Obama refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance

I don't know who the lady was that was singing the anthem, but it was, in my opinion, a bigger disgrace than Obama not putting his hand over his heart... God, what a screech!!

Yeah it is much ado about nothing. Still the man has no respect and the lax way he responds and carry's himself is disgraceful.

[edit on 1-11-2007 by Digital_Reality]

My Opinion

The whole pledge and anthem deal seems a bit odd to me.

Just like I could care less if someone likes doing something I really could care

less if someone doesn't do something.

Anybody tried enjoying life for awhile? maybe go to some warm place that

serves drinks while you sit on the beach?

thats my opinion

Originally posted by nyk537
It's becoming group think because I'm seeing more and more of it everyday.

It's become popular and almost cool to rebel against government and authority now. Obviously you have the right to question our government and do as you choose. However, not saying the pledge or singing the national anthem just because you think it's brainwashing proves nothing. It's more of an example of just wanting to be different than actually doing something meaningful.

And I'll agree with Strangecraft; I think if we get that almighty European model of society so many here are beginning to talk about, you'll immediately regret wishing for it.

To me the issue is simple. If your proud of what your country is doing (now) and the policies that they enforce then saying the pledge would make perfect sense. On the other hand if you disagree with the policies of the current administration then I see no problem with not doing the pledge.

I know this sounds anti-American but if you look at the simple facts of our time it can only lead you to one conclusion. We have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq (and possibly soon Iran) and at the time of invasion I supported both. I supported them because I believed we had to retaliate for the attack on 9/11. I supported the attack on Iraq because ALL of the media said that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction! (WMD's) and sadly... I didn't think they could be wrong/lying to me. I kept supporting these wars until 1 strange day when I was watching the news and they all at once one day (And yes this was bizarre to me) the media at the same time DECIDED that really weapons of mass destruction wouldn't be found in Iraq. This confused me completely because i had no idea how they could all decide one day that they would NEVER be found.. how did they know this? Immediately I became enraged that the 1 reason I supported this war and without a doubt millions of Americans was being demolished before my eyes(and there was NO outrage from the media). It was at this point I realized that the real reason we went to Iraq was not WMD's it was something much bigger.. that I may never know.. and can only guess. On top of this the other war I supported had failed to even capture/kill the mastermind behind the attack Osama Bin Laden. I was even worried the media would come out and say we'll never find Osama either... (But they smartened up).

I use to do the pledge and I also used to participate in the national anthem but after realizing these things I could not do either without feeling like I'm lying to myself. I say this for a reason. If you examine the national anthem you can see where it says this:
"Then conquer we must, when our cause is just, and this be our motto:
In God is our trust". source
When this was written America was a different. We had a just cause for every war we ever entered and we have NEVER in the history of the united states have we started a war until now(And we started two of them) and possibly soon a third. Are we justified to bomb and then invade a country because we believed they had WMD's only to find that the reason for war was false? I know that some people will say maybe there was no WMD's but they had a vicious dictator in charge. Well ask yourself do you think more people were injured/killed under his regime than under the 5 years of non-stop war since our invasion. And even if we could have invaded and dealt with the war better does this mean we should invade all countries that have dictators?.. or do we have to say the have Wmd's first.

To end this Im not saying all of these things because I think it's cool to rebel against the government. As I said I supported them until I found out the facts. I have changed my mind about the war and have changed my mind about our government with it. I refuse to pledge allegiance until there is justice.



[edit on 1-11-2007 by ready4whatever]

Originally posted by ready4whatever
To me the issue is simple. If your proud of what your country is doing (now) and the policies that they enforce then saying the pledge would make perfect sense. On the other hand if you disagree with the policies of the current administration then I see no problem with not doing the pledge.
[edit on 1-11-2007 by ready4whatever]

This is exactly where you and I will find a fundamental disagreement my friend. It doesn’t matter what the current administration is doing in regards to whether or not you say the pledge or sing the anthem. Those were not written to glorify or show respect to whatever President was in office or whatever elected leaders were running this country. The Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem were written to show pride and love for this great country. While I too disagree with most of the policies and actions of this current administration, it does not change my love and pride for this country one bit.

