Who has the best Special Forces ?

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
No, is there a jungle in the UK?

no it doesnt , one of the reasons the UK's SF go and train in other countries.

Yes there is, we even have special units for snow areas.

really?

lol? what did you think Israel is? desert?

yes i did actually but seems i was wrong, hmm there was i thinking american geography was bad !

Yes, Israel has plenty of marshes and during the winter there are plenty of rains. There are also lots of forests in Israel. But even without that - the future of SF operations is mostly urban fighting and CQB. This is a fact.

thats not what i asked does it have COLD marshes as in ones where the water is frozen?

Fighting terrorists alone is actually more complicated than fighting an army - you can see that by looking at US's status in iraq. But anyway - yes, we had martime operations, and we fought for several years in the woods near lebanon. That alone is probably more experiance in non-desert terrain fighting that both the UK and US currently have.

yes i know fighitng terrorists is difficult hell britains had its share with the NI thing.
so the balklands and falklands where desert?

He didn't say anything which is top secret. However, 99% our SF mission (and there are about 300 of those per year) are indeed classified. I cannot point you to any proof, since you don't understand hebrew, and are not aware of some big stories about it which were published in the Israeli media.

so classified is not the same as secret?
please exsplain your version of english to me.
why publish your countries SF activities?

I think you all should all be ashamed of yourself.

for questioning your military's SF?
As pupils we are taught to question everything. Be it the answer to a problem or to how something works. It's our nature to question everything and anything.




[edit on 1-11-2004 by devilwasp]

[edit on 1-11-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
www.wordiq.com...

This is no better that citing someones Web Blog. Really now your gonna have to do better than that.

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
Its sad to see people basing their knowledge on their hatred towards Israel - which by itself is based on ignorance, or on the fact they ignorantly refuse to believe any force is better than theirs.I think you all should all be ashamed of yourself.

Hmmm, why is is that whenever anything about Isreal is questioned, hatred or worse the Anti-S word is drawn like a gun. Just beciase we do not see your point of view or agree with the statements you have made does not imply anything. You should be ashamed for trying to pin lables on us.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
Its sad to see people basing their knowledge on their hatred towards Israel - which by itself is based on ignorance, or on the fact they ignorantly refuse to believe any force is better than theirs.I think you all should all be ashamed of yourself.

Hmmm, why is is that whenever anything about Isreal is questioned, hatred or worse the Anti-S word is drawn like a gun. Just beciase we do not see your point of view or agree with the statements you have made does not imply anything. You should be ashamed for trying to pin lables on us.

Please, give me a break. While your claim is true in some cases, I think its becoming even more common to say it that actually calling people antisemites. In this case its a bit of a puzzle as to why you said it, because the claims of many people in this thread against Israeli SF were mostly based on the believe Israel murders children for fun.

With all the respect, claims like "your SF are only good in killing children" and other similar things people said, are nothing but hatred.

You should also try to avoid writing common claims as a habit, because sometimes they aren't really relevent.

Originally posted by devilwasp

so classified is not the same as secret?
please exsplain your version of english to me.
why publish your countries SF activities?

for questioning your military's SF?
As pupils we are taught to question everything. Be it the answer to a problem or to how something works. It's our nature to question everything and anything.
[edit on 1-11-2004 by devilwasp]

No, classified and top secret (or just secret) is the same. And since 99% of our SF missions in recent years are classified - its a crime to talk about it, and no one did.

My point was that IAFThunderPilot didn't say anything classified because he didn't described specific secret Israeli operations, and to be honest I don't even think he knows anything about them (and neither do I).

as to my comment about being ashamed: Its always good to question your believes and things you see and hear, however, what people did in this therad was critisizing Israeli SF without even knowing what they do, when they do it or how. Some people even based their whole claims against ISF on their believe that Israels interests unclude killing Palestinian children. Yes, I do think think people should be ashamed for that.

