Lunar pic, review

Originally posted by internos
The only oddity of these boulders (they are two) is that especially the object
on the right (bottom here) rolled up and out of the crater before rolling downhill, and this is considered not so easy to explain by someone.

There's also this Lunar Orbiter 3 image which apparently shows another rolling boulder...

[edit on 15/12/2007 by internos]

Boulders rolling up and out of craters can be explained by the moon's quake or moonquake.

That's the surprising conclusion of Clive R. Neal, associate professor of civil engineering and geological sciences at the University of Notre Dame after he and a team of 15 other planetary scientists reexamined Apollo data from the 1970s. "The moon is seismically active," he told a gathering of scientists at NASA's Lunar Exploration Analysis Group (LEAG) meeting in League City, Texas, last October.

science.nasa.gov...

Combine moonquakes and mini gravity situations, you have strange movements going on the moon.

It looks weird, cant tell if its natural or not.

Looking forward to hear more about it though

[edit on 15-12-2007 by ntenzpunishment]

Originally posted by amitheone
Boulders rolling up and out of craters can be explained by the moon's quake or moonquake.

That's the surprising conclusion of Clive R. Neal, associate professor of civil engineering and geological sciences at the University of Notre Dame after he and a team of 15 other planetary scientists reexamined Apollo data from the 1970s. "The moon is seismically active," he told a gathering of scientists at NASA's Lunar Exploration Analysis Group (LEAG) meeting in League City, Texas, last October.

science.nasa.gov...

Combine moonquakes and mini gravity situations, you have strange movements going on the moon.

That's another possible interesting explanation, imho: the "mystery" is basically related to the "force" which generated the movement: the path of tracks left by the boulders looks to be very regular, but the definition of the image is too low in order to allow us to get satisfactory details. I believe that this is one of those topics which will be conclusively clarified in the next three - four years with the new images coming from Chang'e, Kaguya and (especially) Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter .

I will not certificate that it is in fact boulding rocks, but, in any case remeber that we have similar cases of misterious "walking rocks" here in earth that produces similar trails in the dry sand.

There are 2 theorys at the moment for this, (The best logical ones):

1- They move a very small distance due to earthquakes and other sismic vibrations over time.

2- They move over time, in a very very slow speed due to magnetic phenomenas.

feel free to see some exemples:

www.neiu.edu...

geosun.sjsu.edu...

www.frontiernet.net...

[edit on 15/12/07 by Umbra Sideralis]

reply to post by Umbra Sideralis


Well now, that is REALLY weird. Walking rocks, huh?

They say it's caused by wind sheer, but I still wonder.

Of course there is no wind on the moon, but something similar might come into play. Like folks have said before -- Moonquakes, impact vibrations and so on.

Walking rocks? I highly doubt it. Perhaps it was actually CLAIMED to be on nasa's servers, when it could've never been on there?

But it could be anything.......here's a more zoomed in image.



You be the judge on this one.

Flagged and starred.

p.s. I think it's most likely some form of a transportation / vehicle that's walking.

EDIT: Here's the edited picture. You can see the steps of the object goes from top to down.



[edit on 15-12-2007 by TheoOne]

Actually there's a lot of natural explanation to that. Ever seen a sailing stone or racetrack stones?

The sailing stones, also referred to as sliding rocks or moving rocks, are a geological phenomenon found in Racetrack Playa, Death Valley. The stones are assumed to slowly move across the surface of the playa, inferred from the long tracks behind them, without human or animal intervention.

Racetrack stones only move once every two or three years and most tracks last for just three or four years. Stones with rough bottoms leave straight striated tracks while those with smooth bottoms wander.

en.wikipedia.org...

Those straited tracks are most common on the moon and mars.

Thanks for your input, amitheone -

I believe I've heard of what they are and their existence.

But "most common" on the moon and mars?

I'm not sure, where's that from? Have NASA ever stated that? Could you show me some of evidence to back this up?

Regards

reply to post by TheoOne


I only assumed based on the pictures here on the moon and mars. Rocks with smooth bottom with smooth tracks and rocks with rough bottom, straited tracks.

