why does america the most open society in the world never get the benifit of the doubt?

Originally posted by rockets red glare
reply to post by TheGreySwordsman

 

who are you to push your morality on others.

I think you answered your own question fairly succinctly there.

I go back to 1984 when we (New Zealand) refused to allow nuclear ships into our ports. Boy, were we bullied then, but we stood up to them and we still do,in this matter (it's a shame we don't stand up against echelon etc).


New Zealand to 'rule' the world, in my opinion. Show the path of peace and discourse, instead of gungho 'let's blow their heads off, and then talk' attitudes lol

reply to post by Astyanax



Asty,

I think I like you. You're a cerebral one. Kind of like those Tibetan Monks philosiphising and pondering away up in the Himalayas. Aren't they freezing with just those robes on?

OK here we go....

May I ask you who voted the United States the leader of the world? I've been old enough to vote since 1976 and I don't recall ever having cast a ballot in that election.

Great question and I think the answer is nobody. It was an act of necessity. It began militarily in WW1 and by the sheer magnificance of American ingenuity kind of fell into place from there.

I think much of this rise to leadership was brought about for many reasons. We began leaping beyond the rest of the world technologically and by virtue of these discoveries America was seen as the natural leader. It aslo does not hurt when you show the capacity and compassion to begin FEEDING the world as well.

Hark, He Who Speaks for the Leader of the World speaketh! Cease thy babble and listen, morons and foreigners!

No now be nice. Just to a select few who can't see the world without this leadership. Ponder that for a moment cerebral one. What would the world be like without an America. You may say better but I will stand by much worse.

You seem like a nice feller' and I enjoy your thought provoking posts.

Becker

Originally posted by AotearoaSon
New Zealand to 'rule' the world, in my opinion. Show the path of peace and discourse, instead of gungho 'let's blow their heads off, and then talk' attitudes lol

That's right. NZ stands up to anyone and everyone. And you're welcome for the security umbrella that lets little countries such as NZ get to stand up and shout about how tough, etc. they are (because deep inside they know the U.S. is there to keep anyone from doing anything about your shouting). Hmmm, what if Indonesia decided one day they could put your little islands to better use than you can? Think someone there hasn't already decided you'd all be better off as part of the muslim world? You going to stop them all by yourselves? No, you'll be begging the U.S. to spend resources and spill our blood to save your ungrateful little .....

So, go for it NZ, if you really feel you have all that it takes. Lead the world. Pour out your money and resources for those in need. Spill your own blood to try and protect those that can't protect themselves.

No, seriously, take your best shot - and then wait for the first time one of your "enlightened" decisions isn't appreciated by either the "good" or the "nasty" countries out there.

How long would it take after that before little kids were asking their parents or teachers, "What's a New Zealand?"

[edit on 11/20/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by TheGreySwordsman

#1 We get involved in international affairs without being asked to be involved.

Haven't seen anyone point out the real reason for this and you won't like it, but here goes: The U.S. gets involved in international affairs in attempt to solve the problem there - before you all manage to export the problem back to the U.S.

#2 We are percieved as a bunch of trigger-happy cowboys.(I was surprised to learn this from my European friends)

This one always makes me laugh But these same Europeans just can't get enough western genre movies and TV shows from the U.S. Plus, I live in the west and participate in a "living legends" program where we dress in ca. 1875 clothes and do demontrations and provide history for tourists. Care to guess which tourists want to hear about and see the staged shoot-outs, etc. the most? Awww, you knew I was going to say the European tourists. Myth busted ...

#3 We regularly tell everyone that WE ARE THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD

.

But in may ways we are. Didn't say every way, but many ways. Probably more than not. To argue otherwise IMO is something akin to "penis envy". Still, it doesn't mean it has to be rubbed in every other country's face.

#4 We generally do not develop a good understanding of the culture of countries we are dealing with. Often leading to trouble. ie, look at Iraq. How many lives were lost, how many people were endangered, because we didn't realized to sunni and the shii'a did not like each other. There were definately smarter ways to go about it.

This one is soooo off base. Seems to me that the U.S. is always bending over backward to accept and not offend foreign cultures - often at the expense of our own. Truth is that it is other countries that do not reciprocate.

#5 The general ignorance Americans have about other cultures

If there is any truth in this and there may be some, you have to consider the sheer size and scope of the U.S. compared to many other countries. So much to see, understand and do right here, before looking across the borders or oceans. BTW, anyone knocking, say, the chinese for doing much the same in their country?

I could go on, and on, but hopefully, you get the idea.

