets which is a crime.

He didn't say anything which is top secret. However, 99% our SF mission (and there are about 300 of those per year) are indeed classified. I cannot point you to any proof, since you don't understand hebrew, and are not aware of some big stories about it which were published in the Israeli media.

Originally posted by weirdo
www.isayeret.com...

So if you guys so good how come you take mandotory IDF personnel that come from civillians into SF.
IDF SF Schools teach only the basic techniques.15-20 months training leaving 1 year to engage in actual combat because of budgetary problems even SF units operators rarely serve more than the IDF Mandotary service.
If Sayeret Matkal & Sayeret Shaldog soilders are so tough why have they refusedto continue the Contact training in there CT course unless the contact combat brutallity level was reduced.Other units with less influence continue to take the abuse in the CT course.
The 1974 Mahalot High School icidant was a bit of an embarresment after 20 civillian hostages were killed in a failed rescue attempt by Sayeret Matkal.
Or the Israelies plan to assinate Saddam Hussein was cancelled after 5 members of Sayeret Matkil were killed when a live missile was fired at them by mistake during the final run of the plan.
Sorry to quote from a web page as l have been out for a few years and never had the pleasure of the Israelies.



[edit on 30-10-2004 by weirdo]

[edit on 30-10-2004 by weirdo]

Heh, I think its quite obvious you didn't realize much of what you've read on Isayeret - and probably didn't want to realize.
IDF SF schools don't have any "regular" courses. Each unit has its own guides, courses, tactics and operations, which are classified. What you read in Isayeret are not SF training routines, but names of schools where the training is done.

The fact people come from civilian to sf (as it happens in almost any other country), and the fact the service is mandatory - is actually another reason why our forces are some of the best in the world. Since EVERYONE (well, most of the people) goes to the army, there is huge motivation and competition among those with the right physical, intellectual and mental abilities. The result is that most SF units can chose from extremely large amounts of people, all of them are motivated, intelligent and have superb fitness. Some people even start training and running all day from the age of 16, only to be accepted to Shayetet 13 or Matkal. There are even special courses for preperation.

Other than that - in some units you have to finish army service in SF unit in order to be qualified for the selection course. YAMAM, which is probably one of the best CQB and HRT units in the whole world - is one of those units.

The thing with the LOTAR (hebrew name for CT) course you mentioned has to do with the extreme level of brutality that was used. In some cases soldiers even sued the army for the physical damage which was done to them in those courses. Other ct units countinue to suffer because their CT course is much different. And believe me - you know very little about whats really going on in those courses. (oh and btw, last time USMC Recon trained in Israel and was tought by israeli SF - I heard some rumors on the low quality of them - compared to our SF, and that they actually suffered and whined much more during the training than any other Israeli unit. I know this sounds like bs to you, but I believe its much more closer to reality than your pathetic claims, and perhaps I can even prove it)


Yes, the plan to assasinate Saddam Hussein was cancled because of Zeelim B desaster. Whats your point?


As a fact - today Israels SF are considered to be the top in the world. This is not a one-sided claim, but a common believe of military experts in both the UK, US and even Russia (which even expressed a will to train with us).
In recent years almost every major country is intereted in learing Israeli developed tactics and techniques, and buying Israeli developed weapons and equipment (which is used my SF). You can see a large number of experts and military people coming from many countries (including the US) in order to learn from us, simply because we are one of the most experianced (in modern combat), motivated, battle proven and advanced forces on earth. Today our SF forces enjoy the most advanced and efficient equipment and training in the world, and this fact is proven through the hunderds of successful SF operations Israel had done in recent years - some of them (like taking over the Karin A ship) were even considered by foreign military experts to be almost impossible.

Its sad to see people basing their knowledge on their hatred towards Israel - which by itself is based on ignorance, or on the fact they ignorantly refuse to believe any force is better than theirs.

I think you all should all be ashamed of yourself.


[edit on 1/11/04 by Transc3ndent]

Isn't it?

[edit on 1-11-2004 by IAFthunderpilot]

Proof of Israeli units in snowy areas (mt Hermon):
Ignore the red face

Here is a definition for Israeli SF, picked up randomly from the most reliable sites over the web:
"The ISF have a worldwide reputation as one of the best in their fields, especially in counter-terrorism. Many of the world's security experts, as well as inventors of security technology, are Israelis who trained and served many years in the ISF. Despite working within tight budgets, the ISF still performs at the highest levels. The ISF is known for its creativity and innovation in resolving very difficult situations. Some Israeli SF units such as Sayeret Matkal, Shayetet 13 (naval commando) and the YAMAM are considered to be among the best special forces units in the world (along with the British SAS and the US Delta Force)."

www.wordiq.com...