Hell does not exist - like we hear it will be

I need to start this thread because i can see another going WAYYYYYY off topic if the current post content is an indicator.

OK, to begin, let me say - I am a Catholic - whoaaaaaaa... K, got that out the way. So just because i am a Catholic doesn't mean I have to take the bible literally - and neither should anyone. There may be literal passages but much is simply a message being conveyed in ways that helped others, 2 thousand years ago+ (not minus) ie

No worries, it's the other way around: because you are a Catholic I don't expect you to take the Bible literaly.

To answer your question: yes, I do take Mark 9 literaly.

The reason why that sounds "nuts" to you is because you are not obeying the following command (like I didn't for years)


2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

to understand the Bible, you must learn to divide it.
The context of Mark 9 belongs to the Millennium age, when the Lord Jesus Christ has returned and is reigning for 1000 years on earth.
Then salvation will not be by faith alone, like it is now.
Why? Because he will be right there in the flesh in front of people.
So a guy can't just walk up and say "I believe in you"
He will have to work...and since salvation in the millennium will involve works, then you had better, and literaly, cut take out your eye if it's causing you to lust and commit adultery.

But during this age, salvation is by faith alone, without any works.

So when you study and rightly divide the Bible, it all fits like a gloriously wise puzzle.

Spiritualizing the words of God is just another way of denying them.




[edit on 15-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

So I am in Hell, as I have 'freely and definitively separate [myself] from God'. Huh. It's not that bad. Perhaps someone could join me?

But then again, if God is the source of all joy, and I do not believe in him, yet I am happy and joyous right now, then John Paul II is wrong. Which could mean there is a Hell in the traditional sense. Hmm, good news or bad news for me?

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Spiritualizing the words of God is just another way of denying them.

I think you need a genuine spirituality in yourself to care about others and the planet. Its not about religion at all really.

If God thinks someone who cares about people, animals and the planet deserves to die and go to Hell because they question the Bible, well, thats pretty messed up.



[edit on 15-11-2007 by Copernicus]

Originally posted by watch_the_rocks
So I am in Hell, as I have 'freely and definitively separate [myself] from God'. Huh. It's not that bad. Perhaps someone could join me?

Possibly. I am sure many are with you. But again, it is not a hell being a burning lake of fire. You will be separated from God but that doesn't mean you will burn. It is typically after you die but again, you could be in a "hell like" state on earth.

Who knows - only you

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
No worries, it's the other way around: because you are a Catholic I don't expect you to take the Bible literaly.

Some Catholics do in fact. Some don't. It was written the way it is so that people MANY years ago could understand metaphorically.

To answer your question: yes, I do take Mark 9 literaly.
...you are not obeying the following command (like I didn't for years)

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But during this age, salvation is by faith alone, without any works.

Keep in mind that the bible is progressive. One must understand the Old Testament to move on to the New Testament. Now dividing and studying the bible is not enough! Information is not enough. What do you think you will gain from the bible and studying it? I will leave that there for this post.

Salvation by Faith alone? Not a chance!

Let us do evil that good may come...
Paul here reduced the arguments of Jewish objectors to an absurdity, as it might be paraphrased, "If your method of judging is correct, then why not do evil to procure the good that would come of it?"

Whose condemnation is just ...
was Paul's way of saying that any such notion was absolutely incorrect and sinful, and justly condemned by God.

Hope that made sense? Basically it opens doors to someone want to do evil and they think they will still be saved because they have faith. So how can one just automatically expect to be saved by grace and sit back and do NO good? Nope - it doesn't work that way unfortunately. Many may tell themselves it does because that is the easy way out.

So when you study and rightly divide the Bible, it all fits like a gloriously wise puzzle.

How far have you gotten? What do you think the puzzle with reveal? What will the "Revelation" be? Or rather, what do you expect it to be?

Spiritualizing the words of God is just another way of denying them.