And I will continue to express that pride and love no matter how terrible the actions of our current government.

deleted post... friend posted on my account.. plus his link didn't even work -.-

[edit on 2-11-2007 by ready4whatever]

Originally posted by ready4whatever
Actually it does matter what the administration is doing because without it, there is no nation. And I'm not saying all of this just because I don't like our current president and leaders.I understand you want to be proud of America, and we all want the same thing, but you can't ignore the facts. How can you glorify something that is not there? There is no more America.
Tell me what makes you so proud when you turn on the news?

Sure there is. Just because our current adminastration has made mistakes does not mean our country is not still here. America is still the greatest country in the world, hands down. We have more liberties and rights than anyone else, no matter how many you argue the government is infringing upon. I am proud of what this country is at heart, I'm proud of what it was built on. Obviously we have strayed off the beaten path here, but my love for what this country REALLY is remains.

The main disagreement I have with you Nyc is this you keep justifying the present with the past. I agree that America has always been a great country that stands for everything that we love. But because I believe this am I to ignore or turn a blind eye to the terrible things we do (now).
You made a startling statement that I think completely explains our differences in opinions.
You said and i quote: "And I will continue to express that pride and love no matter how terrible the actions of our current government."
This is where we disagree. I cannot continue to express pride or love because I am not proud of what our country is(NOW). Why should I love our country more than I love the living beings dying in our wars. Forget the past we are doing terrible things now that must be stopped. You keep saying it's just our current administration. Well our current administration has been running the United States of America for almost 2 complete terms now. They run America and what they do determines whether we are hated or loved throughout the world. America at one time was a country loved throughout the world. Now you can only find extremely patriotic Americans who are living in America that say they love it. I would easily give my up patriotism if it means standing up for the good of all of man-kind.
If you remember when Hitler started his campaign for global dominance he used patriotism as his number 1 tool to inspire his countrymen to fight. He said they were fighting in the interest of national security. This is the same exact thing Bush and his administration has said time and time again. As a matter of fact I have a quote from bush that WORD FOR WORD is the same as Hitlers. "An evil exists that threatens every man, woman, and child of this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland."

www.kafka.com...

My point is that you cannot stand by and say your proud of your country while your country is destabilizing the globe. Unfortunately patriotism has been proven throughout history a useful tool of manipulation. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with patriotism, but it can be used for good and bad. If our polices were those of peace, and we only resorted to war when we had real proof and good intentions then patriotism in America I'm sure would be at an all time high. But instead we have policies of war without reason, and unknown intentions. What is their to be patriotic about? The past? We need to look at what were doing now and forget how good we once were. If we don't then it will be impossible to get back to being a great country.

[edit on 2-11-2007 by ready4whatever]

Fact is, the man is running for President. He should be doing everything possible to set the best example for the people of this nation. Most Americans believe that it is respectful to place your hand over your heart when the National Anthem is being played. They also believe that saying the Pledge of Allegiance is a respectful and honorable way to pay homage to your nation, and reaffirm your dedication to it. Not the current Administration, not our lame politicians, but our Nation.

As for those who claim to be ashamed of America, such is your right and no one can make you change your mind. What is getting terribly old is the constant drumbeat of Euro-envy that comes across the threads on this site. I've travelled through Europe, several times, and I'm not in awe of it. The nations, especially Germany, seem to be overbearing nanny-states. France is at the mercy of the people who believe they are entitled to care from the womb to the tomb. had Royal been elected, their economy would've collapsed. The Brits spy on their people to an extent unknown in the US. The Nordic countries are beautiful, but not the epitomes of acceptance that they claim to be. Example:



Run that in America, and watch the cities burn. Rightly so, I might add.

Obama is a disgrace, and a child. The man graduated from college 16 years ago, and thinks he can run the Country. Grow up, learn to show respect where it's due, and come back when you have a spine.

