"Society needs Oil"How very quaint and simplistic.

May I ask which society?

Are you trying to tell us that invading Iraq to gain its oil deposits is a good thing because it will help the American economy?

What a very poor argument.One ,incidently,that many respected American posters here have been at pains to avoid.

The knee-jerk reaction of the conspiracy conditioned mind never ceases to amaze me. You don't realize you've become trained to apply "this must be a conspiracy!" thinking to every political subject, just as the general public has been conditioned to believe everything they hear on the news.

Bout Time...

Oil is the only viable alternative to our current industrial needs (both energy and manufacturing). There is a long established industrial infrastructure that you mistake for aged families of the British Empire. This infrastructure relies on certain natural resources. While we might find solace from electric cars, the infrastructure to manufacture those cars relies on oil (not to mention the plastic materials inside the car). Not until the massive natural resource infrastructure is advanced will alternative energies pose a viable alternative. For now, the cost of change is prohibitive.

If money was to be made making change, you would find your ancient families planning grand and massive alterations to our energy infrastructure.


Lupe...

Morality is hardly an issue. Responsibility is the issue. Our government has a responsibility to ensure its population is able to be fed and kept warm. When responsibilities enter the picture, either personal or societal, morality and ethics will find back seats. It is our nature, it is the way we behave at this juncture of our evolution.

If we were to come out and say, "We want the oil," would that be any better for you?


Affirmative Reaction...

I believe we have information from one or more insiders of specific violations and it's just a matter of time.

it really is just that simple. Its the oil, we have a texas oil billionaire for a prez and he see's the potential for more serious cash to line his families (daddys) pockets.

You can't over emphasize the fact that we have a simplistic man (or simpleton?) as a prez and his thought processes are not so refined to expect deep thought on any subject outside of chili-cook-offs and choking on tortilla chips.

The Bush crime family see's a golden opportunity to prolong their oil monopoly by taking control of a sizable reserve and a vast untapped crude field ripe for the picking, right there in Iraq. And once the conquest is made and a puppet installed, you've got a stronghold to use as a base of operations for future conquests over nieghboring Iran, and creating even more leverage over the Saudis to control OPEC and price per barrel index costs.

Whats a little war when profits can be made?

(Gives Winston Smith a standing ovation)

I could not agree with you more. All these people who bash Bush are simply P.O.'d that he was elected, inspite of the attempted fraud perpetrated by the various election boards. As for the oil, I wonder how many people would be suprised to learn that we, the United States, only get 18 percent of our oil from the middle east? Japan is the worlds leading consumer of Middle eastern oil. The vast majority of the oil we use here comes from Venezuela, Mexico, Alaska, and the Gulf of Mexico. You see, it's not as simple as "The USA want's to steal your oil". That isn't the case at all. And the "Bush crime family", as USMC Harrier puts it, wouldn't take control of anything in the event of was with Iraq.

WS, I agree totally about the HUMINT, as I said before. I believe it will all come out in the wash...

Has it occured to anybody that "dossier" might not be truthful to start with?

I doubt Saddam is going to annouce his WMD plan to the world.

But of course it makes more sense to jump on the U.S. and say we are changing it.

AF, don't feel left out in the cold. Me and Lupe go way back. lol. Ain't that right LUPUS? It's all in good fun here though. It's a constant struggle to offend as much as possible yet remain civil.

And actually, I don't think it's even 18% - I thought it was 12%. And Canada is up there as a provider also. I am confused: The same people that actually think this Iraq issue is solely about oil are the ones that aren't letting anyone drill oil in a tiny bit of Alaska. Oil is fungible - there's going to be oil for a long time and there's always going to be someone willing to sell it to us. Even when Iraq stopped selling oil a year or so back they changed their mind - what, after a week? Then began to sell it again. And in the grand scheme of things perhaps it is better that the US that controls the oil in Iraq - better than China. We all remember when China went into Siberia to loot their oil and gold. What a mess that was - oh, wait - that was Clancy.

Right on Nyeff.

Seems some people would take Saddamís word for it and any evidence that he does have WMD's (such as past inspectors accounts) is just propaganda on the part of the US. I don't always trust our government. (If anything, I think they're incompetent ñ and people expect too much out of them - thatís a different debate) However, why people would trust Saddam to tell the truth is beyond me ñ they must not be old enough to remember the Gulf War.

Bob,Unusually this time it is people who are defending Americas' right to attack that are claiming that it is about oil.1 or 2 months after us "liberals" suggested it.Just goes to show you never can tell.

and our 'liberals' called for an Iraqi regime change years before we 'conservatives' suggested it.

JB - you're not a tory?

A Tory!!!!!

I seem to remember them from our history classes at school.Were they like the Ludites.

Bob,
Yes, he and I have had several heated discussions here. My problem is not with his opinions, it's with the fact that he presents them as fact. He never has any information to back them up! He expects us to just believe him blindly because he"says it's so". When you point out the falicy of his posts, or the lack of proof, he resorts to personal attacks and misdirection to try to discredit you. Very juvenile. Unforunatly, my sense of humor does me in some times, and what I think is a funny retort to one of his slashes gets me slapped by someone who has no idea what has transpired in the past.

As far as the oil thing goes, I have also heard as much as 20 percent, but 18 is what most of my sources, such as my stock broker and www.oil.com, say. But I would not doubt your numbers. Of course, since they are backed by fact, those here who shall remain un-named will totally ignore them and continue to be led by the nose by those who feel the need to bash the President for anything they can...shameful...