Can you clarify what you mean by that? Perhaps you can embellish?

reply to post by shearder


Hi Shearherder,

If you do some research on the Hebrew/Greek translations of the word hell, I think you will be plesantly surprised.
It actually refers to a hole in the ground or grave; it really is that simple, it is just over the last few years certain being/persons have twisted it to mean something else, perhaps we see one of the earlier forms of populace control with the fear factor; either way hell is nothing more than a myth.

Peace.

Shearder..normally I avoid religious topics like the plague.However I felt the need to contribute here, because your post title is so correct IMHO.
To start..I do not believe in god, jesus, heaven or hell.There that is out of the way.I Never, ever judge people who do believe.Freedom of choice.I feel no need to bash anyone.Period.
I grew up going to church, Sunday school, blah blah blah...
dabbled in the occult in my teen years..read a lot of stuff..including the bible which is the most widely interpreted book ever.
That being said..My conclusion is this..
The heaven or hell that will be experienced by each of us when we leave this physical body, is the one we create for ourselves with our thoughts, actions and beliefs.
The idea of a hell being a physical place where souls are tortured with physical pain is IMHO, ridiculous.The spirit, detached from the body would not "burn" in flames.However perhaps if a persons thoughts and beliefs led them to believe they deserved an afterlife as such...I believe they would experience it.
The greatest power..is thought.In this life..and after.
Just my 2 cents.

reply to post by shearder


This is what most psychic mediums say, I think even people like Hitler are rehabilitated in the afterlife.

Originally posted by shearder
So my point? I don't believe in hell being a everlasting see of fire that mortal sinners will have to endure. I am not going to go into detail because i would like to first get other's opinions and then we can discuss it like civilized people

To start i would like to offer something Pope John Paul II said:

As Pope John Paul II reflected: “The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”

[edit on 15/11/2007 by shearder]

I like the quote from the pope...not far off.
And as far as those classical Christians (modern, fundamental, evangelical, Christians who believe they have the monopoly of understanding the word of God - despite the non-consensus as to who gets to heaven. i.e.,

1: once saved always saved (baptist)
2: loose your salvation and pick it up again...oops, I lost it again... (pentecostal)
3: predestined: "I was predestined to be a missionary as you were predestined to hear my message, and the dude over there is predestined to hell. (presbyterian.)

So now that I got past the base point to shake off (or get thinking) those who tend to believe they have it all right...lets get back to the point at hand.

There is something similar said by an orthodox priest, in an article called "the river of fire" His take on hell is quite unique (from a classical christian perspective) and lines up more with what your Pope quote said.

I would find it interesting, and quite arrogant that those 'classical christians' would so readily do away with tradition that went back more than 2000 years.

Judaism also has a belief similar to that of the Catholics purgatory...but of course those from the many splintered, & divided churches which off shooted from Luther, have created their own version of keeping people in line... Fiery hell forever.

I will say, that there is an even more sad reality. The majority of people are living in hell now. Not because of the circumstances around them, or happening to them...but its the one that their own mind creates. People are having a quantum collapse (brain fart) of the mind. They take and identify to closely with their thoughts and take that as their identity. Therefore become so rigid and stiff that no light can escape and 'shine' as they say they wish to shine for the world.

You get get into a nice long philosophical state of mind about the consequences of their being eternal punishment. I have actually blogged about this recently. The dangers of Heaven.

Of course, one would have to have an open mind as a Christian, and truly seek with all their heart if they are to find. And the original poster seems to be doing so, but there are always those who want to steer someone back to the straight and narrow through 'guilt' & 'fear' based theology...all the while their ego being stroked with a sense of 'superiority.'

Ah, I do want to share an excerpt from the article I mentioned, by the Christian Orthodox Priest concerning hell. I think you might find it interesting indeed, as well as others here. And for the classical Christian, it may give them something to ponder. After all, its not easy being stuck in dogma. As frustrating as it may be for others to hear dogmatic views, its even harder for that person - as they have not yet been able to feel and live what it is that they preach concerning the love of God and joy.
- so they need our love most of all. And Love is acceptance of that person where they are at. (Again, the link above 'open mind' delves into this concept further.)

