Is atheism a bona fide religion ?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Atheist is defined as "one who does not believe in the existence of God or Gods and operationally believes that there is no God". Note the use of the word operationally: meaning that I believe such a thing for the purposes of decision making within my life, but I am not 100% certain.

Have you got a source on that?
I'm 'noting' the word operationally but have never seen it in other defintions. My atheism doesn't dictate how I make decisions in my life.. and the word 'operationally' in no way implies that someone is not 100% certain. Seems like you just made that up and tacked on the end. Where are you getting this stuff from?

dictionary.reference.com...
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by riley]

Reply to Riley

I got the info from the link below;

www.skepticfiles.org...

reply to post by kangjia57

thats not a dictionary or an applicable information source as it's just an interview with one athiest. It also seems to be an anti-scientology site.. which I'll have to read now as I'm wondering why the two have been put together..

thanks for providing the link.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by riley]

So does that mean atheists 100% don’t believe in god or God’s existence?

I have met some atheists and to some level even they confirmed Atheist affirms God’s presence. The awareness of God typically surfaces in their consciousness only in times of severe stress.

During the intolerable days of a lingering illness, the eternal moments of a violent and humiliating mugging, or the split second of anticipating the impact of an imminent car crash, when all mankind recognize the reality of human fragility and the lack of human control over destiny. Who does a person ask for help in such conditions other than The Creator?

In such moments of distress, when all human efforts have failed and no element of material existence can provide comfort or rescue, whom else will a person instinctively call upon other than the Creator?

Atheisms are smart and tricky. Its the only belief-system I know that says "its not a belief-system, its fact". Of course this is no different in quality than a christian saying "its the truth".

I happened to read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion", which is like a bible of atheism. The author of the book reveals all of the hallmarks of a fundamentalist:

* Emotionality instead of neutral coolness (constant name-calling and insult toward anyone proposing spiritual realities)

* A fierce "I am right, they are wrong" attitude

* Hundreds of theories presented as "facts".

Am I the only one who is offended by the belief that all life is a pointless coincidence, arisen from dead matter?

* Giving the impression that anyone who believes in a supreme being is an idiot, a bigot, a fanatic, a lunatic, a hate-monger, deluded and whatnot.

As the angry book that it is, it causes anger and is far from being a "peaceful" belief-system.


Not everyone who believes in a supreme creator or higher intelligence is religious





[edit on 18-12-2007 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by kangjia57
So does that mean atheists 100% don’t believe in god or God’s existence?

Where did you get 100% from? You just pulled that from no-where and tacked it onto the end of something you implied was a real definition when it wasn't. Please look at the dictionary definitions again. Of course there would be atheists who aren't sure.. but in actuality that would make them agnostic not atheist. Atheism is not "I don't believe but I don't really know for sure".. that is agnosticism. Hope I've made that clear now.

I have met some atheists and to some level even they confirmed Atheist affirms God’s presence.

Again.. that would make them agnostic..

The awareness of God typically surfaces in their consciousness only in times of severe stress.

Is this yet another 'betya deep down you believe though" ploy? That is not an argument.. and niether is your putting melodramatic hypathetical life and death what if scenarios where atheists suddenly see the light just before they are severly injured or killed. That is just wishful thinking on behalf of one person attempting to convert another.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by riley]

Originally posted by intrepid

So my initial post stands? It's a faith but not a religion?

No. It is not a faith either.

A faith is a belief held in something despite lack of evidence.

Atheists don't "believe" there is no god, they conclude on the basis of logic and reason that there is not one. There is no evidence, so there is no belief.

Atheism is the antithesis of religion and belief. And it is the default position of the human psyche. We're all born atheists. It's not until someone puts the delusion into young impressionable minds and reinforces it over and over again (brainwashing) that a victim -- er, person -- is infected with faith and religion.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Am I the only one who is offended by the belief that all life is a pointless coincidence, arisen from dead matter?

Why be offended?

And why assume we're any more important in the universe than an ant?

I think for some, it's that arrogance self importance that's implicit in many religions, that makes them reject the existence of any supreme deity. Or, at least, reject all organised religion.

As a sceptic I can never state categorically that God does not exist. As an atheist I consider the possiblity to be so miniscule and insignifcant that I don't even think about it.

As far as I see it: if God doesn't exist, it doesn't matter to me; if God does exist, I don't matter to God.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Atheism is the antithesis of religion and belief.

Its the antithesis of religion, to be precise.

And it is the default position of the human psyche. We're all born atheists.

The default position of the human psyche is neither this nor that. I am not born running around saying "There is no god!" or taking in any sort of -ISM.

It's not until someone puts the delusion into young impressionable minds and reinforces it over and over again (brainwashing) that a victim -- er, person -- is infected with faith and religion.

Yes, true. At least as far as religion goes. "Faith" is another matter. When my Dad taught me to swim I was scared of jumping into the water. He told me "Have faith in your ability to stay over water". But I had no evidence or prior reference/experience for that. Nevertheless, I had "faith" and went into the water. I wouldnt say my Dad "infected" my mind.

Originally posted by Essan
And why assume we're any more important in the universe than an ant?

