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The Masonic Influence:

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posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 11:52 PM
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I don't see myself as "anti-mason". I'm more against the corruption of anything than against masonry itself. Your craft has been corrupted, and the amazing spiritual powers you seek have been used for blinding innocent people. You guys could at least admit that you are aware of the fact that many people in power have been masons. Let me repeat: I am not against freemasonry, or lodge members, or any masons who I obviously have much in common with being on the same website reading the same content, making our own conclusions. Seeking enlightenment is in no way evil, and I apologize if what I say and the research I support makes it seem like I'm that ignorant. I am on my own spiritual journey, and so far everything I've learned has led me to distrust masons and the dark power of masonic rituals.




posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by rationalgaze
 




I don't see myself as "anti-mason". I'm more against the corruption of anything than against masonry itself.


We should get along then, I despise corruption!



Your craft has been corrupted, and the amazing spiritual powers you seek >have been used for blinding innocent people.


OK, honest question mate. How do you know we have been corrupted? And by whom, and for what reason have we been corrupted? And perhaps most importantly, describe the corruption.



You guys could at least admit that you are aware of the fact that many people in power have been masons.


Actually we are quite proud of the famous people who have been Masons. No reason not to be. 14 US Presidents, not to mention the many Founding Fathers and signers of the Declaration of Independence, this nations first President was a Mason, and the last was Ford.

Numerous corporate giants, numerous law makers (very small number currently, they seem nice and are doing a good job at bringing the Grand Lodge World Conference to Washington DC this spring, making sure it is as best as it can be) not to mention actors, singers .. did you know Brad Paisley is a Freemason? .. Good music
..

Now if you mean every law maker, every President every king queen and so on..... no. Only a select few.



I am not against freemasonry, or lodge members, or any masons who I obviously have much in common with being on the same website reading the same content, making our own conclusions.


Then... its invisible Masons you don't know the names or occupations of or if they even exist?...



Seeking enlightenment is in no way evil, and I apologize if what I say and the research I support makes it seem like I'm that ignorant.


Everyones perception of rationality if different. I wouldn't call you ignorant.. misguided maybe.. only for the fact that you think all people in power are Masons, or even a significant portion.



I am on my own spiritual journey, and so far everything I've learned has led me to distrust masons and the dark power of masonic rituals.


Well then I am not sure what kind of spirituality you are looking for friend.. seriously..

In my spiritual endevours out side of Masonry, it has never lead me to mistrust anyone for any reason.. in fact a true path to self enlightenment, you shouldn't be concerning your self with the enlightenment of others that are not even associated to you in any way.

And how on Earth could you consider Masonic rituals "dark" .. ever read them? .. I just practiced the EA degree around 6 .. was paying extra attention to make sure everything was right.. didn't hear or see anything sinister.. evil.. if you could, could you point out exactly what it is you find "dark" about it?

Sounds like you have been reading some horrible sources of information on what Masonry even is.

A Philosophy.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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I have to say this entire thread perplexes me. Freemasons have nothing from which to take an aggressive or accusatory position upon. I have yet to see anyone who is or claims to be a member of the craft making posts telling us that any group of people does any of the sorts of things the fraternity has been accused of on this board. We come at this from a completely different angle. We are by nature on a defensive position because we are not attacking anyone else, only defending the fraternity from what we in our individual experiences know to be at the very least questionable claims.

On the other side we have some people who have nothing of which to defend from because they nor any group they belong to is being accused of anything. Instead, they accuse the fraternity of all sorts of odd things and then act surprised when they get responses from masons that are unfriendly.

It is all very perplexing. It should be obvious this would happen.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 04:40 AM
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Again thank you to all for posting, my aim is to get to you all today. I am sorry for the delay.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

Well honestly I knew why you used that example; I just wanted to point out that it wasn’t the case in this thread.
Also thanks for giving your 2 cents; I will answer your post in full.