[edit on 11/20/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211

That's right. NZ stands up to anyone and everyone. And you're welcome for the security umbrella that lets little countries such as NZ get to stand up and shout about how tough, etc. they are (because deep inside they know the U.S. is there to keep anyone from doing anything about your shouting).

I'm sorry my sarcasm was lost on you. Did you see the laughing icon,or did the blood go straight to your head and fill up behind your eyes so all you could see was your rage?

Hmmm, what if Indonesia decided one day they could put your little islands to better use than you can? Think someone there hasn't already decided you'd all be better off as part of the muslim world? You going to stop them all by yourselves? No,

you'll be begging the U.S. to spend resources and spill our blood to save your ungrateful little .....

So we have little islands that may be of use to others,that's cool, it's good to help. I have met a few Indonesians and generally they are more polite and less brash than the U.S.Aers that I have met.
What the problem with being a Muslim?
Ungrateful little...? It's attitudes like that that don't do anything to help build bridges.

Personally I am more worried by the foreign investment here by such as the Rothschilds and Rockefellers...lovely families who have promoted peace and equality (that is 'tongue in cheek', sorry to have to spell it out to you,you arrogant little...)

reply to post by AotearoaSon


I saw your LOL symbol. Didn't you see my "duh" symbol?

FYI - I used Indonesia as a rhetorical example of a nearby (to NZ) country with a fast growing population and need for resources that might consider itself in need of a little more from your islands than just NZ's "help". Plus, there's that need to convert or exterminate the infidels thing. (there it is again)

[edit on 11/20/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211


FYI - I used Indonesia as a rhetorical example of a nearby (to NZ) country with a fast growing population and need for resources that might consider itself in need of a little more from your islands than just NZ's "help". Plus, there's that need to convert or exterminate the infidels thing.

(there it is again)

[edit on 11/20/2007 by centurion1211]

We actually have quite a good relationship with Indonesia...a little tense,but not on any sort of 'invasion' level.
Plus, there's that need to 'christianise' the poor heathens and unbelievers

I don't hate America,it hasdone some good things,but at the moment it seems like a rapacious,greedy, self-centred, arrogant country (alright, administration).

reply to post by AotearoaSon


I don't hate America but am extremely angry over many of our policies (and most of our propaganda). From where I sit, I see a great deal of greed in America. And saying that, I know that Rockets will bitch-slap me like he did yesterday on a different post when I said that America was a greedy nation.

To Rockets: let me be the first to say that I am NOT "liberal", not Pro-Bush, and do not "hate" everything-government. Like so many other people, I detest watching our Republic morph into a monster that is paid for by the majority of taxpayers with the benes going to an elitist few.

I would LOVE to see some substantiation on a few of your statements, though. I'm trying to figure out how you have drawn these conclusions. Reading garbage like this makes me embarassed to know it was generated by a fellow-American.

Rockets wrote:
One thing I am certain of WITHOUT AMERICA IN IT, THE WORLD WOULD NOT BE A BETTER PLACE!!

Rockets also said:
You did not bother to mention what our motivations are when we decide what nations policies we suport or not! free expresson, free press, human rights... our motivations are clear.

Rockets also stated:
our economy is in great shape, the envy of the world in fact! thx for asking! our economy props up all the other large economies of the world who have based their economies on exports to us! thats a very dangerous position for them don't you think! because if we were to close our wallets, your economies would crumble where as our economy is much more self sufficient !

reply to post by AotearoaSon


"rhetorical example" - as in a ficticious situation stated to try and show the meaning of a concept in a way that might be more understandable to a reader that appeared to have hard time understanding the original concept.

I'm not saying that Indonesia is (currently anyway) planning to attack NZ. But I am asking you to think about what if they did? How would you feel about U.S. strength then? Would you call for help and hope for salvation through U.S. intervention?

I think the answer would be, "YES, please come save us NOW!"

And I also think that after things calmed down NZ would go back to pretending that they could live in peace in a nasty world all on their own.

I'll add to that IMO the rest of the free world would act in pretty much that same way.



[edit on 11/20/2007 by centurion1211]

reply to post by centurion1211


Yes,I got the rhetoric...we have a quality school system here



I'm uncertain as to our response given such a situation, but I am almost certain that U.S.A. (please, it's not America, it's part of America) would probably be involved, just as Australia would (a far more likely target IMO) and probably other members of ASEAN.

But,just realise that we MAY not ask for your help because we have woken up and seen the 'evil empire' for what it is: a self-serving ,tyrannical, greedy, deceitful USER...

but again,that is my opinion, and yours is yours.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by AotearoaSon]

Oh, and read 'Ape and Essence' by Alduous Huxley,if you haven't already.
It's really very good

[edit on 20-11-2007 by AotearoaSon]

The headline for this thread has absolutely no basis in reality which is why I did not even bother to read the rest of it.

