Islam In The World: The silence of the moderates

Originally posted by Bunch
I remember in the thread of the British teacher, that some people went as far as blaming the teacher for putting herself at the mercy of sharia law.

As I said already a hundred thousand times, I KNOW not all Muslims are like that, but then why the silence when atrocities are being committe in the name of their religion.

And has been mentioned ad infinitum, there have been condemnations but it hasn't been replayed again and again and again and again and again like the atrocities by your media (or at least the ones YOU watch).

Muslims: Teddy Bear Protesters Don't Represent Us
Bloggers condemn Sudan for arrest
British Muslims condemn Sudan sentence on teacher
Muslim Organisations Condemn Sudan Over Handling of Teddygate

Any more research I can do for you? Or will you still shut your eyes and cup your ears screaming 'lalalalalala'?

Originally posted by SimiusDei
As long as they keep it TO THEMSELVES and don't push it on me, they will hear no complaints from this end.

Is what they do wrong by most of our standards? Of course it is.

However, if people are going to preach freedom of religion, it should extend to ALL religions. I don't care if it's voodoo, islam or christianity.

Jasn

I agree with you, but the problem is at what point does freedom turn into oppression?

When you look at Darfur of 300 to 400 thousand killed and millions in a living hell when should the world stop turning its back, and what if anything can be done? I was for helping Iraq, but after 5 years they would rather still kill each other while living in their self created little hell than to work together to create a great new place to live.

As much as many believe that the US is chomping at the bit to go into another Muslim country I would say that Iraq has been a great lesson not to no matter what the reason is. Somalia was our lesson not to go into Africa again anytime soon.

The other part is that as hard as they are on each other their view of non-Muslims is even worst, and we need to be eradicated. With these extremist it is not a situation of them living their life and we live ours. It is a world where we accept their way of life (a living hell) or die, and moderate Muslims are only a small step above us non-Muslims in they will need to do the same or get the same results.


[edit on 9-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by infinite


You need to check out the other current thread on this issue. A majority believes that Islam is twisted, Heck even so called believers are saying that they dis-agree with all the bad parts and ignore them or they just say Bush is just as bad as Muhammad. Bush hasn't claimed he was a prophet and he did not sleep with a 9 year old girl. Islam is evil and so was its so called prophet.

reply to post by Beachcoma


Why are you treating me like I'm bashing you or your religion? I have thick skin so I don't get rattle or emotional when someone talks to me about something I hold dear.

Thanks for the links, and be mindful that I'm going by what the article says, I don't live in the UK so I don't get to see what happens there in local at 6.

What I have seen here so far, not even one compelling arguement and plenty of people calling me out telling me how dare I critize Islam, which I haven't.

Further proving the point of the article.

Originally posted by Bunch
What I have seen here so far, not even one compelling arguement and plenty of people calling me out telling me how dare I critize Islam, which I haven't.

Your argument was the moderates were silent and not speaking out against. Other people pointed out that they weren't . You said they were, again. Other's pointed out again where they weren't. You came up with another case of extremist positions, then asking why moderates were silent. Again, you were pointed in the direction where moderates were speaking out against such actions.

Nobody was saying that you were bashing Islam nor did people call you out for criticising. People were pointing out to you what you were looking for -- the voice from the moderates. You chose to ignore it, repeatedly, citing other examples to prove your point. Hence the last line in my last post.

Now you are engaged in deflection, making this about you instead while ignoring any posts contrary to what you have already made your mind up about. Proving the point of the article? Hardly. More like proving my point.

As for the links I posted, infinite, who lives in the UK has already told you what happened. Straight from someone who happens to live in the UK. That's not mass media there, that's a personal account straight from a resident.

Will you continue to prove my last assertion right?



Go ahead. Give it your best shot.

This thread is an excellent example of why some of us do not hear moderate Muslims talking about human rights abuse by other Muslims.

