The Masonic Influence:

reply to post by corsig


Corsig, what's with that all seeing eye? That is one of the symbols that bugs the heck out of me for some reason, like it symbolizes some sort of control or something? Again, not an assumption, just asking.

reply to post by Rockpuck


"By your own admission" and "Of your own accord". I may sound ignorant here but what exactly do you mean by those phrases? And I don't want the generic explanation, that's not what I'm looking for. What I mean is "By your own admission" from what?

Do you think that we as individuals should question everything, including our own religion? Please don't attack this question with a counter response. Just try to answer the questions in a direct manner.



[edit on 16-12-2007 by spirit7]

Originally posted by spirit7
Do you think that we as individuals should question everything, including our own religion?

Not directed at me, but here goes anyway: Yes. Absolutely, positively unequivocally.

How are we to learn if we don't question things? Why did God bless us with Reason and intellect if we are not to use it with regard to Him? To think that he would is silly, in my opinion.

To go through life and NOT question what makes us who we are is the height of folly.

P.S. I think those two phrases are pretty straight-forward. No cryptic meanings, so far as I am aware.

Edit to add: Rock, I have never heard the phrase "by your own admission" in Masonry either; I thought he was referring to a previous post or something. Still, both phrases seem pretty straight-forward to me, regardless of application.

[edit on 12/17/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by corsig

 

Corsig, what's with that all seeing eye? That is one of the symbols that bugs the heck out of me for some reason, like it symbolizes some sort of control or something? Again, not an assumption, just asking.

I'm trying to hypnotize you to denounce Jesus Christ as your saviour.

Did it work?

reply to post by corsig


I am not sure how it affects everyone else but everytime I see your avatar I have a sudden and urgent compulsion to mail you a hundred dollars. I might have to put you on ignore.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
reply to post by corsig

 

I am not sure how it affects everyone else but everytime I see your avatar I have a sudden and urgent compulsion to mail you a hundred dollars. I might have to put you on ignore.

Ahh just in time for the holidays. I will be a hundredaire before I know it!

Originally posted by spirit7


Do you think that we as individuals should question everything, including our own religion?

Spirit, I gotta hand it to you: that's a great question!

The answer is a loud resounding "Yes!"

If we do not question the truth of something, then we come under the mercy of those who claim to proclaim it. By questioning our own religions, we are actually utilizing freedom. We are of a certain religion because we were born into it. Had we been born in Yemen, we would be Muslims; had we opened our eyes in a village along the Ganges, we would be Hindus; and if our lives had begun in Japan, we would be studying the Dharma of Guatama Buddha.

We all have been indoctrinated into the various religions through early socialization, and very few of us of any religion have actually questioned why. And even fewer have examined the tenets and claims of our religion and asked ourselves if they were really real.

Remember: There is no religion higher than Truth!

Originally posted by spirit7

Corsig, what's with that all seeing eye? That is one of the symbols that bugs the heck out of me for some reason, like it symbolizes some sort of control or something? Again, not an assumption, just asking.

Since you believe in God, as you already have stated, why would a symbol whose meaning is God's Omnipresence bug you? It certainly symbolizes a type of control, since God is in control of everything. I'm just curious as to why you find this disturbing.

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

"By your own admission" and "Of your own accord". I may sound ignorant here but what exactly do you mean by those phrases? And I don't want the generic explanation, that's not what I'm looking for. What I mean is "By your own admission" from what?

Do you think that we as individuals should question everything, including our own religion? Please don't attack this question with a counter response. Just try to answer the questions in a direct manner.

[edit on 16-12-2007 by spirit7]

I have never heard "by your own admission" in Masonry before, however its meaning is quite clear, as is "My own Accord" .. You cannot join Masonry unless it is YOU who desires light.. not someone else persuading you or forcing you.. It is a symbolic phrase that assures everyone it is you and you alone of your own free will who is becoming a Mason and taking the Masonic Oath.

As for questioning your religion, and everything else for that matter, absolutely, I will second the statements made by the others.

This is me wondering if the OP has forgotten the thread?

Tet, I was actually looking forward to reading your replies to my (and others') posts since your last...



