Pictures of Iran: You decide

Originally posted by kindred
You can't lump everyone under the same label. Most of the Iranian people, especially the youth don't even abide by the some of the laws you speak of.
[edit on 9-11-2007 by kindred]

Sure they don't "abide by the some of the same laws". What? They get to choose which laws to obey?

That must be why - as I mentioned earlier - the only soldiers the iranians really have to fear are their own revolutionary guards chasing them down, beating them and arresting them for dressing and acting too western.

reply to post by centurion1211


I can't help you with your brain, Centurion. You have to work that out on your own.

Originally posted by Areal51
reply to post by centurion1211

 

I can't help you with your brain, Centurion. You have to work that out on your own.

Know how a lib surrenders?

They start throwing insults and calling people names.

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Thank you sky floating, as usual a voice of reason, yes this thread was intended as an eye opener to the propaganda that has us all walking around with bias and blinders. It is not intended as a political statement simply a view that is one step towards a unified and whole planet.

You killed the propaganda in my head. I thought they lived in caves in a wasteland. Thank you. Please, people, don't destroy my planet with your greed and hate. How can I stop the warmongers? I will give my life to do it.

Originally posted by antar
Area51 you have been my champion and I am so very sorry if I did not seem to respond to your wisdom and courage in the face of the attacks.

Champion!? Courage!?? Attacks!???

I'm kinda in shock right now reading that. This is an internet discussion board, not the battle for Sparta. You're being WAY too dramatic. There are plenty that share your views. I don't want to see another war, but I wouldn't regardless of whether the grass was green and the skies were blue or not, I just don't understand why those pictures would change anything. Government propaganda must not work right on me.

That is all the attacks seem to do is to separate and take up time that could have been spent with others of like mind, people like you and several others that I have not given the right respect to.

Wow. So this thread is ONLY meant for those that agree with you. You should have put that in the title instead of "you decide", because only ONE decision seems to be acceptable. Nobody else deserves respect...

The first point I want to make is that a personal point of view is not propaganda. If you have understood Antar's first post then you would know from the beginning that what she says is not propaganda. It's a personal point of view. One can express what one thinks and feels without it being propaganda. Her views are not biased and misleading, she specifically states that every person who views the photographs should decide for themselves what the photos mean. Propagandists do not offer choice, they offer a point a view and demand you accept it as truth -- a truth that holds true no matter what other information you one might come across. Antar has not done that. She also suggests that folks consider more material than they have been given through the media. She asks whether, after viewing the photos, others feel as if they have been conned into viewing Iran in a way that's opposite from what the media and US politicians suggest. Her suggestion is that it is better to consider the whole picture rather than just part of the picture. Knowing this how is it possible that anybody could state that Antar is offering up political propaganda? She does not say or even suggest that her point of view is the only point of view to be considered. And although her voice is being broadcast all around the world through ATS, she is not in control of the ATS apparatus, nor is her voice and point of view the only voice and point of view being broadcast through the ATS apparatus. Any suggestion that she is propagandizing is ludicrious, baseless and without merit.


reply to post by centurion1211


Political propaganda, right? I specifically addressed you on the matter, and you haven't answered or substantiated anything yet. Just one snide remark after another. You referred to some folks as "U.S. haters", right? Is that not political propaganda? Is that how you address what you perceive to be wrong, by doing the same thing, breaking the rule, committing the same crime? Is that how you rectify things? You know, Antar posted pictures and suggested that each person make up her or his own mind. What you, Outrageo and others have done is worse. You've used words to polarize the thread because you feel that an injustice of some sort has occurred. You demand that everybody see things in the way that you do. That everybody come on over to your side. And if they do not then you continue your rant and star each other's posts to verify that you are united against the cause that you desperately think exists. Well, it does it exist but only in your minds. Neither of you have seemed to pay attention to any views that differ from yours. You just continue your stammering, saying the same thing over and over and over again. Never just making your point and letting it be. It is clearly more than basic disagreement. Yes, you want to convert every view to your own view. You want to call authorities in to settle the matter because you feel your claim is valid and substantiated enough that a moderator should come and assist and change things to your liking. Centurion and Outrageo you are both clearly running a campaign, and you accuse Antar of propaganda by offering up your own brand complete with a voting system designed to highlight your operation and ambitions.

