Alternative to money?

Money is the cause of all evil, well the pursuit of it is, no doubt the majority of you are aware of Star Trek and as some of you are aware at the times that it is set Earth has done away with the concept of money, people have roles and everything is provided.
Could this be a reality? how would jobs be assigned, the garbage man, the policeman the entertainer? I.Q? genetic disposition/tampering? would all still be seen as equal?

Personally i would love to see the concept of money abolished and a method of bartering items and skills for goods and services, but that will never happen again in my life time.

Any thoughts.

Nice post RancidCat

I'm not quite sure the abolition of money is the way to go...Personally, I believe moving ourselves away from fiat money, to a monetary system backed by some kind of resource (metals, etc.) is the way to go...

You ask a VERY interesting question and I'm sure you'll get replies accordingly...

Peace

RC this is also i thought i too have had as seen by this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

A quote from one of my songs....

"The kindergarten class is over. It's time to grow some hair upon our faces."

A spiritual awakening must happen, which I believe is slowly happening.

To me, money is like kids toy or something. Very childish. How do we rid of it easily? Free energy and forbidden technology being made public would help.

Either that, or a disaster needs to come and wipe us back to the tribal villiage level. That, coupled with a widespead spiritual awakening, so we are not suceptable to the same tyrannical powers that could develop, like in our psast and present.

reply to post by thesaint


Sorry should of searched better , i was very interested in the last post by "homeskillet" he made a good point there.

reply to post by RancidCat


IMO, the ultimate human society will be some form of anarchism or communism. I think this will include no money, and no private property. All commodities that people want they will get, society will be based on need not want. It will work as long as greed can be kept at bay... There may be some barter, though, where a form currency seems to be necessary (like inmates use cigarettes in jail), but hopefully money will be gone for good. Money is just an intermediary in exchange, if you think about it humans only need desired items to make exchange...

Wait, what's the difference whether I accumulate money or beaver pelts?
Horde cash or grain?
Make weaselly deals and cheat to grab up some goats and sheep or cash?

What's the difference?

You mean to say that before the "greenback" greed did not exist?

As long as there have been things to have and hold there has been greed. Even trying to force its abolition with threats of death and imprisonment as the communists have tried just creates an oligarch up top who justified their greed by claiming it is deserved or "earned" and a black criminal market at the bottom who exists to spite the "legislation of equality."

Anarchy is far more likely to last than socialism for the simple fact that I know me myself will actively work against any inception of socialism to spite my own face. I hate having the 30-50% of my earnings taken from me now. Start taking more and I don't care one bit about "free" this or that the "government" will claim to be providing. Cars will start exploding and people will start dying. Or kill me and people like me. That's the only way that will work.

That's my nature. What's mine is mine. Nobody else's. Maybe if I didn't spend my whole life living in a system that threatens to imprison me or kill me if I do not accept the daily theft of my property I would have a more charitable heart. We'll never know. What I do know is they take more and more and the "governments" threats grow ever increasingly more hostile. Therefore I protect mine and my own with more voracity. Such is life in America.

There will be a day when money is no longer needed.


But along that road we must make gradual steps.


The first thing we must do is make compound interest illegal. Think about it: if one person can gather up enough cash that the interest pays for the cost of living, any cash they gather up after that will work to start increasing the size of their cash bubble. Over enough time they start to gather more and more money, faster and faster, until one day everyone else is so weak by comparison that this person, in the last calculation of compound interest, has gathered up ALL OF IT.


Making money just from having money? EVIL. You should not be allowed to sit on your behind and watch money roll in. You should not be allowed to live in this world off of the labor of others without producing something of value yourself.


A very intelligent argument can be made for the idea of a negative interest rate. In this system those who hoard money must watch their stockpile decrease over time. Which would discourage hoarding and encourage spending. Think about it... if all today's disgusting problems are caused by positive interest rates, then what would the opposite do? Fix things? Think about it. It has been tried before, with great success for the societies which did this, but it is not in the interest of those who have the mindset of bankers... people who want to lord over other human beings and force economic slavery upon them.


Continuing the idea of a negative interest rate, think of this: If you create a product from your labor and skills, that product over time will diminish. Whether it be a car or a house, one day it will fall apart. So... shouldn't the money you made on that thing decrease in value at the same rate? Today people think of money as a store of value which does not decrease over time, but this is in contrast to the fact that what you did to earn the money was something that will not exist one day. So, in order for money to represent a thing, it must not only represent it at the time of its inception but also represent what it is at a later date. Doing this will provide an incentive to create products which retain value over a long period of time. Our cars will not be built to last 4 years, but perhaps 20 or 30. Our city infrastructure will be built to promote economic strength in the future, not just today.