About the frozen marshes and jungle - we don't have those in Israel, but some of our units train abroad as well.

I must add that you do seem like an intelligent person devilwasp, and one who is willing to question his believes. I'm happy there are people like you in ATS, I just hope there will be more.



[edit on 1/11/04 by Transc3ndent]

Originally posted by Transc3ndent


No, classified and top secret (or just secret) is the same. And since 99% of our SF missions in recent years are classified - its a crime to talk about it, and no one did.

in recent years so its ok to talk about them NOW?

My point was that IAFThunderPilot didn't say anything classified because he didn't described specific secret Israeli operations, and to be honest I don't even think he knows anything about them (and neither do I).

no but he did say what they did which does breka the classified law. everything is classified not just bits.

as to my comment about being ashamed: Its always good to question your believes and things you see and hear, however, what people did in this therad was critisizing Israeli SF without even knowing what they do, when they do it or how. Some people even based their whole claims against ISF on their believe that Israels interests unclude killing Palestinian children. Yes, I do think think people should be ashamed for that.

they cant help by basing thier views on the facts they have. they cant be blamed , do you blame a car driver for hitting a dog if its really foggy?

About the frozen marshes and jungle - we don't have those in Israel, but some of our units train abroad as well.

really, where about if you know?

I must add that you do seem like an intelligent person devilwasp, and one who is willing to question his believes. I'm happy there are people like you in ATS, I just hope there will be more.

with all due respect Transc3ndent , i apreciate the compliment but frankly i have been betrayed many a time with false praise. i dont believe you have this in mind but i still cant trust it. sorry.

Heh, I think its quite obvious you didn't realize much of what you've read on Isayeret - and probably didn't want to realize.
IDF SF schools don't have any "regular" courses. Each unit has its own guides, courses, tactics and operations, which are classified. What you read in Isayeret are not SF training routines, but names of schools where the training is done.

The fact people come from civilian to sf (as it happens in almost any other country), and the fact the service is mandatory - is actually another reason why our forces are some of the best in the world. Since EVERYONE (well, most of the people) goes to the army, there is huge motivation and competition among those with the right physical, intellectual and mental abilities. The result is that most SF units can chose from extremely large amounts of people, all of them are motivated, intelligent and have superb fitness. Some people even start training and running all day from the age of 16, only to be accepted to Shayetet 13 or Matkal. There are even special courses for preperation.

Other than that - in some units you have to finish army service in SF unit in order to be qualified for the selection course. YAMAM, which is probably one of the best CQB and HRT units in the whole world - is one of those units.

The thing with the LOTAR (hebrew name for CT) course you mentioned has to do with the extreme level of brutality that was used. In some cases soldiers even sued the army for the physical damage which was done to them in those courses. Other ct units countinue to suffer because their CT course is much different. And believe me - you know very little about whats really going on in those courses. (oh and btw, last time USMC Recon trained in Israel and was tought by israeli SF - I heard some rumors on the low quality of them - compared to our SF, and that they actually suffered and whined much more during the training than any other Israeli unit. I know this sounds like bs to you, but I believe its much more closer to reality than your pathetic claims, and perhaps I can even prove it)


Yes, the plan to assasinate Saddam Hussein was cancled because of Zeelim B desaster. Whats your point?


As a fact - today Israels SF are considered to be the top in the world. This is not a one-sided claim, but a common believe of military experts in both the UK, US and even Russia (which even expressed a will to train with us).
In recent years almost every major country is intereted in learing Israeli developed tactics and techniques, and buying Israeli developed weapons and equipment (which is used my SF). You can see a large number of experts and military people coming from many countries (including the US) in order to learn from us, simply because we are one of the most experianced (in modern combat), motivated, battle proven and advanced forces on earth. Today our SF forces enjoy the most advanced and efficient equipment and training in the world, and this fact is proven through the hunderds of successful SF operations Israel had done in recent years - some of them (like taking over the Karin A ship) were even considered by foreign military experts to be almost impossible.