There have been quite a few posts where folks have said that they appreciate the pictures but that the pictures were not persuasive enough to change their views regarding the situation between the US and Iran. There were folks who only considered the pictures themselves rather than what the photos could possibly mean. I, personally, addressed a couple of these folks because for me the pictures were not just about the pictures. This wasn't a thread designed to talk about film exposure times and quality of lighting. Nor was it a thread that was designed where the subject matter of the photos were to be the only thing considered. It was primarily designed where the point of view of those who made the pictures were considered, that the places depicted in the photos were considered as being real places where people lived, where it was obvious to see care, thought, progress, companionship, and creativity. All of these attributes obviously missing in reports from the US media. The folks I addressed, I addressed because I felt that they were missing part of the picture. It doesn't mean that I was right, it just means that based on their comments I felt that they were overlooking the major premise of the thread. This is after all a discussion, and my comments were not meant to steer them to drawing the same conclusions as I did. My statements were only meant to clarify the reason why the thread was created. That maybe they should look a little deeper. Now any of those folks could have disagreed with me and told me otherwise, and I wouldn't have taken it personally. They could have said that Iran still deserves to go down, and I wouldn't have taken it personally. In either instance I would not have embarked on a campaign to demand that they see things the way that I do, in the way that you and Outrageo have.

Why else would Outrageo send me hate mail telling me that he wishes he could take the star he gave one of my posts back? That because I disagreed with him on a point in the thread, he feels it necessary to U2U me to let me know that he thought I was on his side, that he's sorry for it and wishes he could take his star back? WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION FOR THAT?! I'll tell you what it is, the motivation is that Outrageo is taking things personally and feels that there is some sort of conflict going on whereby he must make others feel bad because he feels bad when others disagree with him. That every thing is all hunky-dory just as long as he gets his flags, stars and stripes. That in order to be considered a friend of his, or to be on the same side as he, one must not disagree with him. Otherwise one is an enemy representing the other side. That's what that is all about. And that's his motivation in this thread because the U2U was sent to me regarding my disagreement with him in this thread! So really, I ask, who is propagandizing who? From what I've experienced regarding this thread -- it is most certainly not Antar!

reply to post by 27jd


With all due respect, 27jd, Antar is being attacked, she's being accused of spreading propaganda, when the only thing she has offered is her own personal views.

The other point is that you have misinterpreted what she has said. She means that instead of her having to defend herself, because of being attacked, she could have been spending more time discussing with those who happened to share her views. She does not mean that every person who comments has to share the same perspective as she does. She does not mean that those who disagree are prohibited from making comments. What she means is that if folks disagree then that's fine. If folks don't find that viewing the photos change anything for them, then that's fine, too. She would like know about those views exactly because she suggests that folks decide for themselves what the pictures mean. In her first post she told everyone that she would wait until after several posts from others before posting her own views because she didn't want to bias the thread. I think that took quite a bit of foresight, because it seems that she expected a little controversy. So you see, she has not demanded that anybody, that any one person, agree with her. She just would have liked to have spent time in discussion with those who do agree with her, rather than fending off derogatory comments made to her.

For Antar the pictures did affect a change on her point of view regarding Iran. For her it was a positive thing, and because of that she wanted to speak to others who had the same or similar experience. She was looking to have a shared experience. That's all. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, that's why many people pile into ATS in the first place.



[edit on 9-11-2007 by Areal51]

Thank you Area51 for the kind words. Though I won’t be dignifying that rant with a response, I respect your right and privilege to say what you please and defend your principles as you believe in them...

Antar – I agree with completely. This thread IS about the Fragile Earth – you’re absolutely correct. Let’s focus on that, and NOT on Evil Governments and War-Mongering.