Another theory why the rocks seem to come out of a crater is outgassing.

The atmosphere may come from a couple of sources, one source is outgassing or the release of gases such as radon, which originate deep within the Moon's interior. Abundant gases, such as nitrogen and carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide, can be outgassed along with rare gases such as radon.

Link

[edit on 15-12-2007 by amitheone]

reply to post by Triton1128


Looks like something hopping along and heavy by the tracks,

reply to post by TheoOne


No rock, Not shinnie, Like object which has glare see rock behid to its right.

Fantastic Picture

IMO the image is real because its from NASA's Website.
I dont think its a rock because at the end of the 'trail' the object seems quite sraight and tall (shadow), and it is far to bright and shiny compared to anything else on the image.
Looks like some sort of machinery (ours or not)..............

reply to post by AlexZ_UK


I hope you know that a smal object can have a long shadow, in the same way a very large object can have no shadow at all.

I think that is just one rock that, for some reason, found a way of changing its potential energy into kinetic energy, and the shape of the trajectory also looks like a common trajectory of an object just under the influence of gravity.

It appears that nobody noticed the other very thin trail that's at the right side of the middle panel. It crosses over in the left side of the right panel. So there are two of them of very different sizes. It's more clear in the book "Extraterrestrial Archaeology" by Childress. Obviously one should take the most down to earth explanation over something more unbelievable, and rolling boulders makes more sense. And since something rolling down hill has some momentum built up in its speed, it's possible for it to roll into and out of slight depressions.

The book mentioned above has another interesting picture of a moving boulder that appears on more level ground and goes for quite some distance, taken by Apollo 17. It says the object is about 5 meters across.

As for greeneyedleo saying it looks like an antenna, that's of course ridiculous. That's taking a completely different object in a different photo and trying to apply it here without using any common sense as to what's actually in the picture. That doesn't serve any purpose than to cloud the situation.

BTW, one of my favorite pictures from the book is an Apollo 11 picture of a glowing cigar-shaped object above the surface of the moon that's leaving a smoky-looking vapor trail. Photo no. 11-37-5438. That's the kind of photo people should be talking about, not the ones like in this thread which can easily be explained away.

reply to post by Elhardt


Are you talking about the same thing as internos in this post?

Those smooth tracks on the moon and mars indicates a soggy surface. You can't have those tracks if the surface is dry. The stormy winds would just erase those tracks easily.

The question here is where did the water come from?

reply to post by amitheone


The tracks may only look smooth at this distance, like some people look beautiful at 20 metres but look quite different up close.

And even if they are smooth, the shape of the tracks is also the result of the shape of the object that made the tracks, a large ball can make a smooth track on dry dust while a small, heavy cylinder would make a marked track in the same dust.

And I do not see any evidences of soggy ground anywhere. Also, there is not enough atmosphere on the Moon to have wind (as far as I know), so those tracks on the Moon should look like they looked when they were just made.

As for the Mars tracks, even being on an area that has all the marks of rain (that is why the title of the page where that photo can be found is "Alluvial Fans in Mojave Crater: Did It Rain on Mars?"), I don't see anything on the tracks that could make me think of soggy ground.

Originally posted by ArMaP
And even if they are smooth, the shape of the tracks is also the result of the shape of the object that made the tracks, a large ball can make a smooth track on dry dust while a small, heavy cylinder would make a marked track in the same dust.

Yes, precisely as what I've mentioned on my previous posts. Studying the Racetrack Playa on the Death Valley, these tracks are made by rocks which were either slowly pushed by moving thin ice-sheets or strong gusty winds on wet mud or soggy ground. Of course you can make a track by picking up a stone and make an imprint on the dry sand, but we are talking about the wind and no human intervention.

The tracks could not be done on dry ground because the strong gusty winds would erase the tracks clean. Here is an experiment, you can use a vacuum cleaner with the hose connected at the exhaust (air outlet). Get a heavy rock and try to move it on dry sand with the blower. You can't make any tracks at all because the strong wind would erase the track clean.