Well well, isn't THIS an interesting development! Hans Blix was just on the news. Seems the USA was given the Iraq documents with the blessing of the security council, and, with the permission of the security council, made full and complete copies for the other 4 permanent members of the council. Now, Blix and his people are going through the documents, and THEY are removoving the materials THEY consider too sensitive to release to the full council! Hmmm...sorta blows the previous "US is doctoring the documents" posts out of the water, eh???

LIES!!!! It's all American propaganda!!! I won't believe it until I see a statement signed in Kofi Annans blood!!!!

And then I want it brought to trial in a world court of only Arab nations and, and, and,

ahh never mind, I guess it's hard to be Lupe

lol Fry! piss on Kofi! I want Butros Butros - he'd straighten this mess out.

Lupe is clearly against a war w/ Iraq. It's much easier to leave a tyrant and his regime in power allowing them to starve their own citizens while oppressing Kurds and Shiites w/ chemical weapons, murdering the slightest bit of political opposition, disallowing the most basic rights and freedoms to the people. Allowing Iraq to break 16 UN resolutions doesn't matter much either. Oh, lets not mind them shooting at allied aircraft because while the UN passed a resolution calling for protection for the Kurds - the UN wanted to be P.C. and not specifically ask for a no fly zone. Sitting back and turning a blind eye to Saddam and his thugs is what some call the ëtaking moral high ground.í I personally see America with all her power and might as being weak if we canít stop such tyrants as Saddam ñ havenít we learned anything from the Hitlers, Stalins, and Maos of the world?

A-R,Are we entitled to a link from a reputable media outlet or are we to accept what you are saying as fact.

PS,I do not suffer from Lupes' short term memory loss.Where you been recently A-R?

Originally posted by Bob88
lol Fry! piss on Kofi! I want Butros Butros - he'd straighten this mess out.

Lupe is clearly against a war w/ Iraq. It's much easier to leave a tyrant and his regime in power allowing them to starve their own citizens while oppressing Kurds and Shiites w/ chemical weapons, murdering the slightest bit of political opposition, disallowing the most basic rights and freedoms to the people. Allowing Iraq to break 16 UN resolutions doesn't matter much either. Oh, lets not mind them shooting at allied aircraft because while the UN passed a resolution calling for protection for the Kurds - the UN wanted to be P.C. and not specifically ask for a no fly zone. Sitting back and turning a blind eye to Saddam and his thugs is what some call the ëtaking moral high ground.í I personally see America with all her power and might as being weak if we canít stop such tyrants as Saddam ñ havenít we learned anything from the Hitlers, Stalins, and Maos of the world?

Lot's of red blooded Yankee vets opposed to this farce of a hostile corporate take over marketed as a war, Bob, not just them Brits!
These tired talking points you keep dragging out.....do you guys ever comparatively quantify the things you take up opposition to, in order to make sure your 'house is clean', in other words?
Starving Iraqi Children - and the blockade has contributed how much towards that?
Kurds & Chem Weapons - You want to bring up what WE did back in the 70's & 80's with chemical warfare through proxy states? Iraq included? Giving them the stuff then turning a blind eye when they used it kind of knocks us off the moral hill in that whole Kurd argument, no?
Rights & Crushing Dissent - What is your Arab shining beacon of Yankee Democratic values, Saudi Arabia!?!
Breaking UN Resolutions - I think they have a couple of 'gimmes' before they catch up to Israel, no? When are we bombing them?
Shooting at Planes - That no fly zones has creeped up to sorties between the 33rd & 36th parallels, and it includes knocking out communications.....again, that whole thing of a sovereign nation AND responding to when someone brings a war to your front door is completely lost on you people!?! I don't think any pilot wearing an American flag patch on his uniform would be allowed back in the country if he actually got hit with that outdated crap they're firing at us...his CO would probably give him to the French!
Hitler Comparison - Saadam hasn't conquered anyone, doesn't have an industrialized country/economy on relevantly par with 1945 Germany, and uses religion as a mass herd control mechanism far less than Hitler did - nope, no biggy here except the equivalent of a big mouth street thug boss.

Winston - no mistake, they of course have grown, but are still in the mix at every major global energy concern. that we are not privy to all, does not mean the changes are not in motion; look up the Science forums for that very topic. Shell is very much involved publicly with the Icelandic initiatives for applied hydrogen energy.
Given a 50 year time window of oil at current levels, not thinking that evolving to alternate energies is already being tested is naive. That leaves us with the case as it is: maximizing and extracting every iota of profit to be had from the already established infrastructure.
Thus, the acceleration of wars in South America and the Middle East are simply a quid pro quo between a pliant government and the industry where their fortunes exist.

Affirmative Reaction - no flame shame here, just hoping to see more substantive posts.....a couple of Cosmic Forum denizens already got the Rabid Right Wing/Angry white Man market covered!

...and hows about dem North Koreans?
Active Nukes and 40,000 of our military in the firing line and we're going to war with.....Iraq?

wow.
what a lot of flag waving.
must be a parade.

"Yes, he and I have had several heated discussions here. My problem is not with his opinions, it's with the fact that he presents them as fact. He never has any information to back them up! He expects us to just believe him blindly because he"says it's so". When you point out the falicy of his posts, or the lack of proof, he resorts to personal attacks and misdirection to try to discredit you. Very juvenile. Unforunatly, my sense of humor does me in some times, and what I think is a funny retort to one of his slashes gets me slapped by someone who has no idea what has transpired in the past. "


...actually I think you just have an unhealthy obsession with me.

JB, unfortunatly, I do not have a link yet, as I saw a live interview on the news. But I will do my best to find one for you. Where I have been is on a long overdue and much needed vacation. Gotta love those cruise ships. And none of us came down with the Norwalk virus! However, some of us came down with a self-induced form of the disorder, if you catch my drift.