So - Since there are two sides to every story, here are a few of the milder photos, links, and articles specific to this topic. There were far worse ones (women beaten and killed by police for wearing western clothes, legions of children learning how to kill - carrying & shooting AK-47s, public executions and torture of children, etc.). No – none of that here (though there is plenty of that as well) – this is just about out Fragile Earth, right?

Keeping with the PRECISE theme of this thread, then; PICTURES OF IRAN: YOU DECIDE…

Iran Neglect of Toxic Trash Problem Destroying Country:
amhist.ist.unomaha.edu...
marine-litter.gpa.unep.org...

New Iran Dam Will Harm Famed Ancient Sites:
karenak.stumbleupon.com...

Iran Dumping Billions of Gallons of Untreated Waste into Gulf:
www.ahwaz.org.uk...

Iran Brings “Peaceful Purposes Only” Nuclear Ambitions On-line:
www.globalsecurity.org...

Iran Pouring 150,000Kg Daily of Organic Pollutants Into Nation’s Waterways.
www.shenidar.com...

Iran Self-Destructing Via Government-Sponsored Urbanization; Deforestation; Overgrazing; Desertification; Soil Degradation; Salination:
geology.com...

Photos: Air Pollution Completely Choking/Killing Iranian Cities – No Emission Regulation:
www.persiancultures.com...

A Small Dose of Reality about Iran:
asmalldoseofreality.bloghi.com...

Peace-Loving Iranians Having a Little Block Party:
www.derafsh.org...

Iran Wins 2006 World Stupidity Award for Reckless Endangerment of Planet:
www.stupidityawards.com...

Photo; Iran Refuses to Comply With Air Pollution Protocols:
www.aesi1.com...

Iranian Students Expelled For Protesting:
www.studenttimes.org...

Some additional resources for those wishing to decide for themselves about Iran and our Fragile Earth:

news.bbc.co.uk...

atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...

ginacobb.typepad.com...

islamthreat.blogspot.com...

illustratedpig.blogspot.com...

www.allthingsbeautiful.com...

forum.armenianclub.com...

www.jihadwatch.org...

mensa-barbie.blogspot.com...

philomathean.blogs.com...

www.bearpit.net...

reply to post by Outrageo


Right, and please do not dignify me by sending me more hate mail. I'd like that very much.


[edit on 9-11-2007 by Areal51]

You are just repeating yourself over and over. No need for me to do the same.

Now you're sounding like a child. Are you? Get over it if someone wants to "take their star back". Suggest you try posting on neopets if it's too tough for you here. And finish your homework!

reply to post by centurion1211


Keep it up. You only comment on yourself and your own delusions. "U.S. haters". Right. Sure proved that point. Propaganda. Sure proved that one, too. Don't get your hopes up, you've done neither. And it's a nice touch that you would say that I am the baby because I received the hate mail from someone complaining that he couldn't get his star back. Brilliant move there. Care to continue your snivel?




[edit on 9-11-2007 by Areal51]

Originally posted by Areal51
With all due respect, 27jd, Antar is being attacked, she's being accused of spreading propaganda, when the only thing she has offered is her own personal views.

I agree that she offered her personal views. And I agree it's not propaganda. IMO, none of us spread propaganda, since there is NO clear definition of what propaganda is. Here, it's just a convenient attack word for somebody who doesn't agree with the opionion of someone else. My personal view of what propaganda really is, is when the party who actually gains spreads lies or at least hypes up info to get others to accept their views and proposed course of action. Far as I know, nobody here on ATS gains anything, and we all just offer our own views.

Another point I wanted to make, but the poster above already did, was that somebody could do the exact opposite and post images of brutality and pollution in Iran, then say the SAME thing. "You decide", but there is an undeniable political message in that once the OP brings up the current political issues with Iran in the same post, regardless if the OP says there isn't, and they would be attacked the SAME by those against military action in Iran.