Originally posted by nyk537
I have to disagree with you here MM. Saying the pledge of allegiance is not "brainwashing" or "group think" at all. I say the pledge because I WANT to, not because it has been forced on me.

If that is true, how often do you say it when not instructed to stand and say it with a group. If it really is just your feelings why do you need to be prompted and group-atized to do it?

Allegiance should be to ideals, I support the ideals of justice and freedom, I do not support the ideals of extream wealth and empire, both are part of the principles of America, how can I simply swear allegiance to the country.

It is a method to do without thought, to follow without knowing the reason.

Wow blood thirst.. I don't know where to start with you. ;/ Obama you said should be trying to set the best example for the people of this nation. That's exactly what he was doing... He refused the pledge and national anthem because he knows what America really stands for right now. We are looked at by the world (and I know you think that means only Europe) as an aggressive nation. One that ignored other countries warnings when they told us not to invade Iraq. One that supposedly went to Afghanistan to stop Osama but where is Osama? Not in Iraq..
You say you should support the Nation, regardless if you like the leaders, the politicians, and the policies. Holy crap your right I love America! I just don't support everything that it stands for and every single person in power inside of America. But besides that America rocks!! Is this how u think??? I'm extremely confused. You speak as if America was a person. Oh sure the people leading America suck, and of course their policies should be illegal but America is really a nice guy.. you should meet him.
We don't have the luxury of having it both ways. People are dying right now because of polices that America currently has. You say that "you should say the pledge" because your proud of your Nation, and not because your proud of what America does(I know it wasn't America is was just the "Current Administration"). Do you even listen to yourself?
Do you not understand that those who LEAD America set examples to the world about what America stands for? Not to mention they choose who, what, where, when, and why we invade other countries. But besides the Current Administration and the current politicians.. and the current reality... America is a pretty nice country. Of course anybody can say America is better than most other countries(some say all) to live in. Does the fact our country isn't as bad as other countries yet make it excusable for us to have a few rights taken away from us here and there. Does America being better than other countries mean we have permission to invade other countries for false reasons?
On another note bloodthirst you said your tired of the constant euro-envy in posts. Interesting.. I never mentioned Europe once. What I did say was that America once loved throughout the world and now we are hated and in some places (Like Iran) feared. Personally, I don't envy anything about Europe except for one thing. I envy the fact that not 1 single country in Europe has caused most of the world to dislike and fear them. Less Germany did during ww2.

Originally posted by ready4whatever
That's exactly what he was doing... He refused the pledge and national anthem because he knows what America really stands for right now. We are looked at by the world (and I know you think that means only Europe) as an aggressive nation. One that ignored other countries warnings when they told us not to invade Iraq. One that supposedly went to Afghanistan to stop Osama but where is Osama? Not in Iraq..

Why do you believe that I think that Europe = Rest of the World? I didn't mention that anywhere in my post. But apparently you "know" it, so good for you. I do believe that America is seen by many as an aggressive nation, but that a nation's policies should not be dictated by the results of global popularity contests. Furthermore, the US did not go into Afghanistan just to "stop Osama", but also to topple the Taliban regime, which we did in a few weeks. Thanks to that, girls can now be educated in Afghanistan, and the people have more freedom than they did in 2000.

You say you should support the Nation, regardless if you like the leaders, the politicians, and the policies. Holy crap your right I love America! I just don't support everything that it stands for and every single person in power inside of America. America is really a nice guy.. you should meet him.

America is a nation of over 300 million people, and a history that stretches back 400 years (including the Colonial Era). Thus, the character of a nation is developed over time by the actions of a nation, and by the people who comprise it. Your argument is that the nation changes precisely what it is with each new leader. The world, then, judges the nation by its leaders. That's what political scientists refer to as the Ecological Fallacy (might want to look that one up). America is not George Bush, or Cheney, wasn't Clinton, and won't be whoever is next. America is a huge institution, a nation of people, founded upon the words of the Constitution. Your perception, if you'll forgive me, comes across as being very superficial. "America is this one administration, that's it." Think a little deeper. Study history a bit harder.