I can fully understand that you have a form of war weariness, but I have been on Above Top Secret for many years, and I feel it is getting worse, I feel there is a large masonic cabal here on the Secret Society forums.

About the hypothesis and conclusion, well the hypothesis is just what it says it is, my conclusion, well I should have rephrased it, but the overall statement I still agree with. But you have a good point, because of the massive debunking done by masons, and the vast amount of threads like: Are you on the square? Anyone riding the goat? I have lost my way, but used my compass! Fellow Crafters of Squares? And whatever, combined with the FREEMASON AGENDA, FREEMASON SATANIC LUDOMANIA, THE FREEMASONIC INFLUENCE ON SS ATS MODS ARE CORRUPT, threads gives the clear impression that masons are if not organized, debating this in a closed environment. Also considering your posts compatibility, it gives the impression of a combined anti masonic agenda, a well thought out one, none the less…

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Overall, you have some valid points. I have explained already why I do feel that control is lost, with that I mean; that control is lost from the administration, and in the hands of the masons.

And yes by my own admission, Masonic Light has been most helpful along my own spiritual path of awakening and I am in his dept. In addition it is not the anti-masonic drivel that is spewed of the internet I am talking about. The trouble is that there are some (probably more by incident than intent) on some of these anti-masonic homepages that are correct, or at least very plausible. And when we try to discuss these, then the material is shot down, not with arguments or facts, but with the only reference, that some spooky sight also has the same information available, and hence my presentation is therefore biased, even when I produce the original sources, and they in fact is shown not to be anti-masonic.

Regarding solution; well it is tough, perhaps an overall tone change, no insinuating pseudo-academic ad hominem. I completely agree with your right to defend yourself against outrageous claims, actually I agree with your right to defend yourself in any case. It is beside the point. I am labelled anti-masonic by a great deal of you, like I label you with the mason tag, it is a stupid behaviour that helps no one, and just keeps us separated, and alienated.

As I wrote to Axeman, the whole star debate, has a weird ring to it, I really do not care about the stars, but it gives the impression to outsiders that your posts are more correct, and sometimes they are, but not when you snip, whine or insinuate, and get applauses for that. Problem with this particular subject is that no matter how I try to explain it comes of as I want stars, and nothing could be further from the truth. Though I would be lying if I said I wanted no replies in the thread.

Also I addressed the point about calling a fellow brother out in public, I understand it, but it still helps the impression that you are indeed a cabal.

But a great post, what bothers me is that we can agree on so much, and still have tons we disagree on. But thank you for your constructive replies.


[edit on 14-12-2007 by Tetragrammaton]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by rationalgaze
 


I'm curious as to your opinions on this, so in typical Masonic fashion, I'll second the motion made by Rock puck:

Why do you think the fraternity is "corrupted", and who corrupted it? And why do you consider Masonic ritual to be "dark"? Thanks in advance for your reply!



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by Tetragrammaton

reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

I can fully understand that you have a form of war weariness, but I have been on Above Top Secret for many years, and I feel it is getting worse, I feel there is a large masonic cabal here on the Secret Society forums.


"cabal"? Hardly. There's a number of individual Masons here for reasons as different as the Masons themselves but unless I'm on the outside of something larger, there's certainly nothing organised by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is that, because we share membership in an organisation, the supposition is that everything we do is in lockstep to an agenda of some form which couldn't be further from the truth. If there's a similarity of response to a particular accusation, it's because we share a similar viewpoint individually, not because we're responding from a single central source.

I also take exception to the facile suggestion by some drive-by trolls that the Masons on the board 'pile-on' when someone negative about Masonry. My experience has been that collectively, we show quite a bit of restraint in the face of accusations that are without merit.


Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
About the hypothesis and conclusion, well the hypothesis is just what it says it is, my conclusion, well I should have rephrased it, but the overall statement I still agree with. But you have a good point, because of the massive debunking done by masons, and the vast amount of threads like: Are you on the square? Anyone riding the goat? I have lost my way, but used my compass! Fellow Crafters of Squares? And whatever, combined with the FREEMASON AGENDA, FREEMASON SATANIC LUDOMANIA, THE FREEMASONIC INFLUENCE ON SS ATS MODS ARE CORRUPT, threads gives the clear impression that masons are if not organized, debating this in a closed environment.


A similarity of opinion can be misinterpreted as an example of organisation or it can be seen as similarity of opinion. If by closed environment, you're suggesting a closed mind, I'd just draw your attention to the responses you've received on this thread compared to a typical Masonic-Devil-Worshipper-type of thread. I think, like most people, we're collectively open to rational debate so long as a certain modest level of decorum is maintained. It's when the 'debate' veers-off into La-La Land that there's a collective 'not-this-shyte-again' response. But would any other identifiable group respond differently? But again, similarity of response isn't emblematic of organisation.


Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
Also considering your posts compatibility, it gives the impression of a combined anti masonic agenda, a well thought out one, none the less…


I presume you mean pro-Masonic agenda. And if you'd ever seen Masons in action, you'd be witness to cat-herding writ large.



Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Overall, you have some valid points. I have explained already why I do feel that control is lost, with that I mean; that control is lost from the administration, and in the hands of the masons.


The administration is quite in control of ATS and Masons are as subject to the T&C of ATS as anyone else, witness Lightindarkness' recent warning. We pop-off, we get warned; continue to pop-off, get banned. So far as I'm aware, no self-identified Mason has been banned although I'll sit corrected if I'm out-to-lunch on that.


Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
But a great post, what bothers me is that we can agree on so much, and still have tons we disagree on. But thank you for your constructive replies.


Welcome to the real world. What makes us different is what makes us interesting as a species. So long as those differences aren't used to divide and belittle, who's harmed?

Have a good one

Fitz



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:07 AM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

"cabal"? Hardly. There's a number of individual Masons here for reasons as different as the Masons themselves but unless I'm on the outside of something larger, there's certainly nothing organised by any stretch of the imagination. The problem is that, because we share membership in an organisation, the supposition is that everything we do is in lockstep to an agenda of some form which couldn't be further from the truth. If there's a similarity of response to a particular accusation, it's because we share a similar viewpoint individually, not because we're responding from a single central source.



I´ll confirm this. Not only do I not know ANY of the masons at ats, I havent even U2Ud with any of them let alone established some sort of consensus.


I also take exception to the facile suggestion by some drive-by trolls that the Masons on the board 'pile-on' when someone negative about Masonry. My experience has been that collectively, we show quite a bit of restraint in the face of accusations that are without merit.


That statement was made by me in a rare moment of compassion for anti-masons. I protest being called a drive-by-troll.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
I also take exception to the facile suggestion by some drive-by trolls that the Masons on the board 'pile-on' when someone negative about Masonry. My experience has been that collectively, we show quite a bit of restraint in the face of accusations that are without merit.


That statement was made by me in a rare moment of compassion for anti-masons. I protest being called a drive-by-troll.


Was it? My bad then. Mea culpa.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:29 AM
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WOW !!!

As a non Mason (but likely soon to be a Mason inquisitor in the new year
) I find it really preposterous the amount of sledging going on in this thread for its own sake, without substance, based on heresy at best...

If you have a genuine, specific beef about Freemasonry with regard to an experience either you or someone you know has had, by all means detail same and I'm sure the Brothers on this board will do their level best to explain situation from a Masonic point of view as best they can...

Baseless and nefarious accusations do nothing to either further the good cause of Masonry or validate claims of poor behavior leveled by some opposed to Masonry...

Lets get all this stuff out of the open in forum....Those who have the ticker to duke it out (most of the Masons on this board thus far) Vs those who are grasping at straws...

Personally speaking, tho I am not a Brother,yet...Reading what the Brothers have posted on ATS over the last year has only greatly strengthened my resolved to make myself a better person in order to serve my community to the best of my ability as a Mason in the future...