If antar had simply posted those pictures in this forum, said "wow, I had no idea Iran had so many nice places", and people STILL got political about it, then I would agree with you completely and they would be WAY out of line. But politics were brought into it, regardless if she say they weren't. I see what I see, and it's clear, so, she should accept the inevitable by the opposing camp. As for me, it's lonely in the middle, lol.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Iran is full of life and beauty. Countries are too often destroyed with bombs, bullets, and especially with the indifference of an entire population of people. We can not risk the complete cultural devistation a war with this country will unleash. It is in our best interest as human being to make peace with our brothers and sisters of any foreign land. We should study and appreciate the beautiful country and the fascinating culture that has developed from such.




"Life's a garden. Dig it." - Joe Dirt.

what's sad is we don't live in a perfect world. I am only concerned with weapons falling in the wrong hands like they have with Bush. Maybe our Government fears Iran, and sees this beauty as a sign of their growth. How do we stunt this growth? Annihilation.

reply to post by 27jd


If your last explanation doesn't work to show how this in fact was a political OP, then sad to say nothing probably will.

Keep up the good posts.



[edit on 11/9/2007 by centurion1211]

reply to post by 27jd


Thanks for your response, 27jd. It really helped to clarify something for me. This is what Antar said on the first page of the thread:

Originally posted by antar
I just wanted to remind our forum members that this is in Fragile Earth Section of the Forum. Political debates could be better served in the appropriate area found on the board page. Thankyou

Offering up political commentary relative to the photos is not the same thing as having a political debate regarding the photos. I think this is where a great deal of misunderstanding has come from. Nearly everyone who has taken a look at the photos has made some sort of political remark. Given the current situation between the US and Iran it's impossible not to view those photos through a political lens. So it's perfectly okay to make political statements in this thread. What is not encouraged is where folks would go back and forth, one side against another, posing arguments regarding those political statements.

If one pays attention to Antar's exchange with nyk537 on the second page of this thread, Antar's point becomes even more clear. And nyk537 makes a very simple statement about the need for perspective regarding the photos and any decision one might make after having seen them. Then, on the second page, Centurion responds to a post made by jbondo. Centurion accused Antar of setting up a smokescreen! He says,

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by jbondo

 

Thanks for cutting through all the smokescreen to expose the OP's true agenda - and the fallacy of it - that if a war were to unfortunately happen, the U.S. would be carpet bombing the entire country into dust.

Thus the debate began. Smokescreens and fallacies, according to Centurion. Up until this point, i.e., Centurion's comment, nothing but a discussion was taking place. Not a debate. A discussion where folks were airing their different point of views. This includes jbondo. Nothing wrong until Centurion accuses Antar of constructing a fallacy and smokescreen. No one said or intimated previous to Centurion's post that the U.S was going to carpet bomb the entire country of Iran. Copernicus expressed hope that the US would not bomb Iran in the way the US bombed Iraq. jbondo clarified that that is not likely to happen, that a precision strike was more likely. But no one suggested that it would happen to begin with. Right after Centurion made his quoted comment above, folks started chiming in on a debate.

Somehow Centurion found a fallacy in a smokescreen. He accused Antar of going through life wearing rose colored glasses and that it was inaccurate of her to view things the way that she did. He never qualified this assertion -- the incorrect reasoning of Antar. He just said that it existed. Then he started accusing her of spreading propaganda. All of this and additional insults, because he could not comprehend, or care to notice, the simple distinction between making political commentary and having a political debate.

Following that folks started going off about how no one should be allowed to say anything political. Nothing worse than someone jumping into a discussion without taking the time to understand exactly what is going on.

Thanks again for your response, 27jd, it was very helpful.

Hopefully, we are back on topic.












[edit on 9-11-2007 by Areal51]

Originally posted by Outrageo


So - Since there are two sides to every story, here are a few of the milder photos, links, and articles specific to this topic. There were far worse ones

All this is about the selectively publicized activities of a government. None of it has anything to do with Iran as a country, or the people, or the culture.