[edit on 12/21/07 by The Axeman]

reply to post by The Axeman


No mate, I am sorry, I have not forgotten you. I just want to answer you all in full, this took more time that I currently had, since this is my holidays, got to give the kid and wife a little love you know.

You will have my answers tomorrow; I have taken the time of to reply to you all. Also I have been thinking lately, and have some new data I would like to share with you, all on the same subject as the OP.

I want to be called "Mate" also.

I would like to apologize to all who has waited for an answer, my absence was rude, but I assure you that there where a good reason behind it.

Also, I am sorry if I missed anything in this multi reply, please feel free to point out any holes.

reply to post by Masonic Student

Reading 90 % of all the masonic threads here is quite an accomplishment, I have read many, at least the ones that I felt had something to offer.
I also remember when SO I think it was, locked down the Secret Societies forums.
Thanks for your reply.

reply to post by NWRHINO

Thank you for your contribution, I do feel however that we are getting of topic, but I would like to point out one thing. Yes it does feel like the structure of masonry has existed for a long time, and that it has influenced the scientific method, and rationality and logic.

reply to post by LightinDarkness

We know by now you have offered your counter to this thread, it is the second time you link to it, in this thread alone. I told you in your thread why I stopped participating, so you claim that no one answered is untrue.
I would not gloat that much if I was you, just a friendly advise, the debate is far from over, as you shall see soon enough in another thread.

reply to post by Saurus

The majority being masons in this case. Though I shall not say it is their priority, the have all (almost all) said so.

reply to post by Masonic Light

Greetings Masonic Light, I am honoured by your presence in this thread.
In all my time here on ATS, you have been the most honourable and honest person I have met, in my entire internet lifetime, I have learned so much from you, and I can say that you are largely the reason that I can debate in a polite and constructive way.
You might remember some of my first posts here, where I got into a major fight with Alex Kennedy and Senrak plus many more. (Was under a different username then)

While you argument has its own right, I would just say we have to disagree here, it is my subjective impression that indeed you are undermining Above Top Secret, when you attack the way you do. You are quenching any lust for debate, when you from the start claim that for example facts and theories has been debunked many times, when the fact is that nothing conclusive could concluded.

(Good example here is the masonic influence on the designs on major cities like Washington and Paris)

I also know your take on masonry, and as I have said before it is the most logical conclusion, though as you yourself has said, nothing definitive can be concluded. We just don’t have all the evidence to end these debates, and we get into a theory vs. theory.

Though stating a theory, debunked another theory is not true. Yes many outrageous claims have been debunked, but these outrageous claims are not the ones we are talking about here.

Anyways thanks for sharing and participating, always a pleasure to read your posts.

My deepest respect
Tetra

reply to post by The Axeman

We can’t prove a negative, but we have to remember that this forum isn’t exclusively for proof, but theories are more than welcome.
But your points are well taken, though I would like if we could refrain from using words as truth, since truth will always be subjective. Even in science we know that any evidence we present is biased with our own opinions, the instant you try to prove something you have already stopped being objective.

Well this doesn’t make sense, what I was trying to say is that no one can be objective, we will always be subjective.

And we can all snap;
I know I have, more in my past though.

Nepotism, is common everywhere we cannot help it, we as human are nepotistic, ever been recommended to a job? Ever got a house or apartment or even room because you knew the seller? That we cannot help, but we can however in my opinion stay clear of structures that encourage nepotism, and I think that any lodge or fraternity encourages nepotism.

I will stay clear of the debate about sun worship, I have brought it up in another thread, I just answered where the problem in my opinion was.

But yes, the most important argument, and where you are absolutely right, is that there are a difference in similarity of structure and content. This is a pit I need to stay clear of, well it just seems to be too many coincidences to me. But yes I have no proof, it is only a hunch.

Sun worship does not have to be monotheistic. Of course people worship the sun; it is the reason for all life in this universe. It is not about hydrogen and helium, but a metaphor of course.

So at least we agree here, it is a symbol for something greater.

It is also wrong of me to let my frustration hit all of you, so I will rephrase: recently I tire of the noise produced by SOME masons. This just proves that prejudice and generalizations are hard to leave behind.

And of course it must be at least as tiresome if not more to refute and debunk all the crap I have seen posted here.