Thankyou to my future Brothers for your advice, and most recently your acceptance and encouragement to enter the Craft...

I hope at some point soon I can address you all as Brothers...This will be a great moment in my life


I will take my time, no doubt and do this as my heart dictates....

And to think a couple of you have indicated it would be your pleasure to accept me should I choose to travel to the US, this is such a special thing....

Amazing


I hope in my journey over the next year or two I can prove my potential US brothers that I am worthy and we can indeed sit in lodge together and perhaps dine togheter...

That is a near term goal of mine

Thankyou all gentlemen, for your kind words, encouragement...But....Most of all for your non biased handling of those who don't like the Craft...

In many places on the web, people like this would be abruptly abused verbally and what not....

At least the Brothers of the Craft on ATS have the dignity as men of great character to face and answer any questions thrown their way, no matter the tone...

I have not seen a single Brother lose his cool over a question or silly accusation made here...

Every Brother here is a true credit to the Craft...I only hope my heart of hearts is where it should be when I approach my local lodge in January...

Thank you to all those who have helped throughout many threads,, you know who you are, as you are on my friends list (mostly


Peace



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:42 AM
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I have a special request to ats-masons here that is slightly off-topic (bear with me for just one page teta). But your attention is here and there is no need to open an entire thread for the request:

I will have to hold a lecture in my lodge soon and Im looking for FRESH lecture ideas (not things that have been over-used). Any ideas or weblinks?



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Overall, you have some valid points. I have explained already why I do feel that control is lost, with that I mean; that control is lost from the administration, and in the hands of the masons.


Then we agree to disagree because as was previously pointed out LightinDarkness' recent 'warn' demonstrates that we are not in control.


And yes by my own admission, Masonic Light has been most helpful along my own spiritual path of awakening and I am in his dept. In addition it is not the anti-masonic drivel that is spewed of the internet I am talking about. The trouble is that there are some (probably more by incident than intent) on some of these anti-masonic homepages that are correct, or at least very plausible.


Plausible and correct are far from similar. I have seen numerous theories here on ATS and I often think to myself, "Wow, what if?", but without fact it is still only speculation to me.


And when we try to discuss these, then the material is shot down, not with arguments or facts, but with the only reference, that some spooky sight also has the same information available, and hence my presentation is therefore biased, even when I produce the original sources, and they in fact is shown not to be anti-masonic.


I read almost everyone of the all-time popular posts before joining myself and I think my fellow Brothers have done a very admirable job eloquently and lucidly disproving these sites with solid fact and with no supposition.


Regarding solution; well it is tough, perhaps an overall tone change, no insinuating pseudo-academic ad hominem.


I think everyone of the Masons who responded feel this is an excellent idea, myself included.


I completely agree with your right to defend yourself against outrageous claims, actually I agree with your right to defend yourself in any case. It is beside the point. I am labelled anti-masonic by a great deal of you, like I label you with the mason tag, it is a stupid behaviour that helps no one, and just keeps us separated, and alienated.


I do not feel that you are anti-Masonic.


As I wrote to Axeman, the whole star debate, has a weird ring to it, I really do not care about the stars, but it gives the impression to outsiders that your posts are more correct, and sometimes they are, but not when you snip, whine or insinuate, and get applauses for that. Problem with this particular subject is that no matter how I try to explain it comes of as I want stars, and nothing could be further from the truth. Though I would be lying if I said I wanted no replies in the thread.


To me it does not appear that there is an inordinate amount of stars applied to Masons post. Also, who is to say who infact stars these posts anyway. We can only assume and everyone knows where that leads.


Also I addressed the point about calling a fellow brother out in public, I understand it, but it still helps the impression that you are indeed a cabal.


I have not, nor do I plan on particpating in a behind the scenes plot or plan to besmirch a fellow ATSer. I have communicated with other Brothers about a tact to take in regards repsonding ro certain rhetorical posts and as previously mentioned have been contacted myself in regards to my own posts. None of these were part of a plan to systematically reply to a member in a concerted way and were more of a policing nature in regards the Brothers.