America is not even in the top 10 of the most open societies!

Originally posted by AotearoaSon

Originally posted by rockets red glare
reply to post by TheGreySwordsman

 

who are you to push your morality on others.

Morality is like "standards" and standards are like pants- they are meant to be lowered!

Originally posted by Kacen
When we first began, we were unique, but now there are plenty of other democracies. Canada and all of Europe save Belarus are free democracies.

America was unique? Are you kidding me?

The Americas had democracy loooong before Europeans came here. In fact your democracy was learned from the indigenous peoples of North America who started democracy between 1000-1450. Democracy came from Ancient Greece but also has its origins in North & South America, South Asia, Ancient Rome, Europe. Sry but democracy was not invented by the US and was far from unique in the world when they perverted it's use.

The USA might be unique in the way it took grass roots democracy and turned it into a method to control the thoughts and actions of it's population...

'Give the peasants two parties of our choosing, under our control, so no matter who they vote for we win'...That's American democracy!

Democracy does not automatically equal freedom...

The most free and open country right now I'd say is Norway. Certainly not perfect but they are getting there...

www.powertech.no...

[edit on 20/11/2007 by ANOK]

reply to post by Zoltan


I didn't bitch slap you, SMACK I calls um as I sees um CRASH. Saying we are greedier than others was below the belt Boom. Nothing could be further from the truth bang. We are born into our culture just as you are born in your STOMP. So we have a higher % of private ownership of autos, big deal. As I stated if giving a car no one that doesn't have one would turn it down! Kick Other than that we heat and air condition our homes just the same as everyone else. We see a problem in the world we adress it just like everyone else. The world socialist media and communist propaganda mills and all the state run tv stations of dictators working overtime on tearing down The United States doesn't work on me. I love this country and will continue too.

What makes me laugh is when people bring in patriotism to the 'world hates America' argument.

The world doesn't hate America, it hates the decisions the leaders of America make, and to a lesser extent, the 'we are the best country in the world' attitude of many of the American people.

Patriotism isn't blind support for your government, regardless of their actions. Patriotism is standing up for what your nation is built on and believes in. America was built to be a democratic, free and diverse nation.

Allowing your rights to be stripped from you, supporting invading other nations without officially declaring war and believing whatever your controlled media tells you is not Patriotism; it is idiocy.

Be true Patriots and defend your constitution, defend your rights and defend the rights of other nations.

Originally posted by fooffstarr
What makes me laugh is when people bring in patriotism to the 'world hates America' argument.

The world doesn't hate America, it hates the decisions the leaders of America make, and to a lesser extent, the 'we are the best country in the world' attitude of many of the American people.

Patriotism isn't blind support for your government, regardless of their actions. Patriotism is standing up for what your nation is built on and believes in. America was built to be a democratic, free and diverse nation.

Allowing your rights to be stripped from you, supporting invading other nations without officially declaring war and believing whatever your controlled media tells you is not Patriotism; it is idiocy.

Be true Patriots and defend your constitution, defend your rights and defend the rights of other nations.

well said and that is why the ron paul revolution has such support, especially the boost it has gotten recently w/ many prominent investment "hard money" gurus endorsing and donating to his campaign, like richard russell, and peter schiff to name a couple.

as far as defending the rights of other nation's, that is difficult to do, we MUST first take care of the cancer growing inside our own gov't before we can sure any other nation up.

and a good way to do this is to kill the source of this cancer, which is the deep debt we are in as a country, which makes us kiss ass to country's financing our debt (so we can pay just the stinkin intrest). The source of the cancer or (debt) = The Federal Reserve takes the biggest piece of the pie.

It has been abolished and declared unconstitutional twice in our nation's history ( 19'th century) it's time we do it again. Only problem is what will be left of our currency and our purchasing power by the time any one like Paul could get in office (assuming he pulls off an upset, and them manages to stay alive), which IMO are slim and none. BUT if enough people become aware of this Unncecessary and manipulative, deceptive PRIVATE bank, they will be stopped!

The mass emails sent our by people like (shiff) to 60,000 of his wealthy clients are getting the word around to some big wigs, that this is serious and not just a "conspiracy" issue. They will raise 10,000,000 million for paul on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party. And other nations should pray the united states doesn't collapse, because although far from perfect (especially the degenerate neo-cons) america has helped keep some order in this crazy world.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by cpdaman]

reply to post by TheGreySwordsman


Being opposed to Pornography, Alcoholism, Vulgarity and Racism is a bad thing? That is what you just said. Do you realize that?