Regarding subjective vs. objective, I meant what I wrote. I make many mistakes when I translate to English, but I am sure no one is there

And if possible, to have a debate about freemasonry without the interference of the freemasons as the ultimate arbiters, but subjective individuals like the rest of us.

I mean that we are all no matter affiliation subjective, as already stated above. And it would be nice if we could have a share of theory and thoughts, without a mason charging in stating to have the ultimate truth about masonry because he goes to a lodge and that lodge claims that masonry is no older than 300 years etc. As Masonic Light said; if I remember correct, the origins of masonry are not 100 %.

And again, no one can be the objective arbiters, but you asked because of a misunderstanding, so I will forgive you. I tried once, though I now know that it is impossible.

reply to post by Tetragrammaton


And I agree, this thread is already hard to come by, we will leave the social and relegiois influence out.


@ALL
I am really sorry this might seem incomprehensible; I kind of forced myself through these replies because of guilt, but lost overview some where in the reply to Axeman.

This is a second rate reply, something I am not proud of.

I will get to the rest soon enough. Again I apologize for the delay.

EDIT: forgot something when i pasted!


[edit on 27-12-2007 by Tetragrammaton]

You did not answer my thread because you cannot. Unlike this thread, I actually provided proof for my claims. Your failure to answer speaks volumes.

The double standard continues to amaze me. You expect the masons on this board to do nothing and watch as every manner of quite literally lies is used to mount some global conspiracy with the fraternity as the cornerstone. I again invite you to give us one characteristic about yourself: ethnic origin, religion, etc.: I will then create an entire thread using parallel arguments to the ones used about masonry, but using that characteristic. If you reply to it, I will accuse you of being part of a conspiracy trying to hide the truth about that characteristic. Do you see why this is crazy yet?

What you want is basically to restrict freedom of speech: allowing you and others to begin starting threads on masonry without masons being allowed to contribute. I will not do this. Ever. I am all for everyone who wants to create a conspiracy about any secret society posting on this board. And I am all for anyone who wishes to disagree with those people also posting.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

Wasn't constructive! deleted!

[edit on 27-12-2007 by Tetragrammaton]

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton

Greetings Masonic Light, I am honoured by your presence in this thread.
In all my time here on ATS, you have been the most honourable and honest person I have met, in my entire internet lifetime, I have learned so much from you, and I can say that you are largely the reason that I can debate in a polite and constructive way.

Thank you very much for your kind words, my friend. I only wish I could live up to them, even in part.

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
We can’t prove a negative, but we have to remember that this forum isn’t exclusively for proof, but theories are more than welcome.

Absolutely! But you must understand the absurdity in calling something a "theory" -- in the real sense of the word -- that has no academic merit, no research or sources to back up the reasoning behind the ideas! And that's only in the rare case where reason is a factor at all!

Now you, on the other hand, at least provide some background on why you hold the views that you hold, and actually offer something up for debate; a lot who come here do not, and sometimes they get hammered for it... I can't really feel bad for them because they make no effort. You've seen it -- they just come and paste the same links and articles over and over again, some without even so much as a cogent explanation of why they are posting it.

Some simply come here to argue safely with someone that can't see them or do anything to them when they make unbelievably offensive accusations based on, in most cases, ignorance, fear, and an impossibly paranoid world-view.

...what I was trying to say is that no one can be objective, we will always be subjective.

It really depends: are we talking truth or Truth? The former can be subjective. The latter, by its very nature, cannot. The Earth revolves around the Sun, the Moon around the Earth. This is not subjective. It is a fact. It is Truth. Drastic analogy, I know, but it makes the point. The "T" is everything and without determining which we are talking about we will have miscommunication.

That said, there is MUCH in Masonry that is subjective. But there are those things that are facts or truths about the fraternity.

Grand Lodges are autonomous. Fact. Certain procedures and practices must be maintained in order for a lodge to have a Charter. Fact. Official modern Freemasonry was born in 1717. Fact.

I'll tell you what, I will be more careful about where I use the idea of absolute truth, becuase you're right, there are some things that are totally subjective. I will continue to point out facts and truths when appropriate, though I will try to distinguish my own truths (read: perceptions) from actual Truths.

Fair enough?

And we can all snap;
I know I have, more in my past though.