But a great post, what bothers me is that we can agree on so much, and still have tons we disagree on. But thank you for your constructive replies.


Thank you. If you allow me to be frank for a moment I once thought you to be a bit condescending and stand-offish. I now have much more insight into how you think and feel and find you to be a rather intelligent, eloquent and humble person. I am glad that we can agree on many of these points and only shows how poorly it reflects on someone to pre-judge another, myself most assuredly included.

I for one am glad you created this thread. It has allowed us to have a very constructive and civil discourse and I have immensely enjoyed reading your replies as well as those of my fellow Masons. Here is to open and free thinking and of mutually beneficial dialogue to all.


[edit on 14-12-2007 by AugustusMasonicus]



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
Next I would like to ask the masons on this board fore forgiveness, I have acted wrong, again. And made a huge generalisation, some of my statements where insinuating at some places, and I could have produced a more streamlined post, old habits die slow.


It takes a man to admit when he has acted wrongly, and I respect that. Thanks also for the kind words.


I completely agree with your dog analogy, and I have heard it before from masons, such as your self. It is an understandable reaction, a defence mechanism you might call it.


Yes. Someone made the comment that the reaction described is a manifestation of some sort of weakness, and that we should not suffer ourselves to resort to it. I agree, we shouldn't but men are men, and sometimes our passions get the best of us. It's times like those when I see the insignia on my hand and remember to use that compass.

One thing though, that people seem to always misunderstand: Freemasonry does not try to define your "moral compass" for you. Masonry only admonishes us not to let our passions and desires cause us to cross the "line" we draw for ourselves with the Compasses. What seems immoral or wrong to me might to someone else be perfectly OK. A perfect example: homosexuality. Some people see it as wrong and immoral, some do not. So each man defines his own boundary - not the fraternity. Masonry certainly holds no position on homosexuality - one of the best Masons I know is gay, so what? He's a good man. Some people might have a problem with that; I don't. It's really all subjective.


Actually reading your posts, well I have spent a lot of time thinking… Well bottom line self-realisation can be a pain.


A pain and a blessing at once, in most cases.




Masons are defending themselves against outrageous accusations. They are the most visible secret society, so visible that they have to deny the obvious, that they themselves are indeed what they claim not to be.


I'm not sure I followed that one; could you please rephrase?


Fatigue has struck the masons, every time an attack is launched, forceful and well planned counter attacks, slaying any aggression, and their defence makes the Israeli military look like boy scouts. The anti-masonic propaganda machine seems to be running on endless supplies every time a mason gets another notch on his pummel stick, another anti-mason just seems to reappear out of thin air. Like god himself have send them here to test faith and will of the followers of enlightenment.


OK now I'm not sure you're not being facetious... I've often looked at posters on this board as personal tests, but what you said goes a little further than that -- too far IMO, but you DO have a flair for the dramatic.



You also mention the problem that the masses to use your label, hold you to higher standards, this is incorrect in my opinion, the masses hold you against your own high standards, which they should, like you would a politician or a police officer.


OK but what standard? To be moral? To be charitable? To be virtuous? Most of the ideals in Masonry are lofty goals for anyone, and I would imagine most never truly reach them. But the act of reaching -- THAT is Masonry. It is simply laboring to build yourself into something better. Some people just can't wrap their .s around that.


And you aren’t all guilty, if I could rephrase it, you are acting like a guilty party, most of the time, because you react so strongly against attacks. (Best defence is offence?) Of course I know why you react that way, and I understand it, it does not make you guilty, it just makes you look guilty.


That makes more sense than your initial comment. But even a passive denial doesn't work; in fact passive denial seems to make it worse. People take your silence for acquiescence, unless you speak up. But in some cases, you simply cannot say what you want to say without coming off sounding like a pompous ass. Doesn't mean you are one, but you might sound like one for a spell. I've probably had more than my fair share of "pompous ass" moments... doesn't make it right, mind you.