Its sad to see people basing their knowledge on their hatred towards Israel - which by itself is based on ignorance, or on the fact they ignorantly refuse to believe any force is better than theirs.

I think you all should all be ashamed of yourself.


[edit on 1/11/04 by Transc3ndent]

Nobody on hear hates Israel.We just hate people who will not have an open mind.IAF guy has three warnings already.Totally idiot doing your countries reputation as a bunch of hot head ego maniacs.Plus you killed Christ Duh big mistake


Isn`t it true your SF are civillians forced into service.You guys choose SF but your training obviously starts with basic military skills advancing to Sf training.Brish SAS are taken fron serving soliders and are only accepted via recommendation from CO and having been in service for at least three yrs.Once Badged a trooper than has ongoing spec training with Sqadron for anything from 3-5yrs before accepted s fully trained a specialised in to his choosen field ie medic,explosives,signals,sniper, each member has cross training incase another member injured.

Can you do that in 3yrs from basic to SF.

Saddam total mess.Shows lack of training and operational understanding of group movement and planning


Glad you disscussion as the other monkey needs putting back in his cage

[edit on 1-11-2004 by weirdo]

The Best Special Forces: South African Recce's

Words Spoken by Great Men

"Give me 20 divisions American soldiers and I will beach Europe. Give me 15 consisting of Englishmen,and I will advance to the borders of Berlin. Give me two divisions of those marvelous fighting Boers (Meaning Farmer,originating from the Boer War) and I will remove Germany from the face of the earth."


Field Marshall Bernard L. Montgomery,Commander of the Allied forces during WWII.

"The Americans fight for a free world,the English mostly for honor and glory and medals,the French and Canadians decide too late that they have to participate.The Italians are too scared to fight;the Russians have no choice.The Germans for the Fatherland. The Boers?Those sons of bitches fight for the hell of it!"

- American General,George "Guts and Glory" Patton -

Long read:

The South African Special Forces have amongst their ranks the most experienced and combat-experienced Operators in the world. They have conducted combat Operations in virtually all and any terrain types � desert, stone desert, mountains, bush, forest, jungle, swamp, ocean, rivers, urban and more. They have deployed by land, sea and air � in every possible application of these deployments. During the Cold War conflicts, they have walked for distances of over 1000 kilometres behind enemy lines, and infiltrated, and remained in concealment, right inside enemy camps, for days without being detected. They have conducted offensive operations to attack fixed positions of enemy soldiers � while outnumbered 50 to 100 to one. Using other means of deployment, they have conducted reconnaissance or raids on enemy positions more than 2000 kilometres behind enemy lines.

More than 95% of all Special Forces are carried out behind enemy lines. During the Angola war � with the enemy having total air superiority � this entailed that there was no possibility of support, resupply or evacuation once in, and the Operators were totally isolated and on their own until they exfiltrated.

The South African Special Forces have faced the most varied enemy forces of our modern times, including, during the Cold War, regular forces of the Soviet Red Army, the Soviet Special Forces (Spetsnatz), other Soviet and Warsaw Pact regular army Special Forces Units from Ukraine, Byelorussia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Bulgaria and East Germany.


They have also faced the regular and Special Forces from other countries that aligned themselves to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, including Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam and others.

Special Forces operations are the most complex and detailed operations in any military environment. The reconnaissance, planning and rehearsals undertaken before initiating a complex operation can take weeks or months, and the phases and actions during such operations are planned to within minutes � and sometimes seconds.

Other than this, Special Forces Operators are at all times ready to face random situations while undertaking an operation or reconnaissance, as one can never know when � through circumstance or other � one can unexpectedly come up against the enemy and be compromised, or find a changed situation on target. To cater for this, all possible eventualities are taken into account in the planning prior to an operation, and specific drills, routines and actions are devised to cater for any situation or emergency that may arise.