Using the compound interest model we have today, everyone is chasing immediate profits but sacrificing the future. We want more money now, at the expense of our environment, our safety, our future, and our humanity.

If money's value decreases over time, the opposite effect will happen. We will be happy to forego a profit for now if it means that the future will hold a lot more in store for us. Our environment will be looked after. Our schools will get the best educations. Our health will be a top priority. Money will always be invested in what promotes strength, stability, cohesion, trust, and happiness, rather than greed, corruption, theft, cutthroat competition, hoarding, raping, and pillaging.


The second thing that must be changed about money: it should come into existence every time someone does work. It should not be a fixed amount that spreads thin among the population. The amount of money should grow with population and productivity. And when a product created disappears, the money that represents it should disappear too.


Lastly, outlaw a tax on labor. Working for money is an exchange, not a profit. If you tax labor you are just implementing a clever form of slavery. The income tax is not just unconstitutional, it is not just illegal, it is IMMORAL.


The work a man does IS HIS ALONE. You should not have to pay someone else for the right to do something for yourself!





[edit on 3-12-2007 by dionysius9]

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Wait, what's the difference whether I accumulate money or beaver pelts?
Horde cash or grain?
Make weaselly deals and cheat to grab up some goats and sheep or cash?

What's the difference?

You mean to say that before the "greenback" greed did not exist?

As long as there have been things to have and hold there has been greed. Even trying to force its abolition with threats of death and imprisonment as the communists have tried just creates an oligarch up top who justified their greed by claiming it is deserved or "earned" and a black criminal market at the bottom who exists to spite the "legislation of equality."

Anarchy is far more likely to last than socialism for the simple fact that I know me myself will actively work against any inception of socialism to spite my own face. I hate having the 30-50% of my earnings taken from me now. Start taking more and I don't care one bit about "free" this or that the "government" will claim to be providing. Cars will start exploding and people will start dying. Or kill me and people like me. That's the only way that will work.

That's my nature. What's mine is mine. Nobody else's. Maybe if I didn't spend my whole life living in a system that threatens to imprison me or kill me if I do not accept the daily theft of my property I would have a more charitable heart. We'll never know. What I do know is they take more and more and the "governments" threats grow ever increasingly more hostile. Therefore I protect mine and my own with more voracity. Such is life in America.

There will be nothing to fight. I once called myself a revolutionary, but I think it's more likely humans will progress to our ultimate society through evolution not revolution.

Communism and anarchism are both stateless classless societies. If there are differences they are subtle. The societies that have been called 'communism' in our world never attained the communism Marx talked about.

This is one of my primary issues and i agree very much. I actually think it is inevitable. We're nearing a point at which money and the like can be abandoned, however such a change isn't easy and it's likely we don't make the transition and set off on another trip around the loop. So how could this actually happen? Glad you asked... First off, it won't be any form of bartering, for that is just another form of money and will take us around the circle of hell again. As a prerequisite, a raising of consciousness across the globe must become the norm, not the exception. By this i mean people reaching the honest conclusion that if there's just the two of us, and i must choose one of us to live and the other be executed, i will without reservation nor condition, choose for you to live (all things being equal). Please don't debate this imperfect attempt to relay this concept; just try to understand what i mean. So now most of us are these fabulous people and all of us are doing what appears to be the right thing at the time.
now to do away with the money. I say it can work for a few reasons. 1. there's PLENTY enough for everybody. it's simply a problem of distribution and hoarding. 2. everything we produce can be made 10x better. Lights can last forever. Cars can last faaar beyond 5, 10, 20years. By only producing the products we really want and making them the best we can, Without the money factor, we can shut down the hyundai factory and turn it into a ferrari factory. no more 19" televisions. if u need a tv, go to the tv place and get a 54". Just roll the sucker onto a truck and tada!!! naturally comes the question, "Who's gonna be the garbage man?" Likely to be the guy is the one most bothered by the garbage. or you'll handle your own. or you won't and the community around you or some kind individual will pick up the slack. or you'll just sit in your garbage. in fact garbage men and other doing nasty or laborious jobs will probably enjoy quite a bit of social status now given to the fortunate rather than the hard working.
of course, chaos would be the norm rather than the exception at first. but it would not take long for people to realize that to go out and be themselves is all that is necessary. sitting on your butt while everyone else is out there living gets old really fast and doesnt lead to many friendships or accomplishments.
the other key to nomoney's success is the internet and the ability to communicate it facilitates. via internet comm's, humans will be able to establish a system to evenly distribute and request goods and be able to solicit services world wide for the wide world.
im tired. is this sort of drawing a fantastic, but sensible picture at all?