If those that show how those moderate Muslims are ignored are also ignored, then I think this thread has proved its point.

PS: just to keep it clear, I am an atheist.

reply to post by Beachcoma


Its is not my intention to deflect any attention or nothing. I thank you for the links, and I will say that I was misinformed to some degree.

Its good to see that Muslims are speaking out against this actions. Would you agree with me that there is some work to be done though when it comes to Islam and the practices of some of this extreme views of it though?

One more question, if you were to divide how many people are moderates and how many are extremist, how would you divide that?

Originally posted by johnsky
All groups of people, whether categorized by race, creed, or religion, will forever contain extremists.

You are very right, but one thing you need to look at is throughout history extreme religious movements still had a small moral compass that even when bad events happened they corrected back. In the extreme non-religious movements the moral compass was totally absent.

Just as example, when you compared the Cambodia’s killing fields (2 million) to the Crusades (1.2 million) there more killed in the non-religious killing fields and in a extremely short period of time of just a few years. Also nothing compares to the non-religious Communism that is at 400 million worldwide with some individuals like Stalin at 20 million alone.

The sooner all of you realize that your religion is almost exactly like theirs, the sooner you will be able to stop beating the war drums and focus on something other than destroying yourselves and everything society has tried so hard to build.

The problem is when you start to talk about 100s of millions that live a very extreme religious life then it is not the same across all religions. If in America we had 1000s of Branch Davidians type cults then we would start to experience what is going on in the Middle East and that influence could start to have a worldwide affect too.

If there really is a god, the last people to get into any form of a heaven are the religious.

And yes, I'm painting you ALL with the same brush, cause I've never heard a fresh argument from a single one of you. It's always "but they did this, so we're better".

Religion is a motivating tool that can be used for good or evil. When used for good it is from a higher purpose and much good can come out of it. When used for evil it becomes just like all the non-religious motivating tools (like nationalism as example)and it is not based on a higher purpose, but the selfish purpose of man.

The main point here is that right here and now, not 30 years ago or 300 years ago the motivating tool that is being used for the selfish purpose of man, that is also affecting the world as a whole, is Islam. Since it is affecting the world it needs to be dealt with, and it really doesn’t matter that the motivating tool is a religious or non-religious one for in either case they would still need to be countered in the same way.

Originally posted by Bunch
Would you agree with me that there is some work to be done though when it comes to Islam and the practices of some of this extreme views of it though?

Work to be done? Not to Islam itself. But some of the people who call themselves Muslim, yeah, no doubt. A lot of these people don't read enough about their own religion (which is ironic considering the first 'word of God' revealed to Muhammad was "Read"). They also seem to not want to use their brains for thinking, preferring to remain in ignorance and letting others who have their own spin and biases to do the thinking, in clear contradiction to the whole point of the faith.

Originally posted by Bunch
One more question, if you were to divide how many people are moderates and how many are extremist, how would you divide that?

Hard to say. But a good estimate could be garnered from looking at the economic situation and education level of each individual Muslim majority nation. It's different with each country, but I'd venture a guess that the percentage of extremists goes up as the level of education and personal wealth goes down. Not really surprising there, since poverty and lack of education are hallmarks of a tyrannical government. When people are oppressed and backed into a corner, they turn into animals.

There are notable exceptions, of course, with Saudi Arabia being the worse of them all. I can't condemn that nation enough...I've met a lot of people from that country, enough for a poll (although you know the problem with polls) that I can say that more than half of those from Saudi Arabia are zealots and/or just plain nuts. Please note that this particular paragraph is just from my own personal observations. I could have been just plain unlucky to have met overzealous whackjobs that do not represent their country.

At any rate, the fundies who would go out and make an ass out of themselves and the whole faith in the process aren't as many and widespread as you'd think throughout the Muslim world. The world is actually a beautiful place but that alone doesn't sell newspapers.