The command and control of Special Forces Teams is also very well structured. Such command and control would not always follow the Regular Army system of rank, as within Special Forces there is a unique command and control structure consisting of Team Leader and Team 2IC, Group Commander and Group 2IC, and Commando OC and 2IC. The occupation of these leadership positions � especially on Team and Group level � are dictated by ability and experience as well as rank, and this could result in persons of a senior or equal rank being placed a Team or Group commanded by a rank junior or equal to them � but who had more command and operational experience.

Please, if you are talking about mistakes now, how about Bravo 2-0? wasn't that a huge mistake too?

If you judge SFs by their mistakes, it only shows you have never learnt that as poeple, same then SFs learn from tehir mistakes and thats the greateness. As I wont go and say SAS is not a good SF because the Bravo 2-0 incident, same you shouldn't go and blame Sayeret Matkal for being a not good SF because the Sadam Husein inccident.

And Transc3ndent has my full backup.

Let's be realistic, how can you judge a special force when you know 0.000001% of its overal work, training methods, expirience, etc, because it is 99% secret since 1950s? As also you claiming the oposite claims of military experts around the world, (I have already posted one claim and can add much more) so how can you aprove this fact too?
As also, you sure can argue about the best special force in the world, but saying IDF's SFs aren't in the same class of British SF and American and Australian SF, simply shows your luck out of knowledge and ignorance from eaven military experts and military facts, and thats a pitty.

Also consider the fact that Sayeret Matkal was based on British SAS when it was established in the 50s, and the training methods of Sayeret Matkal are pretty similar (with of course few changings for specific battle zones) to the SASs of both UK and Australia




[edit on 1-11-2004 by IAFthunderpilot]

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
Here is a definition for Israeli SF, picked up randomly from the most reliable sites over the web:
"The ISF have a worldwide reputation as one of the best in their fields, especially in counter-terrorism. Many of the world's security experts, as well as inventors of security technology, are Israelis who trained and served many years in the ISF. Despite working within tight budgets, the ISF still performs at the highest levels. The ISF is known for its creativity and innovation in resolving very difficult situations. Some Israeli SF units such as Sayeret Matkal, Shayetet 13 (naval commando) and the YAMAM are considered to be among the best special forces units in the world (along with the British SAS and the US Delta Force)."

www.wordiq.com...

Does state in this text that you amongst the best not THE BEST

No, classified and top secret (or just secret) is the same. And since 99% of our SF missions in recent years are classified - its a crime to talk about it, and no one did.

My point was that IAFThunderPilot didn't say anything classified because he didn't described specific secret Israeli operations, and to be honest I don't even think he knows anything about them (and neither do I).





[edit on 1/11/04 by Transc3ndent]

So if 99% of operations are classified your basing your Believes that they are the best on what excectl the 1% that has been documented

Israel and her govt have a long history of cover ups especially when there military have cocked up.

To make a claim based on 1% is ridiculous.

You are the one who making claims based on 1% lol
As also I don't think that you know about militray succeses and failures of US and UK.
Yeah Israel is covering for its failures, thats sure the reason- the failures that we are still here today.

All militray experts says that Israeli Sayeret Matkal as also Sayeret Duvdevan, Sayeret Shaldag and Shayetet-13 are among the best side by side with British and Australian SASs and US Delta Force.

Your claims for it not being truth are based on unknown things, and based on hateness towards Israel (not anti simitism, just hateness).

Exacly- it's secret and you dont see the missions, however you do see the shadow of this success- the existment of state of Israel to this day, when every day ISF must do special missions in the middle east to maintain Israel's safety and existment, when 20+ countries around Israel are wishing for Israel's death.

Show me one militray expert that would claim Israel for having not an A class SFs. You will discover there aren't any

Show me also one military expert that would say that SF x is the best in teh world? no one can say that actually because all SFs are secret if not in 99% then in 80%.