Wet the sand thoroughly, but not too saturated, but sticky and move the rock with the blower. Here you can make tracks easily. Make sure that the rock has sunk in first on the mud. If the shape of the rock is elongated, its shape would lift up the tip and it will stand first and then drop, and then the other tip will lift up, stand and drop, rolling it slowly. This will make a distinct imprint pattern on the wet sand.

To make a rock crawl out of a crater, make a crater on the ground. Make sure its soggy, but not too saturated, just a little bit sticky. Put the rock inside the crater. Use the blower and try to push the rock outside of the crater. With enough pressure, the rock will slowly, but surely roll out or slide out of the crater. Again, this is not possible on a dry crater as the rock could easily slip. It has to be soggy so that the rock can make a deep imprint and clamp on it so that the rock can slide or rock and roll out of it at a slow pace.

And I do not see any evidences of soggy ground anywhere.

You can't use sight to study the heterogeneous composition of the sand on a picture, obviously. But, you can study the dynamics of how these tracks are made and they cannot be made on dry sand at all with a very strong wind. Soils are composed of layers. Sometimes the top layer is dry, with the second layer about 8-10 inches deep will be soggy. You can check this on the beach. Try to dig as deep as possible. You'll find that the deepest part is soggy. You can make a track out of this as well if the wind blew strong enough to uncover the wet soil, or the rock is heavy enough so that it will sink on the sand reaching the wet layer to make an imprint.

Also, once the tracks are already imprinted on the mud, this will dry up and harden. Now, you have an almost permanent track and impervious to strong gusty winds.

I believe this occurs very slowly and goes into a cycle. Wet mud --> strong winds to push the rock --> mud dries up and harden making the track almost permanent --> then wet cycle again --> strong winds to push the rock --> mud dries up and the whole cycle continues. I think this is how a rock could slide or roll out of a crater. Wet mud first, then the rock slides or rolls upwards the walls of the crater due to strong gusty winds, and then the mud dries up due to high winds or high temperature, cementing temporarily the position of the rock on the walls of the crater and then wet cycle again, strong winds pushing the rock upwards, dry again, until it comes out of the crater's mouth. Now assisted by gravity, wet cycle again, wind pushes the rock with ease, then dry cycle again, and so on and so forth.

Also, there is not enough atmosphere on the Moon to have wind (as far as I know), so those tracks on the Moon should look like they looked when they were just made.

This really intrigues me. If there is no wind on the moon and no liquid substance to make the sand wet for the track imprints, how did the tracks got made and how did the rocks roll out of the crater? Quakes perhaps or high pressure out gassing, maybe, but I prefer to explain it as it occurs on Earth naturally.

Perhaps this link might explain this:

Stormy wind on the moon

"Every lunar morning, when the sun first peeks over the dusty soil of the moon after two weeks of frigid lunar night, a strange storm stirs the surface."

Link

Lunar Water

" The recent Clementine mission, an Airforce mission, made measurements however, which suggested that small, frozen pockets of water ice may be embedded in shadowed regions of the lunar crust. Although the pockets are thought to be small, the overall amount of water might be quite significant, perhaps an amount the size of Lake Erie."

Link

Water on the moon?

Link
---

Now, you have lunar wind and lunar water, the basic ingredient to make a track.

Okidoki.

Edit: added info


[edit on 23-12-2007 by amitheone]

Originally posted by ArMaP
As for the Mars tracks, even being on an area that has all the marks of rain (that is why the title of the page where that photo can be found is "Alluvial Fans in Mojave Crater: Did It Rain on Mars?"), I don't see anything on the tracks that could make me think of soggy ground.

There is no evidence that it rained on Mars. Rain is not needed at all to make the ground soggy. Underground water is very sufficient enough to do that or melted ice.

that has to be fake. if the picture is true, that object would have to be about 50ft tall. or even taller, look at the shadow. it's a very large object, looks to be an obelisk of sometype with tires..I don't know what to make of it, but it looks photoshoped, there is no way an object that tall could "roll" on the moon.