Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
... I was however once many years ago here on Above Top Secret a Anti-Masonic tinfoil madman, storming in here with my masonrywatch.com propaganda
spewing ignorance all over the place. The masons here at that time, did not do a particular good job in convincing me that there weren’t anything
sinister going on, they did however debunk a lot of the disinformation I had scooped up over my short time researching these topics, and for that I
owe them my thanks.
Heheh. We get those from time to time, and I like the term: "Anti-Masonic tinfoil madman" -- has a nice ring to it.
My view is this: I don't need
to harp on the fact that nothing sinister is going on, for 2 reasons.
First, you can't prove a negative. I can't prove
that nothing sinister is happening any more than our detractors can prove
something is. Why waste my time? I have found that those who demand you prove a negative are not good debaters, and typically their threads/posts fade
and go largely unnoticed and unreplied to (the odd ad hominem
notwithstanding, of course
). It's not worth my time to debate or reply to
someone who is set in their preconceived notions and rejects reason and intellectual discussion and/or investigation.
Second, by focusing on what can
be shown to be true, and showing the reasoning behind it, I have found that people are much more receptive and
typically will concede to having been wrong. I have seen it happen enough times for me to believe that my time on ATS is not wasted time; something
good has come from it, and I like that. People have read my words and done their own homework because of it, only to come back and thank me later for
my help. I find this to be the more constructive (and satisfying) route, and while I used to be hot-headed and perhaps a bit arrogant at times (it's
), the last couple of years have been good to me and I seem to have mellowed
That said, catch me on the right day with an off comment and I might just tear loose on ya. It's happened recently, and while it will happen from
time to time, I'm working on it, because it's still not kosher
But when I continued my criticism of the nepotistic organisation of the fraternity as a whole, and produced postulates about ancient sun
worship dating back to the time before Sumeria etc. and provided data regarding this it was refuted by the 3 mentioned tactics, not viable counter
Nepotism in Masonry is not as common a practice as one might think, at least in my experience. The extent of it might be that if the employer was a
Mason, and two EQUALLY QUALIFIED applicants were applying for a position and one of them happens to be a Mason, he will probably be hired over the
other. Why? Because there is a bond between Masons, and typically we are sure we can trust someone who is a Mason, perhaps more so than someone who is
not. It's not always true, we are just men, and I'm sure there are Masons out there who are less-than-trustworthy (I have yet to meet one), but
still. Blatant nepotism is not an issue, at least in my experience.
I might ask around the lodge if anyone is a mechanic, or handyman, etc. before I go to the yellow pages, though, I will say that. Why wouldn't I want
to give a friend the business, and be at ease knowing he won't rip me off?
As far as Sumerian Sun-worship, etc.? There's nothing like that, at least in the Blue degrees (there is some mention of it in the Scottish Rite, if
I'm not terribly mistaken, but it is from a historical standpoint -- not a practical one). There is mention of the Sun and Moon, etc. but it's not
in a worshipping sense; they are representative of Light and leadership -- Light is obvious, leadership because the sun "presides" over the day, and
the moon the night.
I won't dare to sit here and claim that there are not ways you could relate the symbols, etc. to what you describe. A lot of people have that opinion
because Pike called Freemasonry "The successor to the Ancient Mysteries," and a lot of those were sun-worship cults. The thing is though, Masonry is
only like them in structure
; we have certain rituals for the various degrees of initiation, we ask that the candidate come of his own free
will, the candidate is kept in the dark (literally) for a time to emphasize that he is among trusted friends, etc. We're certainly not sacrificing
virgins to Apollo, or anything like that.
There is a difference in similarity of structure
and similarity of content
But here's the thing about Sun-worship: I don't think it was about worshipping a big ball of gas; it was their personification of the Deity. The Sun
was simply a symbol for God. The sun brings warmth and makes the plants grow, etc. It is a "giver of life," so it doesn't seem like much of a
stretch to imagine these folks who don't understand physics and science to imagine that the sun is in some way representative of God Himself.
To me, it seems more likely that the sun was merely a symbol, and that the Adepts of the time knew that, but to the unwashed masses they were just
"worshipping the sun."
The preceding was my own opinion, no sources other than my own various readings and reasoning.
Anyways, to sum this up, yes I indeed have an agenda, but as stated it is not Anti-Masonic. But recently I tire of all the noise produced here
by the masons, hence the reason for creating this topic.
We are equally -- no -- probably even MORE tired of the "noise" produced by ignorant fanatics in this forum. They cling to their bibles (that most
do not understand) and thump it and tell us how we're devil-lovers when they don't know the first thing about Masonry past what ephesians5-11.org
THAT is tiresome, let me tell you.
I want to debate if by chance there are a slim possibility that we can find co-existence on these boards and that we can produce a constructive
debate and information sharing in the secret societies forum, concerning every secret society not just freemasonry.
I doubt you will find a single complaint about that from "our camp." If people would check their tin-foil at the door, this would be a much happier
place -- but this site is for tin-foilers, so there's no hope of that ever happening.
And if possible, to have a debate about freemasonry without the interference of the freemasons as the ultimate arbiters, but subjective
individuals like the rest of us.
You must understand that as a member of the group in question it is very hard to be (I think you were looking for: ) objective. A "subjective
opinion" is what we give here every day -- as members, of course we have bias, and not only that, but real-life experience upon which to draw to make
Now a question for you: Who should be the objective arbiters?
I have tried on numerous occasions to set up a Masonic debate... never happened. You know why? Because no one would take the anti-Mason side! All they
can do is post regurgitated crap from anti-Masonic websites (which all repeat the same weak-ass accusations and "proofs") and cry that the Masons
are bullying them! I mean give me a break!
Trust me; the debate idea has been thrown around. I was once on the ATS Steering Committee (DISC) and it came up there, too. The final decision was it
was too wide a topic and no one would take the opposing side anyway.
I'd be game for a debate, though.
So I say, that you (read: masons) are deliberately undermining the very fabric of ATS, by ridiculing any critical thinking, of course you would
not admit to the fact that there could indeed be some situations where your ancient and accepted order does not come to par.
The Freemasons undermining ATS idea has already been addressed, so I'll leave it at that; and look around -- we'll be the first to admit that the
Fraternity is not perfect; it has its weaknesses, some of them we can fix, some are "set in stone," so to speak. Either way, the fraternity is what
it is. We accept it for that, and what's more, we don't ask if outsiders accept it, and at the end of the day we don't really care if they do or
Freemasonry has survived this long; I don't think Jack Chick or Bill Shnoebelen is going to bring us down.
In addition since this thread is up I would like to discuss if possible the social, religious, economic and political influence of fraternities
as a whole…
Lord have mercy, let's keep it manageable! You're asking to open a whole other can of worms there... perhaps another thread?
OK I think I got to all of it; let me know if I missed anything and I'll be looking forward to your response(s).
[edit on 12/12/07 by The Axeman]