Dealing with 9/11 Madness (argumentum ad hominem veritas)

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by Pimander

 

A temporary closing could give people a chance to let their tempers cool and maybe give people a chance to look at the evidence in a different way without the influence that hundreds of people researching for ten years brings.

You could be right. However, look at the reality.

If I wanted people to stop promoting 9/11 conspiracies on ATS what could I do? Let me think.... I know, ten of us can go on ATS and pretend to be five on each side of the debate and throw a few insults, ad-hominem attacks and blanket insults and the forum will be removed. That will stop them denying ignorance.

Come on. You know I'm not wrong.

John Lear

At the risk of being a bit too off-topic, if anyone is curious about what John Lear had to say when he was an active member (he made 4,802 posts over a period of four years), here are some handy links:

Member Profile: John Lear

Member Posts: John Lear

Nothing like hearing it straight from the man himself.

Come come ATS you're easily big enough to handle this with your usual applomb.

People get heated about this and that and surely its a good thing to let them get their fury off their chests.

Anyone coming onto this board knows their ideas or views can be challenged, its how we learn to think outside the box when someone whose posts one admires prods one onto another direction.

We have had so much PC rammed down our throats and its backfiring beautifully enough to bite many of its perpetrators right on the bum and I hope they hurt.

You can't miss the fact that all the institutions are getting a hiding from the public these days and 9/11 is a major issue. If we doubters roll over sweetly and ooh! so sorry we thought otherwise, we are letting down not only those who died, but those who are suffering today, due to the poisonous atmosphere they had to live through. The amount of fire-fighters and other helpers as well as the public need our support to rally the government to do more to help these people and take better care of us.

I will never forget watching the tower with the long scarf being waved to show there were people there. Then suddenly it imploded down and the scarf was gone. My heart went out to its owner.

I don't care who says what, I remember Fred Dibner who use to blow up buildings and chimneys in built up areas saying, 'its only by a carefully planned, controlled explosion that you can stop the building from spilling everywhere as its demolished, however strong its built.

I don't mean to upset (grumpy) at ATS but I do think this is one topic we should be left to shout and bellow about because it is one of the most important things that has happened in our life's time.

Originally posted by backinblack




would like nothing more than to see this forum gone..

Sadly you are playing right into their hands..

he's right though. there obviously are people out there who want this forum closed, and you obviously are telling us all exactly what it would take to have that happen,

playing right into their hands,

its odd really, when someone doesnt want something specific to occur, the last thing they would do is to tell everyone in the world exactly how to do it,

yet here we have you telling the whole world that you dont want the forum closed, and exactly what needs to happened for it to be closed.

hmmmmm......

Thanks for the warnings, but instead of threatening closure, why not just enforce the bans?

If you need someone with a ban-hammer to play 9/11-whack-a-troll sign me up!

Better than seeing one of the most productive parts of the forum closed. (Productive minus trolls of course)

reply to post by SkepticOverlord



I wondered at the time of the attacks why the terrorists hadn’t attempted simpler, more effective techniques to commit murder, panic and paranoia such as poisoning water supplies.

Why go to all the risk and trouble of learning to fly, organising a large team of fellow suicide pilots just to kill a few civilians when you could have targeted a million of them with a fraction of the risk.

Many refuse to give Muslims the credit they deserve. It’s all to easy for some Western citizens to point their finger at “the axis of evil”, but for them to even consider a threat could come from an inside force is too much for them too cope with.
Meanwhile they quite happily accept that Gadaffi and Saddam Hussein murdered thousands of their own citizens without question.

I live in a large city with a 45% Muslim population and I often hear how many non-radical Islamics believe that “the Jews” had orchestrated 9/11 to discredit Islam, to start oil wars and to keep a grip on Israel.
This has always been the case since the media made themselves part of the rumour mill e.g. the early warnings given to hundreds of Jewish Twin-Tower workers

If there is one thing that I’ve learned about the whole event; it’s that we have all been divided up in an age when we just need to work closer.

reply to post by lostjohnny


Shock and awe with a clear villain is the axiom of terrorism. Poisoning a water supply or blowing up a small square isn't what they are going for. If you want to send a message, you don't just randomly kill a few people here and there. You create a symbol. Their symbol was to exploit the weakness in the American system, proving that the United States is not a stronghold like it claims to be.

The big thing conspiracy theorists do is they hold onto the dream that the United States is a super-powerful force that can't be reckoned with. Therefore, the attacks had to have been done by the government. You can actually see holes in the psychology of people when they can only refer to the terrorists as "box-cutter wielding cavemen." It completely ignores that these were educated men who took classes in flight schools.

In my opinion, a lot of what causes the conspiracy theories is denial. No one wants to admit that the US is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors covering up what really makes it up: people. There is no magical shield that protects us from harm. It really is just a white lie to help you sleep at night, knowing that there won't be a suitcase nuke in a nearby city.

But yeah, I'm going off on a whole other tangent now. I'll go ahead and stop this line of thought.

reply to post by pryingopen3rdeye


Well, since I am a member of the "side" that supposedly wants the 9/11 forum gone, I thought I would address that.