Without further ado..here is an excerpt from the article I mentioned:

Excerpt from: The River of Fire
By: Alexandre Kalomiros


God is a loving fire, and He is a loving fire for all: good or bad. There is, however, a great difference in the way people receive this loving fire of God. Saint Basil says that “the sword of fire was placed at the gate of paradise to guard the approach to the tree of life; it was terrible and burning toward infidels, but kindly accessible toward the faithful, bringing to them the light of day.” The same loving fire brings the day to those who respond to love with love, and burns those who respond to love with hatred.
Paradise and hell are one and the same River of God, a loving fire which embraces and covers all with the same beneficial will, without any difference or discrimination. The same vivifying water is life eternal for the faithful and death eternal for the infidels; for the first it is their element of life, for the second it is the instrument of their eternal suffocation; paradise for the one is hell for the other. Do not consider this strange. The son who loves his father will feel happy in his father’s arms, but if he does not love him, his father’s loving embrace will be a torment to him. This also is why when we love the man who hates us, it is likened to pouring lighted coals and hot embers on his head.
“I say,” writes Saint Isaac the Syrian, “that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love…. It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it” (Homily 84).
God is love. If we really believe this truth, we know that God never hates, never punishes, never takes vengeance. As Abba Ammonas says, “Love never hates anyone, never reproves anyone, never condemns anyone, never grieves anyone, never abhors anyone, neither faithful nor infidel nor stranger nor sinner nor fornicator, nor anyone impure, but instead it is precisely sinners, and weak and negligent souls that it loves more, and feels pain for them and grieves and laments, and it feels sympathy for the wicked and sinners, more than for the good, imitating Christ Who called sinners, and ate and drank with them. For this reason, showing what real love is, He taught saying, ‘Become good and merciful like your Father in Heaven,’ and as He rains on bad and good and makes the sun to rise on just and unjust alike, so also is the one who has real love, and has compassion, and prays for all.”

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!
Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred,” 47 saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures.
(NOTE: MY FAVORITE PART)
But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

Amen.

Hope you enjoyed.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 15-11-2007 by dAlen]

So a bunch of sinners who refuse God's judgment of their condition and character don't believe in a lake of fire and would rather quote any other authority before they believe the words of God....I'm shocked!

The nec plus ultra are the the people who believe in heaven but not hell...my my what bias.

OP,

you quoted Romans 3. I'm sorry but your interpretation is an incapacity to read English, let alone Biblical interpretation.

Because Paul was teaching (as commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ) that salvation is by faith apart from works, he was slanderously accused of teaching liberty to sin.
That's what you were quoting.
Half the book of Romans and the entire book of Galatians is dedicated to defend the doctrine of salvation by faith without works from its detractors...
That this is the correct view is made clear by the rest of his writings. He made his point clear over and over

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, (notice it is past and certain, not future and uncertain) by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Apparently you're pretty confident about your righteousness since you seem to be banking on your works. Congratulations, you're a better man than I.
Then again the standard is the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
But of course, you don't believe in hell so salvation is a moot point for you.



[edit on 15-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21

Apparently you're pretty confident about your righteousness since you seem to be banking on your works. Congratulations, you're a better man than I.
Then again the standard is the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
But of course, you don't believe in hell so salvation is a moot point for you.

This was JC's standard. He suggested judging people on their works, not words.

By the way, the Bible's not the word of God, have you seen the Zeitgeist movie?

Originally posted by WeAreOne
reply to post by shearder

 

Hi Shearherder,

If you do some research on the Hebrew/Greek translations of the word hell, I think you will be plesantly surprised.
It actually refers to a hole in the ground or grave; it really is that simple,

Oh no need to concern yourself about me doing research
You are hotter than you know with that statement.

Your loved ones are not suffering in hell or purgatory. They are asleep in the grave, unaware of the passage of time.