Ill hold to my claim, that the masons on this board are allowed more than any other party to ridicule their opponents. Several times have I seen a mason attack a person, though not directly but with subliminal pseudo-academic ad hominem attacks.


We have established that this happens, and it shouldn't. I really can't speak on it anymore than that.


One, the mason has a friend or someone holding his hand over the mason, who has a position in the executive administration of Above Top Secret.


I seriously doubt that this has ever been the case; certainly not on the merit of being a Mason.


Or secondly, the moderators on these boards don’t have either the intellectual capacity to understand these attacks


I find this to be highly unlikely as well.


or simply don’t have the time to get deep enough under the skin of the board i.e. the moderators are spread to thin.


You probably hit it right there. Intrepid and MM are the only ones I ever see in here. Maybe Um_Gazz (?) or a few others pop in from time to time, but I have rarely seen any of this forum's "official" moderators (kinglizard, WyrdeOne, benevolent tyrant, chissler, Dulcimer, Duzey, HarlemHottie, lombozo) in the threads. There are exceptions, I'm sure -- I don't read every thread -- but there are comments from both sides that have gone unmarked that shouldn't have. No disrespect to the mods -- you guys volunteer your time and it's definitely a thankless job.


I have a military leadership education, and I sure do know why you don’t attack or call out a fellow brother in front of the public audience. But this is exactly one of the circumstances that give you the appearance I am talking about. But I understand why.


Then you have just shown that, to the astute individual, this does not make us seem "guilty" at all.


I don’t know how many masons are in the administration and neither does the administration, but for the record, yes I know only of one, at the moment, and for the record, I have never seen him, or heard of him to have misused his authority on these boards.


Nor have I, and I'm sure we never will.


I will not bring facts into this discussion at the moment; I have several times shown acknowledged sources and data, regarding the development and evolution of esoteric teachings, religions and man itself. These can of course always be refuted; this is exactly the trouble with science.


I can only apologize if I have done this in the past.


And it is not that you don’t agree, it is that you always categorically deny that the sources that are presented, could indeed have a valid point! Well subjective again, but it is no less how I feel.


To be fair, I think you are holding me to who I was/how I posted in my early ATS years, if indeed you were speaking of me personally. I have grown and learned much since then, and I think that if you were to present the same information today that you presented -- well, whenever you did -- you would find that it would be a different conversation, at least from me.

Great thread, I have enjoyed it and gained some insight as well.


I'll look forward to your replies.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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In my research I have found that the die hard Anti's are found in Europe rather than the US.

So I would like those who are anti to please simply reply with your county (no need to be specific)



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by corsig
 


Really? I would imagine the Europeans are more open then Americans? Would be an interesting research to see where the most malcontent for Masonry originates.

I bet they are all Swedish.


*no offense to Swedes. ER or however you say people from Sweden.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Really? I would imagine the Europeans are more open then Americans? Would be an interesting research to see where the most malcontent for Masonry originates.


Doesn't surprise me. Didn't Masonry originate in Europe? Thus there would be more history there.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:25 PM
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I consider swearing to slit your own throat and stuff like that to be dark... Admittedly I've never been initiated, I'm way too young for that. If I could compile everything I've learned somehow I'd do it in an instant to back up my thoughts... I had an early third eye opening
and I feel that most of everything I've learned about the "dark side" of freemasonry is true. If you've ever read about Akhenaton and the dark solar cult in Ancient Egypt which Michael Tsarion goes into (i'm not sure of your guys' opinion of him) also Ralph Ellis (author of K2: quest of the gods) and various blogs around the internet seem to be making the same connections, about how Akhenaton manipulated the powers of freemasonry with slaves and worship of Aton, leading the way for future civilizations to rule over the weak and get exactly what they want. It may seem like I'm simply regurgitating information I've learned, but my learnings have sort of shaped my view of reality as we know it, and I can't say my life is that bad right now...