You might as well pick (well there is so much to pick from, but here's a start) the Abu Ghraib prison abuses, Guantanamo Bay detentions outside international law, executions in Texas, violent schoolroom shootings by minors, profligate consumption of planetary resources with apparently little regard for conservation...and say that's all the USA amounts to. You and I know that this sort of one-sided picture does not sum up the USA in all its aspects.

Best not to fall into that trap with other places. Especially if you've never visited, and don't even personally know the place.

Pictures of Iran: You Decide...

Iran Destroys Huge Internationally Protected Lake as Cultural Punishment:
www.irinnews.org...

Population Explosion in Tehran Reaches Crisis Due to Poor Infrastructure:
www.iranlink.addr.com...

A Little Problem at the Oil Docks:
www.spiegel.de...

Iran Poisons Own Landscape in Search of Oil:
www.ahwaz.org.uk...

Iran to Destroy Huge Natural Park w/Rare & Endangered Species for Development:
www.rferl.org...
(p.s. the above article is in the “Fragile Planet” section. Appropriate, no?)

Street Market Closing time – No Laws to Manage Refuse:
taheny.com...

Iran Citizens Riot - Torch Gas Stations – Rations& .25 cents/gallon is Too Much!:
www.telegraph.co.uk...
activistchat.com...

Iran Deforestation Blows Tons of Dust to Sea:
modis.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Sounds like there is a great need for an "I hate Iran" thread here on the forum. A safe place where at least 5 post would be made and at least 5 flags would be raised in solidarity.


This thread is NOT about Iran!!!! it is about the vulnerability of our planet in the hands of the propagandists that keep us fighting and against one another. That force us without our conscious minds seeing that that is what they are doing. We have been manipulated. We are still being manipulated. I was not expecting the pictures to be as they were, I dreaded opening them (Just like coming on the board because of the attacks and misinterpretation of my thoughts and feelings in this thread) but I did because my loyalty to my brother (much like my friends here on ats)and I was so surprised at what I saw, it was so unexpected, it made me realize all these years I have had a one sided and bias opinion of the country. And of many things, what foods I buy, what Movies I buy, what drinks I enjoy, what car I drive. Get it???I will take this as a strong lesson, I will be more aware of being controlled.


I am so very fortunate to have so many come to my side , so many that have come to my aid because they understand the heart of this woman, the intent of this thread. I felt like crying when I finally got the courage and strength to log in tonight and saw not the bad comments and derailment, but the comments from people who understood and had the courage to stand up against the "Populars". Wow what more can I say but Thankyou.

I am relatively new to this forum, and it is portrayed to be the kindness place on the net. It makes me wonder just who my attackers are and why the Mods have not stepped in to my rescue??? Are my attackers part of a hierarchy of behind the scenes collaborators with the mods? Have they proven themselves so many times that the mods just back them no matter how cruel and wrong they are?

I was afraid to come here tonight, I felt like never coming back to ATS.

I came back because even in the face of adversity and hate mongers, I owe it to those that have grown from this thread others like me.

It is amazing the extent that some have gone to to go to war with me personally. Really amazing, so much energy directed, thank you....

Energy is energy...

Originally posted by antar
This thread is NOT about Iran?

It's not????

I've looked again through all your posts and can't find any pictures of any other place on earth, or a reference to any other country. First it was the political nature of your thread, now you're being disingenuous about the country you personally have named many times throughout this thread.

What's next, you didn't really write the OP and all the posts attributed to you?

As for being "afraid to come back to ATS", that's just ludicrous. You are still perfectly safe behind your screen and keyboard. But until you can understand how you went wrong with your thread, the only thing you need to "fear" is having it possibly happen again. 27jd is "neutral" and IMO explains your problem very well - if you care to listen. Also, this is where I believe Area51 has done you no favors by supporting you ad nauseum. You might have learned something ...



[edit on 11/9/2007 by centurion1211]

You don't get it, nor me...