The idea of no money is interesting, but debt is the main thing that will prevent this from happening. How much is the USA in debt? $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion) and growing! I guess the country could sell off Alaska, and Gwam to pay it back. But the regular joes who work hard and pay income taxes are just feeding a pig that can't seem to get enough slop. The working men and women are struggiling to survive off the little pay the do get, and if it was fair, The government would pay the hardworkers, and give the slackers what they deserve. (disabled would not be included as slackers, but as humans who would work if they could)

If there was no money, people who were lazy would get the same treatment as the hard workers. Not fair in my book! Lazy people can forget about getting any benifts that us hardworkers earn. Its an honest days work that makes us feel good when we put food on our family ( ) and if the lazy people want to get in on it, they can forget it!!

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo

If there was no money, people who were lazy would get the same treatment as the hard workers. Not fair in my book! Lazy people can forget about getting any benifts that us hardworkers earn. Its an honest days work that makes us feel good when we put food on our family (

) and if the lazy people want to get in on it, they can forget it!!

Exactly, as long as you're happy with your lot why should you care? Why does it drive you crazy that some one doesn't work? There are idlers in society as it presently is, I don't sit around and curse them. To each his own, let and let live, I say...

[edit on 3-12-2007 by Raoul Duke]

So if everyone was a lazy vegatable, what good would that do? Someone has to pick up the slack of the lazy people. Don't you think the hard workers should get paid more? If you want to be a lazy person, sit in a chair in front of a computer and t.v. and get fed by a tube and go to the bathroom right there in a device, and just live live a worthless glob of fat that can reproduce, be my guest, but when i get paid more money than you, i think you will despise me eating good food while you are eating crappy heath food that sustains life in a comatos state in a chair in front of a computer.
Back on thread topic, Money is what keeps us all in check. if we all were equal, there would be no one great power in anything. x scept for the government that controls everyone.

i think money is a great idea. the only evil thing is fractional reserve banking. that's the poop in the punchbowl.

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo
Don't you think the hard workers should get paid more? If you want to be a lazy person, sit in a chair in front of a computer and t.v. and get fed by a tube and go to the bathroom right there in a device, and just live live a worthless glob of fat that can reproduce, be my guest, but when i get paid more money than you, i think you will despise me eating good food while you are eating crappy heath food that sustains life in a comatos state in a chair in front of a computer.

wow, that was an entire rant, wrapped up into a single sentence. kudos. I would only ask, what incentive would people have to develop technology like computers and etc? Who would even invest to make a computer for people to use in the first place? it seems there is more emotion than logic in your reply.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by scientist]

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo
So if everyone was a lazy vegatable, what good would that do? Someone has to pick up the slack of the lazy people. Don't you think the hard workers should get paid more? If you want to be a lazy person, sit in a chair in front of a computer and t.v. and get fed by a tube and go to the bathroom right there in a device, and just live live a worthless glob of fat that can reproduce, be my guest, but when i get paid more money than you, i think you will despise me eating good food while you are eating crappy heath food that sustains life in a comatos state in a chair in front of a computer.
Back on thread topic, Money is what keeps us all in check. if we all were equal, there would be no one great power in anything. x scept for the government that controls everyone.

Well, I thought the thread was pro-the elimination of money (I guess anyone is free to argue for or against though). It doesn't seem like you're really for that... You actually made a pretty good argument, I just have the kind of personality I think were it wouldn't bother me if some one didn't work. I've often thought that in different types of utopian societies instead of like some nations having compulsory military service, there would need to be compulsory service in necessary jobs; say like agriculture. Everyone would have to spend a few years or more growing food, and then go back to their regular pursuits at other times...