Pornography demeans Women and many suffer abuse in the industry not to mention those that prey on Juveniles.

Alcohol is the most dangerous drug known to man and kills countless people annually worldwide.

Vulgarity is used by people who lack the vocabulary to express themselves without resorting to crude language.

That radio jock made a racist comment on the air. His words hurt people who were accomplishing great things in their life. He entertains people like himself who get pleasure by demeaning others. How sad.

I am not going to debate this issue this much being from the USA. Simply put, there are a lot of immature attitudes already floating around in this World. In other words, you have no idea what the USA Government is doing. It is in fact and always telling the USA people that they do not Act correctly. Then other people in other Nations assume because you actually do not hear about it that much in the News and do not really do the research either that deeply to know much. You in other words assume. If you had any idea what the Government of this Country called the USA is really doing -- despite some questionable things it does in this Country -- you really would start Applauding what this Government of the USA is really doing. Distortions and self-rightousness is not going to convince the people who do really know, and despite the fact that some things are questionable as to how it Defends this Country -- this Country is not a Democracy in the first place. If people of this Country want to go around being selfish and demeaning, then why do you think this Government is involved in that. Yes it will use the money, but if the people of this Country were not doing what they really are doing, then the Government of this Country would have to LIVE with it. Until people of this Country start Acting better, then why blame this Government. That -- that is not what this Country was founded on, so in the Government it trys to keep things balanced. But when people who run for political parties start inferring that they are more Rightous then some others then that is still the problem. The problem is that these type of people are still Elected here, and then real people would have to ask Why? Simply put they could do a lot of things, but in the end -- even in the Armed Forces -- if you do not like the decision made - you can refer not to do it. Of course, many people do not want to actually go through the procedure of demanding that those doing that change their ways, but in the end, if the battle is endured, then they have to.

Now, of course it will not happen, but in the end, they have to adjust or face ruin. This Goverment has to, it has too many people already questioning what it is doing. Let's not live in a fog of this Promised Glory that one person offers like in other Nations. It usually does not work, and if history is really looked at, it never has.

Distortions in this thread will not help actually convince anyone who really knows, that it is usually that person's hatred and simply silly views that other person from another Nation holds.

OPEC is not using oil as an excuse to be a dictator in this world, like someone named Chavez would. Standing up for falsehoods is what people like Chavez are really doing. A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf. Okay, this Government may get a little carried away from Threats, but still that is what it will do. Make no mistake that other Nations' distortions do not affect this Government in this USA.

reply to post by AotearoaSon


AotearoaSon, As an American that has lived in New Zealand for 3 years now, I can without hesitation say, you have no idea what you are talking about.

1. Education - "Yes,I got the rhetoric...we have a quality school system here"...no you don't, I have two teens in school here in Christchurch, I would compare the school system here to Oklahoma or Louisiana (sub par)...sorry to anyone from those states, but you understand what I mean.

2. To your thoughts about your friendly neighbors...Learn Mandarin, you'll need it within the next 30-40 years or so, and before you sputter out an answer, for reference look at the 2005 census...the demographers predict the chinese will outnumber Pakeha and Maori by 2050.

3. Your decision to not allow nukes into the country, either by visiting craft or as a power policy. Great, I applaud the stance if thats how the people of NZ feel, but to throw it around as a "we stood up to Goliath", could not be further from the truth. Who do you think would come to your aide first?...maybe you should ask Mr. Winston Peters, he knows...

4. Your concern about foreign investment is well placed, but aimed in the wrong direction...once again back to China, and also Aussie...between the two, by mid century both will have carved up NZ...you lose thousand of young people to Aussie every year, and for investment, China ownes large sectors of NZ business already.

so before you start slamming my home country, take a more honest look at your own first.

my2cents

edit for poor American spelling, oh the horror!


[edit on 20-11-2007 by deadbang]

The biggest obstacle to world peace the American people are facing and indeed the entire world is facing is coming from America.
Fidel Castro was absolutly right when he said that America is carrying within itself the seeds to its own destruction.
Most of you have never been without running water, electricity and something to eat and until you feel the same pain your putting other speople through you will never know how it feels.
You watch 30 minutes of Cooperate News every evening and think you have a firm grasp on things. And as long as you can stuff our fat faces while watching our precious TELEVISION you will continue to be totally ingnorant of what you are really doing to others.
If Iraq was pumping carrots out of the ground instead of oil you would have nothing to do with that country what so ever.
So go stuff your faces and turn on your precious TELEVISIONS and just tell yourself over and over again what a great country to live in. I'm on my way to convert my money into EUROS.