Remember in my post earlier i said i was holding back on some info so i could see what others' opinions were.

Originally posted by AccessDenied
Shearder..normally I avoid religious topics like the plague.However I felt the need to contribute here, because your post title is so correct IMHO.

Thanks AD I may also be totally wrong but i have my opinions

The heaven or hell that will be experienced by each of us when we leave this physical body, is the one we create for ourselves with our thoughts, actions and beliefs.

That is a very interesting way to think about what we will experience when we pass. I never really gave something like that much thought. I am not going to knock that argument/idea because my beliefs may be wrong.

The idea of a hell being a physical place where souls are tortured with physical pain is IMHO, ridiculous.

Now THAT i 100% agree with. I consider your beliefs when i say the following, though i know and respect that you do not believe in God and i do and it does NOT make me a better person because of it, what i do believe is that when we die, God is a merciful God and he would not let one of his children suffer in that sort of place. ALSO, he would have mercy on loved ones who would see their family members burning in "hell". Nope, he wouldn't put them through that. What kind of eternal life would they endure seeing or knowing their loved ones were in hell!!

...perhaps if a persons thoughts and beliefs led them to believe they deserved an afterlife as such...I believe they would experience it.
The greatest power..is thought.In this life..and after.

I do also believe in an afterlife OR re-incarnation. To me they are different. Afterlife - live in "Heaven".

Thanks for your post AD.

Originally posted by Raoul Duke
reply to post by shearder

 

This is what most psychic mediums say, I think even people like Hitler are rehabilitated in the afterlife.

Hmmmm... ok that is an interesting concept. Again, it is really so difficult to stay on topic at times hehehe, but, I don't believe in hell i believe we either get eternal life or we die. In dying i don't mean our body dies but our soul. That can be and is a long discussion not for this thread really but i guess it can be entertained.

Here is my take on hell. I am Agnostic...now that I got that out of the way.
If someone were to believe in God yet live somewhere in the wilderness, have never heard of Jesus and the person is doing all they can to be a good person why should God punish their actions because of the place they were born in?
I could understand if you get punished for killing an innocent child or stealing money from people but for not having heard of Jesus? Come on that is ridiculous!
I think there is no hell, only a heaven and if a bad person were to die their soul would vanish from existence, like a life of slumber if you will.

what is hell? its an architypal memory of the enslavement of man to work the underground mines and smelts of the Annunaki. After Creation, some humans were allowed to labour on the surface tending the gardens and dealing with the food of the gods .... adam, for example... others, who were "bad", were sent below the surface to work in the mines and smelt the precious metals... hense the fire and brimstone images and the prod of the pitch fork... afterall, who wants to work there! sounds like hell to me... mystery solved... next?

Originally posted by dAlen
I like the quote from the pope...not far off.

I found that profound coming from the Pope. I think it really supports why it was illegal to translate the bible etc because people would misinterpret what was written and go off the rails. I believe the Pope has made it quite clear and this supports the metaphorical messages in the bible.

And as far as those classical Christians (modern, fundamental, evangelical, Christians who believe they have the monopoly of understanding the word of God - despite the non-consensus as to who gets to heaven. i.e.

I have met some, and i have a friend in fact like this, who is so gungho and has stuff underlined in his bible and follows it to the T. Man, i respect his beliefs but i don't always agree with him so i steer clear of discussions because he is so totally fanatical that i fear he may kill me LMAO (joke)

I would find it interesting, and quite arrogant that those 'classical christians' would so readily do away with tradition that went back more than 2000 years.

The bible is progressive and one needs to look at the information and from the information become informed. But again, it is easy to misinterpret and accept teachings as literal and we need to be mindful of the true meanings. I in no way say i have the total understanding at all.

I will say, that there is an even more sad reality. The majority of people are living in hell now.

That is a very interesting concept - i take that as your own opinion and you may very well be right. I have also thought about the possibility that we are perhaps in "hell" now and how we accept God or not is akin to what you posted regarding the "Loving fire of God".