I do not want the 9/11 Forum to disappear until members of the Truth movement, actually discover the truth and realize they have wasted years of their lives chasing down lies about 9/11 being an "inside job"

reply to post by Varemia
You are exactly the type of person that causes me to be scolded. If, as you say 'truthers' are in denial where does that put you? After all of the obvious discrepancies have been pointed out to you ad nauseum, I'm supposed to believe that you are a genuine poster, and I'm the idiot who just wants to make trouble. How can you expect me to believe that you support the OS, when this topic has raised dozens of legitimate questions that are ignored by the media? If you are satisfied with the explanations given for the events of that day, what are you doing here? That's a legitimate question, and one that none of the 'debunkers' have been able to answer, I'm just one guy who doesn't believe that 19 arabs with boxcutters caused all the destruction and subsequent wars, all by themselves. So until I see someone answer the simple questions we as 'truthers' are asking, I will not sit down and shut up. If some of my posts are deemed insulting by one of, or all of the 'mods', know this: I'm insulted by ANYONE who believes that the people resonsible for 9/11 have been identified.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

It's not inherently evil to believe the "official story," and it's immature and impolite to denigrate people who do.

It's still a FACT that they are the ones that would like to see the forum gone..
The entire purpose of the 9/11 forum is to question the OS as far as I can tell..
Insinuating that my views are immature or impolite are a little below you SO..

I would say I am neither..

No its to discuss what happened !!!! or what people think happened !!!!

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by patternfinder
there still is the slippery slope of non progress when the same OSers come in and say the same exact thing every single time...

Perhaps if you stopped the derogatory implications by calling people "OSers" we'd see some type of trend toward civility.

edit on 5-9-2011 by SkepticOverlord because: (no reason given)

so the term "OSer" is derogatory, but the term "truthers" is not?

Perhaps they should be called "Veracious".

I am not a member of the truth movement, but I sure consider myself veracious. whether that leads me to the answer being 19 arab hijackers, or some nefarious, powerful group, I am yet to conclude, as the information will always be suppressed.

well if the 911 forums do get shut down...that would be a sad day...as it would mean just one more aveune towards truth is closed down.....Shame....

there are so many unanswered questions.....and as people are taught through out life...the only question that is a silly question is the one that is not asked.

answers cannot come easy as the roads to answers get closed down...just as time moves us further from the truth.

ATS has provided a good forum for this subject and i respect what ATS tries to do to protect their members from abuse.....But also for the most part the members are adults and can handle some of the abuse....but as far as the T&C goes...come on follow them....not that hard.....yes sometimes trying to get a point across is like beating a hammer against steel but even then it does create a spark of light than can shine .

now as for derogatory....calling someone a truthers can be just as derogatory as calling someone an OSer's...it is just how it is stated that matters....I don't like being can a truther...because i don't know really what the truth is...but i do not believe many elements of the OS.....so i have been labeled....as it seems labeling makes things all ok.

but a trend i do see is professionals deny the OS and they get raked over the coals....and called all sorts of things...which is a shame....as it is professional opinion.

so what makes one professionals opinion more valuble than anothers....i guess it just depends upon what side of the fence one chooses to stand on.

I have questioned many things through out my life....and i will go on continuing the questioning....so i question how this ban would be implemented....if one speaks of it...does one get banned.

I guess it can go the way of the M word......it does not exist in the realm of ATS...cannot be discussed....and cannot be mentioned.

My brother has MS and it would be valuble to me to discuss such a topic...but forbidden....and i live with it.....but 911....one of the biggest possible conspiracies in the world...next to JFK and Martin luther king...and even Abraham Lincoln....how would one not want to dicuss it.

i have changed how i conduct myself in 911 threads cause i got a warning....but i find i can get a point over by realising i am not here to argue with people who believe in the OS....but rather to educate people on factors that don't add up with the OS.

I just don't allow myself to be goated into an argument....and i can say this with all regard....i can name SIX people who believe in the OS whom frequent 911 threads and try to incite anger by repeatedly ignoring what gets stated...and not adding to the threads with information to the contrary....

i find that some of the people whom believe in the OS only cite two to three sources..NIST,FEMA and Bazant Zhou.....i find this odd as they are the same papers in contention....

so some friendly advice to people...present your thoughts....acknoledge the person presenting...then counter...as it will show the observer what is out there....and the more that someone asks for proof...just try to show it...as it is for the benefit of the person on the sideline.