Thanks for being open and honest, my only reason for being quiet is that innate fear of being completely wrong about this stuff, seeing as how you guys are experienced with actual membership and things like that.. peace



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by rationalgaze
 




I consider swearing to slit your own throat and stuff like that to be dark... Admittedly I've never been initiated, I'm way too young for that.


At our next initiation (Tomorrow unless the Winter Storm stops us..) .. they are reading the initiate a letter that explains the penalties are symbolic.

To me, that is stupid.

It is symbolic, and a rational man should have the ability to decipher rationality to his own accord.. it should not be stupefied and spoon fed.

What you read about Masons is "bad" or "dark" because that is all you looked for.. did you ever bother to read the other side? Visit a Masonic board or visit a lodge? Or are you the type of man who only looks to one side of the argument?



Thanks for being open and honest, my only reason for being quiet is that innate fear of being completely wrong about this stuff, seeing as how you guys are experienced with actual membership and things like that.. peace


Because of perceived rationality, we can rarely say "your absolutely" wrong .. its all based on what you read and how you perceive it. I wish that you could read more on the benefits and good works of Masonry.. but to honestly appreciate you should talk to a Mason, meet a few, go to an open lodge, partake in a charity held by a lodge or petition (you can always leave).



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Really? I would imagine the Europeans are more open then Americans? Would be an interesting research to see where the most malcontent for Masonry originates.


Oh hell no. Quite the opposite. Many European Masons are so hush hush about their membership that most people don't even know there is a lodge anywhere.

Americans are far and away more open about it.

Italy, Ireland, Poland are a few areas that I have heard firsthand accounts that they wouldn't dare wear a ring or put a sticker on their car.

In England they wanted to pass a law that judges, lawyers, cops and other enforcement jobs had to make known their Masonic affiliation. They changed it to say any club/organization so it didn't seem to point a finger only at Masonry and to make it easier to pass the law.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by rationalgaze
I consider swearing to slit your own throat and stuff like that to be dark... Admittedly I've never been initiated, I'm way too young for that. If I could compile everything I've learned somehow I'd do it in an instant to back up my thoughts... I had an early third eye opening
and I feel that most of everything I've learned about the "dark side" of freemasonry is true. If you've ever read about Akhenaton and the dark solar cult in Ancient Egypt which Michael Tsarion goes into (i'm not sure of your guys' opinion of him) also Ralph Ellis (author of K2: quest of the gods) and various blogs around the internet seem to be making the same connections, about how Akhenaton manipulated the powers of freemasonry with slaves and worship of Aton, leading the way for future civilizations to rule over the weak and get exactly what they want. It may seem like I'm simply regurgitating information I've learned, but my learnings have sort of shaped my view of reality as we know it, and I can't say my life is that bad right now...

Thanks for being open and honest, my only reason for being quiet is that innate fear of being completely wrong about this stuff, seeing as how you guys are experienced with actual membership and things like that.. peace



Dude- I respect your opinion and the fact that it seems you have read some books to back up your feelings is admirable.

It's OK not to dig Masonry. It's not for everyone.

Please tell me more about Michael Tsarion. I've not heard about him yet.

Cory



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by rationalgaze
about how Akhenaton manipulated the powers of freemasonry with slaves and worship of Aton, leading the way for future civilizations to rule over the weak and get exactly what they want.


Wow. I do not mean to be crass at all, but I am being completely honest: have you read the actual history of Akhenaton? His attempt to move egyptian religion towards sun worship was a power grab, and it failed miserably and completely. As soon as he died, the religious establishment destroyed his new capital and reverted worship back to where it was previously. How is it that conspiracy theorists pick this as the defining moment in global control when the society acted so violently and vehemently opposed it - to the point to where they almost wiped all mention of Akhenton from their own history?

If this is the example of how the "strong" rule over the "weak," how is it that the weak won and the strong got smacked?




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