Anyway, check out the link I posted on the first page. It deals with this socio-economic angle. I haven't updated it though... kind of demoralised by the lack of support there.

All religions have extremists in their midst

www.rickross.com...

and terrorism isn't confined to Islam.

I've known lots of muslims, most good, some not so good - same with any group of people.

The problem I'm having is with the term "moderate" muslims.
Most muslims see themselves as simply muslim, rather than moderate or any other current buzzword.

Originally posted by infinite
Did you know Islam is the only arabhamic religion that states Jews, Christians and Muslims will all go to heaven? Of course you didn't, I'm guessing you haven't even read the Qur'an

(is a Christian btw)

Question- Yes, the Koran does state all three will enter heaven but it also says only those who believe that Mohammad was a true prophet will be saved from damnation.

Christians and Jews view Mohammad as a false prophet, almost by the very definition of the two religions. Basically, the only religion that believes he was a true prophet is Islam.

So, how can Christians and Jews be accepted into their heaven when we obviously reject Mohammad as a false prophet?

You could say the same about Christianity - as most Christian doctrines state one must adopt Jesus as ones personal savior to be forgiven ones sins, by Christian doctrine both Jews (who see Jesus basically as a renegade rabbi) and Muslims (who see Jesus as a prophet, but not the Son of God) are out of luck.

Originally posted by xmotex
You could say the same about Christianity - as most Christian doctrines state one must adopt Jesus as ones personal savior to be forgiven ones sins, by Christian doctrine both Jews (who see Jesus basically as a renegade rabbi) and Muslims (who see Jesus as a prophet, but not the Son of God) are out of luck.

Not sure if you were talking to me but if you were, you totally missed the point of my question.

Christians claim only those who believe Jesus was the Son of God go to heaven. We never say one can still get into Heaven without Jesus.

Islam does. But it also says one must accept Mohammad as a true prophet. By definition Jews and Christians don't accept Mohammad as a prophet so the belief that Jews and Christians can go to the Islamic version of heaven as long as they accept Mohammad doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Question- Yes, the Koran does state all three will enter heaven but it also says only those who believe that Mohammad was a true prophet will be saved from damnation.

Christians and Jews view Mohammad as a false prophet, almost by the very definition of the two religions. Basically, the only religion that believes he was a true prophet is Islam.

So, how can Christians and Jews be accepted into their heaven when we obviously reject Mohammad as a false prophet?

Again, you haven't read the Qur'an.

The Holy Qur'an states that Christians and Jews (people of the book) will have their own place in paradise.

The passage states,

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans or Christians - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall have nothing to fear or regret”

Nothing about the prophet

Originally posted by infinite

The Holy Qur'an states that Christians and Jews (people of the book) will have their own place in paradise.

The passage states,

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans or Christians - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall have nothing to fear or regret”

Nothing about the prophet

Not much about 'heaven' there either mate. Just says 'nothing to fear or regret' ?!?!

Originally posted by infinite Again, you haven't read the Qur'an....Nothing about the prophet

Actually, I have. Among the things you mention, the belief in Allah's messenger, Mohammad, is required:

See: Qur'an 2:4 (which mentions one must specifically believe in Mohammad's teachings) 4:136 (which lists everything required to inherit "the hereafter" including accepting Allah's messenger Mohammad), and 2:285 (which then tells us that we must believe any of Allah's prophets, supposedly Moses, Jesus, or Mohammad).

So, the first verse supports what I am saying while the last verse supports what you are saying.

What a mess!

We never say one can still get into Heaven without Jesus.

Well that all depends which Christians you ask

For example: jesus-is-savior.com




[edit on 12/9/07 by xmotex]

reply to post by xmotex


Um... is that like the Landover Baptist site? I didn't look to hard at that website because it looked ridiculous but please correct me if I'm wrong. They also seem to say that Jesus is the only way so I'm not sure why you gave me that link in refutation to what I said above when it doesn't disagree with my above statement.