And why assume we aren´t any more important in the universe than an ant? Both cases are a mere assumption....a BELIEF.

reply to post by riley


Interesting how the meaning of Atheism is differently view and interpreted by the believers depending how far that believe extend, be a Christian fundamentalist believe or just a higher source or creator believe and lets not forget the people that do not subscribe to a religion at all.

I truly feel that nobody will ever comes to the same agreement perhaps because we are afteral humans but with individual way of thinking.





[edit on 18-12-2007 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043
I truly feel that nobody will ever comes to the same agreement perhaps because we are after humans but with individual way of thinking.

Of course there will never be a consensus. Hopefully not, even.

We are just enjoying nit-picking with definitions.

Reply to riley

and niether is your putting melodramatic hypathetical life and death what if scenarios where atheists suddenly see the light just before they are severly injured or killed. That is just wishful thinking on behalf of one person attempting to convert another.

Its not about changing minds or converting someone. I am just trying to make you think if you were in one of those situations, what your instinctive reaction would be.

The English poet, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, spoke of the irony of the distressed human appeal in The Cry of the Human:

“And lips say “God be pitiful,”
Who ne’er said, “God be praised.”

The thoughtful Atheist, full of skepticism but fearful of the possibility of the existence of God, may wish to consider the ‘prayer of the skeptic,’ as follows:

“O Lord--if there is a Lord,
Save my soul--if I have a soul.”

reply to post by Skyfloating


And on that I will agree with you, no wonder this forums with this type of threads tends to become aggressive, because many times people tend to only Nick pick.

Actually I am very glad that this one has gone 3 pages of very nice civil debate.

Reply to kangjia:

Utter baloney. The whole "there is no atheists in foxholes" thing is just wishful thinking on the part of the religious, who think that their delusion will win out in the end because they can't imagine life without it.

Atheists don't recant on their deathbed, they don't find god in foxholes. I have been through the worst two years of my life in a custody battle with my ex over my children, and I didn't pray to the sky fairy once.

I find it amusing, though. believers want to be right so badly they project their own delusion onto people who don't have it.

How on earth can a believer understand that an atheist doesn't believe and the fact that they're staring death in the eye doesn't change the fact? Logic and reason don't break down just because the body does.

Attention religious folks: Atheists aren't closet Xians. We don't recant in times of trouble.

I know it's hard to believe because the mind virus is so entrenched in your own psyche you can't think of life without it, but it's true. Just accept it like you accept your invisible friend -- you need no proof or evidence to believe in that. I'm an atheist and I'm actually telling you person to person and not through a cryptic thousands year old book that it's true.

you can take my word for it as a person who actually lives this way, or you can cling to your delusion, if it makes you feel better.

But being deluded does not in any way make you right.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

i'm trying not to go into the mincing word meanings area.

but atheism is the reverse of belief & faith we find in religions.
atheism is more a view point or maybe even an idology than a religion.

being heathen, or an idoloter is a religion
but an atheist or agnostic is not in the religion genre


thanks,

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to riley

and niether is your putting melodramatic hypathetical life and death what if scenarios where atheists suddenly see the light just before they are severly injured or killed. That is just wishful thinking on behalf of one person attempting to convert another.

Its not about changing minds or converting someone.

Yet you offer me a prayer later in your post.. [which could only be to antagonise as offering an atheist prayers is a gesture of publically dismissing their perspective].

I am just trying to make you think if you were in one of those situations, what your instinctive reaction would be.

I've already been in those situations. God did not come to mind.. life or death came to mind. Trying to surive something came to mind.. dealing with the prospect of an end to life came to mind. We all have our own ways of coming to terms with our own mortality and they dont always include god.

The English poet, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, spoke of the irony of the distressed human appeal in The Cry of the Human:

“And lips say “God be pitiful,”
Who ne’er said, “God be praised.”

..so? I've tried to make it clear to you that posing this argument to me is silly. I AM AN ATHEIST. What about that do you not understand?

The thoughtful Atheist, full of skepticism but fearful of the possibility of the existence of God,

How many times do I have to explain why I am an atheist? It is not about fear of god existing.. thats ridiculous. It's about logic and lack of evidence. Please do not presume to tell me what makes me tick.. it's really disrespectful.

may wish to consider the ‘prayer of the skeptic,’ as follows:

“O Lord--if there is a Lord,
Save my soul--if I have a soul.”

..and there it is!
Again.. thats just the desperation of one person attempting to convert another. I see you are inferring I have no soul now [aka no conscience, moral centre etc.]. Why would I want to be 'saved' and act like you? People of good charactor don't go around telling others they are souless.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by riley]

Originally posted by St Udio
but an atheist or agnostic is not in the religion genre

Dont be putting agnostics into the same boat as atheists please.

As an agnostic I have no position one way or the other, while the religious vs. the atheists do have very well defined positions.

One of the most difficult issues for people to understand is the death of our bodies.

Yes we are born to die another day.

It can not be avoided, can not be postponed and can not be ignored.

The human body will die eventually.

Many people tend to get into religion to find a meaning to their life and a purpose, while others find the dame purpose without religion.

But I got the feeling that is all about coping with death that makes religion so popular.

This is just my personal opinion.

reply to post by marg6043


Four paradigms on that:

1. "After death there is heaven or hell"

2. "After death there is nothing"

3. "After death there are endless and infinite worlds and possibilities"

4. "I dont know what happens after death"


3 and 4 appeal to me personally.