My claims about Israel for having the best SFs are based on my life here, and I know some things about the IDF trust me, Israel wouldn't exist without it's SFs, when its being threatened EVERY DAY.
My calims are also based on statements and research of world wide's militray experts and resreach centers. And finally my claims are based on the expirience that and history of Israeli SF's.

Now, I could be wrong about them being the best, based on my persnoal view, but saying they are not the best in teh same class of British, US, Australian and so SF's is clearly an ignorance, not only from the UNIQ situation that Israel is in for the last 60 years, but also from reserach of military experts, and you could easily make a sreach in google and find articles in militray sites and of militray experts and research centers and watch yourself which are the top special forces of the world. You will always find Israel there.

OK, I know this will probably fall on deaf ears here, but each SF unit is better at some things and worse at some things then other units. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Let's be real here - the Isrealis probably have an edge in counter terrorism - they have more experience then anyone else.

The US has the most resources to draw from - it's just a fact. So our guys are probably more "naturally" gifted (IE more athletic, bigger, stronger etc). We also have the best equipment, so there is another edge to the US.

The SAS have a great training program, but I'm sorry all you UK guys out there - it's not any better then other top units - or so says a Navy SEAL I am friends with WHO HAS TRAINED WITH SAS.

It comes down to the mission, basically. If it involves water, SEALS take the cake. If you want tactical flexability, I would imagine that the SAS might be the best. If you are going counter terrorism, the Mossad or Delta force would probably be you guys. If you want to scare someone, I would use Spetznaz.

Actually,

After a recent conversation I have to back DarthBrawl on this one. A D-Boy told me that he thought the Reccondos were the toughest SF team on earth. He rated the Spetsnaz second.

My conversation with him reminded me of something I read a long time ago. If you want to check out interesting, and relatively unknown cadidates, research the Sealous Scouts.

The RN vs USN question: Someone said something about SBS/SEALs and the ability to take over ships without firing a single shot? The RAN was doing it in the Gulf during the maritime blockade and they were just sailors. But the question referred to the Israeli Navy's sinking of a USN ship. Apparently the Yanks only go in for small friendly-fire episodes.

Oh, and I think the Japs might have been thinking of threatening us when 39 Batallion was fighting them in New Guinea. As for Israel's military history, it's pretty well documented already. Moshe Dayan isn't recognised as one of the world's best tank generals for nothing.

IDF - A national Service force......Well known for indiscipline, one shot one kill (killing journalists) and shooting stone throwing youths.......hmmm.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
My conversation with him reminded me of something I read a long time ago. If you want to check out interesting, and relatively unknown cadidates, research the Sealous Scouts.

I have read a fair bit about the scouts, an incredible unit. How about the Chimio operation ?

As I was in the naval SEALS before i retired, i must say that we have been always told that some of the top special forces and the most expirienced and determined are the Israelis.
I can also add that the US naval SEALS had and has joint excercises with isreali shaytet-13 (hope i spelled it correctly), and those guys are a bunch of damn heavy determined fighters!!!

i dont know if all of their elite units are like the shaytet-13, but if so, then only god will help their enemies!

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Justice Fighter]

link


This is the reason people hate Israel.You may have suicide bombers but there is no justification for killing stone throwing children

[edit on 2-11-2004 by weirdo]

Originally posted by IAFthunderpilot
You are the one who making claims based on 1% lol
As also I don't think that you know about militray succeses and failures of US and UK.

You base that on knowing me personnely and my career.Nope you just writing unfounded claims.Also l not you are backing down a little and now you saying Israel are level with us.Fine l would agree if you had stated that first responses mto you might have been more in agreement.You need to learn some tact and diplomatic skills

I'd say the SAS. They were the first special forces unit in the world. They also wrote the speical forces handbook which many countries speical forces units swear by.

They've proven themselves time and time again..
Both Gulf Wars
Afghanistan (specifically hand to hand combat in the torah bora caves)
Kosovo
Iranian Embassy Siege
World War 2

.. to name but a few.