Of course, one would have to have an open mind as a Christian, and truly seek with all their heart if they are to find. And the original poster seems to be doing so, but there are always those who want to steer someone back to the straight and narrow through 'guilt' & 'fear' based theology...all the while their ego being stroked with a sense of 'superiority.'

I question myself from time to time and, i guess i could say, i try and take account of what i do and how i act and what i believe. I don't believe i am wrong because they are my beliefs but i do believe i am not perfect and fallible.

Excerpt from: The River of Fire
*SNIP*
But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.

Very good read to say the least and gets one thinking about the possibilities. The last paragraph is an indication of Gods love and mercy!

Thanks for the Post dAlen!

Originally posted by Equinox99
If someone were to believe in God yet live somewhere in the wilderness, have never heard of Jesus and the person is doing all they can to be a good person why should God punish their actions... that is ridiculous!

If they believe in God they have learned that somewhere and then one would assume too that they would know about Jesus?

But God is merciful. He will have mercy on their souls. Some believe in purgatory though the bible does not really mention purgatory. Same goes for babies that are born with original sin. They have committed no mortal sin themselves. God will have mercy.

I think there is no hell, only a heaven and if a bad person were to die their soul would vanish from existence, like a life of slumber if you will.

I agree with this. Though i still believe they will be raised up and judged again though they will not go into a lake or sea of fire.

Note:It is actually very difficult to sometimes not agree with two ideas. That's where we get cognitive dissonance. We sometimes accept 2 ideas that we would want to believe but which do we follow? hmmmm...

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
The nec plus ultra are the the people who believe in heaven but not hell...my my what bias.

On WHAT do you base the existence of Hell? Because the bible says it exists? Have you considered the metaphorical teachings in the bible?? It is not all literal. Do i believe hell exists as a burning fire - NO. Do i believe there is a state likened to Hell - YES - that's being separated from God! OR DEAD - i.e. my soul no longer exists.

Where do you think the teachings of Hell originated???

OP,
you quoted Romans 3. I'm sorry but your interpretation is an incapacity to read English, let alone Biblical interpretation.

ahhhhhhh ok; so you are saying that only you have this capacity at your disposal? Based on what?

The topic is "Hell does not exist - like we hear it will be" which with your infinite power to interpret the language is easily understood. OK, now that we have that cleared up let me attempt to respond in my limited understanding of the English language - (see below your following statement)

Apparently you're pretty confident about your righteousness since you seem to be banking on your works(?????). Congratulations, you're a better man than I.
Then again the standard is the Lord Jesus Christ himself.
But of course, you don't believe in hell so salvation is a moot point for you.

I think you have come off the rails somewhere between works and faith? I haven't made any comment that says salvation is by works alone. I am now questioning YOUR ability to read English.

Did you read my post earlier??

Salvation by Faith alone? Not a chance!

Let us do evil that good may come...
Paul here reduced the arguments of Jewish objectors to an absurdity, as it might be paraphrased, "If your method of judging is correct, then why not do evil to procure the good that would come of it?"

Whose condemnation is just ...
was Paul's way of saying that any such notion was absolutely incorrect and sinful, and justly condemned by God.

Hope that made sense? Basically it opens doors to someone want to do evil and they think they will still be saved because they have faith. So how can one just automatically expect to be saved by grace and sit back and do NO good? Nope - it doesn't work that way unfortunately. Many may tell themselves it does because that is the easy way out.

I can't put it any simpler than to say one cannot assume to be saved because of faith and go around murdering. Or do YOU believe you have faith, can commit murder and still be saved? And then what happens to the Hell of fire that you believe in?? Does it disappear?

But again, let me ask in case it was missed - where did the teachings of hell come from???

Edit to add:
If my approach in this post seems hard line i apologies. I don't want this to be a thread where we try and convert. My response is based on Isaiah 24:21's approach in trying to force, IMO, his beliefs rather than discuss why some believe the way they do and visa versa.

[edit on 16/11/2007 by shearder]