Yeah, we've both come a long way since we last met here.

Nepotism, is common everywhere we cannot help it, we as human are nepotistic, ever been recommended to a job? Ever got a house or apartment or even room because you knew the seller? That we cannot help, but we can however in my opinion stay clear of structures that encourage nepotism, and I think that any lodge or fraternity encourages nepotism.

Sure I have, but not from Brothers in the Craft. I will agree with you that Masonry provides an environment in which nepotism could become a factor, but in my personal experience, talking with other Masons and reading others' thoughts on the subject, it's not. It could be in some places, and I'm sure it happens. It is the exception, though, not the rule.

Do you feel that encouraging nepotism is the path to oligarchy? I'm not sure what damage Masons hiring/trading with other Masons because they are Masons could do. Help me understand; why is the nepotism angle important to you?

But yes, the most important argument, and where you are absolutely right, is that there are a difference in similarity of structure and content. This is a pit I need to stay clear of, well it just seems to be too many coincidences to me. But yes I have no proof, it is only a hunch.

That's OK, and we can discuss it, but I have an unfair advantage because I have actually seen the content of the Craft Degrees, so you will have to bear with me and just trust that what I'm telling you is the truth with regard to content.

Sun worship does not have to be monotheistic. Of course people worship the sun; it is the reason for all life in this universe. It is not about hydrogen and helium, but a metaphor of course.

So at least we agree here, it is a symbol for something greater.

Aye. It's a symbol no matter how you look at it. The ancients might have actually thought it was an Entity in and of itself, but of course we know better now. That does not make the symbolism or philosophies of the Ancients any less valid for them, or beautiful to study. They simply saw it as a manifestation of something greater, too.

Masonically, there are, of course, the descriptions given in the ritual, and those are true and valid in that context; but as I reflect on various Masonic symbols, sometimes I find they mean something to me personally that may or may not be different than the explanation given in the lectures. To me, the Sun, Moon and Stars are emblematic of the divine Providence of God. How could the universe be without him? This is sort of a deist view; like, "the cosmos is proof of God." It's unfathomable how it could all just "happen" together by coincidence and work the way it does without the intervention of God.

"Faith begins where Reason and Logic fall exhausted."

Of course that's my own interpretation; I just remark on it to illustrate how the symbols can be personally interpreted.

It is also wrong of me to let my frustration hit all of you, so I will rephrase: recently I tire of the noise produced by SOME masons. This just proves that prejudice and generalizations are hard to leave behind.

Indeed. I commend you for the effort to improve yourself.

And of course it must be at least as tiresome if not more to refute and debunk all the crap I have seen posted here.

This is one reason why I pick and choose the threads I participate in, much more so than in the past...

And it would be nice if we could have a share of theory and thoughts, without a mason charging in stating to have the ultimate truth about masonry because he goes to a lodge and that lodge claims that masonry is no older than 300 years etc. As Masonic Light said; if I remember correct, the origins of masonry are not 100 %.

No, they are not 100% certain, or even close to that. But it is a fact that the first official Grand Lodge was founded in 1717, which makes modern Masonry about 290 years old. This is not to say there weren't lodges for 3, 4, even 500 years prior to that time (see the Regius Manuscript), but the records are spotty at best, utterly lost to time at worst.

Some are more zealous than others... on both "sides." I try not to hold it against them, they are only doing what they feel is right. I just wish some of them would think it through before posting.

I am enjoying having a civil conversation for a change.




[edit on 12/28/07 by The Axeman]

God does not control us, he already gave us freewill. As our own children do, we also rebel. God will not reveal himself completetly because he wants us to have faith in him. Yes, we were born into a religion but God is real and so is Jesus Christ. A Christian cannot be saved unless he or she truly believes that they are saved through Jesus Christ and only through Jesus Christ.

I have a feeling that most Freemasons that call themselves "Christians" are being detured from this and it saddens me. Jesus Christ came here on a mission folks and if you cannot understand that then I don't know what to tell you.

reply to post by spirit7


On behalf of all evangelical Christians everywhere - and I am one of them - I most sincerely and humbly offer my apologies to the board. I assure you, most evangelicals spend their time focusing on other things than accusing Christians of not being Christians.