I view those who viciously attack 9/11 investigators as the equivalence of mean drunks. They are drunk on the mixture fed down through the taste makers and social engineers. Have you ever tried to reason with a really mean drunk? Its really no use. That being said I believe 9/11 was and continues to be a great opportunity to uncover and neutralize some of the great mechanisms of totalitarian control since it was necessary that these mechanisms be exposed and continue to be exposed to preserve the lies. This is really what we're here for. This I believe is why we chose to be on the earth at this time. To be in a position to dismantle these mechanisms that are preserved via the top levels of the secret societies and strengthened by satanic rituals of power. When you observe these mechanisms you realize they are very powerful as the lies they foment are powerful and they hold great magic. However, they are no match for the truth.This is why satan ( or whatever you call those 4th dimensional beings ) NEVER DARE to expose these mechanisms to the true light because they would be destroyed immediately. They kick up a lot of dust and cover their ears and waah waah waah like banshees but they WILL NOT DEBATE the truth because even the darkness respects the superior power of the true light and the true light is in all of us who acknowledge and love it.

reply to post by Varemia

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. I respectfully disagree on all counts because I have researched this topic from since before it happened. It has nothing to do with the U.S. being an infallible superpower and its got nothing to do with cavemen wielding boxcutters. What it has to do with are the mechanisms that the few use in an eerily ritualistic by the book manner to manipulate the many into a man made hell on earth existence and its been repeated for millennia as long as "man has dominated man to his injury" as stated in the Bible.
Here are the simple facts regarding the 9/11 lie.
Melting or damaged structural steel NEVER causes a building to collapse symetrically into its own footprint EVER because we have something called the laws of physics which says that objects in motion will ALWAYS follow the path of least resistance - NEVER the path of MOST RESISTANCE!
Some of the maneuvers the 9/11 hijackers were said to make that day could not be made by top gun pilots with years of experience, much less these hapless wannabes who couldn't fly a puddle jumper.
The biggest smoking gun is the government's refusal to properly investigate, and the concerted effort of government and media to kill, silence, obfuscate, destroy evidence, deny evidence and most importantly refuse to debate openly and objectively head on on live television all those who shed light contrary to the official fable.
They act suspiciously plain and simple. Their actions betray them. They have used EVERY DECEITFUL TRICK IN THE BOOK! They have used 9.11 as a pretext to take away rights and fund a militant police state.
Governments in the past have done these SAME EXACT THINGS throughout history while the majority of their people have reacted the EXACT SAME way as you have to THEIR OWN PERIL.
Seriously my friend, you need to wake up because it almost too late. In fact, it may be too late already.
In conclusion, I worship no government but I do highly respect the principles this nation was originally founded on. Principles that have long since been abandoned and because of this have created the environment ripe for corrupt forces to do the exact thing that corrupt forces have done for ever and will do forever. Why? Because these people are insane plain and simple. Its got nothing to do with the U.S. please please understand this. Its simply men and women who open themselves up to dark forces in order to gain and advantage for themselves and lose their minds and humanity in the process. This is all it is and that's enough.

reply to post by jamiebenzy
Thanks, Jamie. They have used 9/11 to take away our rights, and yet those that back the OS never, ever bring that up. Why are they satisfied with the outcome? This fact is just one more reason why they are so unbelievable. A pox on all of you who continue to prop up this crime.

Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by jamiebenzy

 

Thanks, Jamie. They have used 9/11 to take away our rights, and yet those that back the OS never, ever bring that up. Why are they satisfied with the outcome? This fact is just one more reason why they are so unbelievable. A pox on all of you who continue to prop up this crime.

You're not serious, are you?

Every single person who supports the OS here agrees that the US has taken away our rights as a result. Every person agrees that people have used 9/11 for profit. Every person agrees that it shouldn't have happened.

It's unbelievable that such myths still permeate here about people who don't agree with you. It's like watching brainwashed drones talk about how evil their enemies are, when they don't even know who their enemies are.

reply to post by Varemia
I'm entirely comfortable with my understanding of friends and enemies, and because you continue to post here defending the OS, you are my enemy. How does it feel each day posting things that in reality, are either untrue, or unproven? It's got to be unhealthy for you.

Lest We Forget...

For anyone who may have lost sight of what the original purpose of this thread is, and apparently some have, it's to remind members that ad hominem attacks are inappropriate for the 9/11 Conspiracies forum, just as they are in any other ATS forum.

Because of the emotionally-charged nature of the subject, it is understandable that some people might fly off the handle now and then, and when that happens, we try to be understanding.

However, sometimes we see habitual, even systematic patterns of abusive behavior. In those cases where repeated warnings, post removals and other remedies fail, we may choose to terminate accounts.

Should you encounter problem behavior, please be sure to ALERT us to it. While not all alerts are necessarily actionable, they do help us identify problematic situations, and that is tremendously helpful.

Over ten years after 9/11/2001, many unanswered questions remain about that fateful day. Nearly four years after this thread was started, courtesy is still occasionally a problem, but I do think the situation has improved since SkepticOverlord drew attention to the issue.

While we often find ourselves in the position of telling members what not to do and taking direct action as a consequence of our responsibility to enforce the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use, that doesn't mean we don't recognize and appreciate the efforts of our fellow ATSers who exemplify the core ideals of our community.

Thank you to everyone who has put so much effort into promoting the civil, scholarly discussion of 9/11.

This forum is for you.

reply to post by InterdimensionalWarrior


Its a race, a race that is heating up and coming into the final stretch, as we wake up, the cook up grand schemes to have the sheeple line up like the Pavlovian dogs they have been trained to be. It will be a wild finish me thinks....lets hope the good guys win.