Dont get me wrong, i hate the idea of money , i just wish times were more simpler, like the natave americans. Too be more in touch with the earth and nature, means more to me than money. If i could, i would live in a mud and straw hut, and hunt and fish to eat every meal.

didnt really read any of the above posts cuzz i gotta get off to class but incase it was covered somewhere above, my bad... but when i first saw this thread it made me think of the USSR, and china and cuba and north korea and vietnam and communism. as wonderful an idea it is, people just dont function without initiative. eliminating money and creating a completely equal state with everything provided for them inspires no purpose in a pereson, why would anyone work harder or at all knowing there is no where to progress? novel idea but this has just not been been proven in the past and i will die before i see this happen. money isnt important to me but to keep this world out orwellian 1984 is

Originally posted by MiRRoR_MuSiC
didnt really read any of the above posts cuzz i gotta get off to class but incase it was covered somewhere above, my bad... but when i first saw this thread it made me think of the USSR, and china and cuba and north korea and vietnam and communism. as wonderful an idea it is, people just dont function without initiative. eliminating money and creating a completely equal state with everything provided for them inspires no purpose in a pereson, why would anyone work harder or at all knowing there is no where to progress? novel idea but this has just not been been proven in the past and i will die before i see this happen. money isnt important to me but to keep this world out orwellian 1984 is

This is the first half intelligent post ive seen on this forum.

People seem to think they are so smart and they are the first to think of silly ideas like "no money societies." Its all been tried countless times throughout history and failed each and everytime.

Some of the posts here shouldnt even be dignified with a response since they absolutely reak of absolute ignorance of basic macroeconomics. Agruments like making compound interest illegal, central banks review interest rate levels on at least a monthly basis cause it is cornerstone of our fiat monetary system accordingly, how can you possibly make it illegal? Another poster seems to think supply and demand are both infinite and if it werent for money everyone could drive a Ferrari and have a 52inch tv. "People have roles and everything is provided" Okay you be the neurosurgeon and bust your ass in university for 15 years and ill be the librarian. We will of course both have the same standard of living. Ill also call in sick every other day cause why not?

I personally think that the mere thought of having a virtueous (sp) world, with no money is beautiful.

But it will take a few steps to get there. I believe that in this point in time Man's knowledge is exceeding Man's frame of mind. in essence "with great power comes great responsibility" definately comes into play. the current world we live in is just a projection(slightly morphed) from the world of the old. It's funny how we still hold on to things like materialism, ignorance, war, and fear of change. change is a constant of natures cycles, failing to change is failing the natural balance. Look at how human's interact with each other, look how people drive on the daily commute. Even after tens of thousands of years We Are ALL Still HUNTERS And Gatherers! Only Because we Refuse To Change, We Refuse Acceptance of Reality.

Money is just like Luggage we've held onto from stepping out of caves. Money is a basic conceptual system that only one step above most animals (actually some animals do horde certain objects to a materialistic importance, they just havn't learned to barter). Humanity with all it's knowledge and advancement just doesn't want to grow, to make that full step out of the animal kingdom. The technology, the know-how, It's all here.

When we were all little kids, we all had dreams, hopes, and imagination (abuse-free). The most loving part of humanity's youth is promise, progression. Promise for a better way of living, promise for a world, promise for a better&brighter Tomorrow. Money Is nothing short than an ancient curse, since the creation of small tribes Man as truely Never Ever been Free From Himself. And What Do we Do With Our Youth? We Use money to Cut down and strip away most of their dreams, we incorporate them into this faulty system and only give them knowledge that those higher up want them to know. So one day, maybe, just maybe they'll have a job that will make there country rival some other foriegn country coming out of the dark ages. Why? all in the name of Globalization.

Globalization is nothing short of elites coming to terms that they can't keep slaves forever. Globalization in itself is fueled by greed (money). Not that i protest the advancement of third/second-world countries, But the Point Is that it wouldn't be a problem If Humanity learned to become a Fully Sentient Species in the first place. Learning to Let Go is a part of that process. Learning To love, treating one another as brother than enemies with respect. Learning To Continue Our scientific evolution in harmony, and peace as Humanity seeks knowledge and wisdom of the universe.

This kill or be killed attitude will not cut it for the next step of humanity. this era of technology will be the cross-roads and turning point for humanity. this era will be the Last Generation of Hunting and Gathering. And when this era is gone, animalistic behavior and Money will die out along with it.

Then Humanity Can Step Out Of It's Craddle, The Universe, The Right Way

I think a society like this could work... with the right technology.

what we need is zero point energy and an army of robots to serve us. the robots do all of the boring repetitive jobs while humans would have the creative jobs that we enjoy doing. we'd just have to make sure the robots aren't programmed to be self aware so that we don't turn them into a slave race of sentient beings.

we could program robots that harvest/cook food, sew clothing, build shelter, etc. etc. Then any one human wouldn't be required to 'work' since they'd have all their basic needs taken care of.

that's my idea of a utopia anyway.