Does the fact our country isn't as bad as other countries yet make it excusable for us to have a few rights taken away from us here and there. Does America being better than other countries mean we have permission to invade other countries for false reasons?

Examples would be terrific here. If you are speaking in reference to the Patriot Act, it was signed into law by the Representatives and Senators of the People. If you don't like it, take it up with your own politicians. What you consider the unexcusable, others might consider appropriate measures. Welcome to Democracy.

On another note bloodthirst you said your tired of the constant euro-envy in posts. Interesting.. I never mentioned Europe once. What I did say was that America once loved throughout the world and now we are hated and in some places (Like Iran) feared. I envy the fact that not 1 single country in Europe has caused most of the world to dislike and fear them. Less Germany did during ww2.

What I actually said was:

...the constant drumbeat of Euro-envy that comes across the threads on this site.

Thus, not your posts, but those of the entire ATS site. You probably just misread it. No biggie.

In response, I would say of course they haven't. No European nation, except France, Germany and the UK, has been important in world politics since the beginning of the 20th century (excluding the WWs). Can't piss people off if they don't realize you're there. BTW, you should check out the former colonies of France, specifically in Africa and E Asia to see how beloved they are there. Also, what about the USSR? Not considering them European? Pretty sure they were important

Forgive the edits to your quotes;Just done for space

I ran out of room in my other post, but feel that this is an important point to make.

The "rest of the world" hating us is far too broad a statement to take seriously, but it plays well in sound-bite politics. I've been through Asia, mostly on business, and will tell you that America is huge over in China, parts of SE Asia, and of course Japan. If you are an American in China, you will be stopped nearly everywhere you go, and asked to help someone practice English. They want to know about where you come from, what its like, etc. etc. Most of the Chinese leaders at present were actually educated in the States, at least at the University level.

Japan is also a big fan of the US. The Japanese tend to be wary of foreigners, but as an American, you have a bit of goodwill thrown your way. While in Japan, I was floored by the friendliness of the people, and their attitudes. Politics, to them, is just politics. They are aware of how much crap it is, and that the leaders don't necessarily represent the people.

Unfortunately, our Anglo-centric world tends to forget about the other half of the globe far too often.

Yo screw Obama look at a peice of this story i got from NORML today.

"Democratic Presidential frontrunners Hillary Clinton (D-NY), Barack Obama (D-IL), and former Sen. John Edwards (D-NC) oppose decriminalizing marijuana so Americans who use pot recreationally would no longer face arrest and imprisonment.

Appearing at this week’s Democratic Presidential debate at Drexel University, all three candidates indicated that they opposed decriminalizing the possession and use of marijuana for adults."

Hilliary and Edwards no surprise..but screw Obama. I thought he had more intestional fortitude than that. Hey Obama..your people (and i use that term loosley at this point) are getting their communities and individual rights RAPED by this corrupt anti-weed policy, that lets these white cops beat us up and harrass us simply because it's a way for them to keep blacks down.

Oh but it's ok..just keep smiling and selling out for the white man. Nevermind that african-americans make up the majority of all persons incarcerated in the US. Nevermind that these white cops abuse these retarted pot laws, as an excuse to stop and search black kids they feel "look like a threat". Don't worry Obama we heard you loud and clear, you don't give a **** about the black community, because it's obvious you are not black.

He's just another Oreo House that should not be trusted. He ain't no black candidate, just blackface white candidate that stands for the same corrupt **** that all his little white friends stand for. I knew there was something screwy with him. What a sell out.

Apparently he doesn't even relize he's the black candidate..and apparently he doesn't even relize he's black at all. Oh well at least they threw him in there as a token figure. Maybe in another 10 or 15 years we can get a Black presidential candidate who will actually do some good..and fight for some serious change..instead of just saying "yessum!" and supporting whatever corrupt crap came before him. But i can't say i'm surprised..america will not elect a Black president yet...

DO NOT ------- VOTE FOR BARACK OBAMA.

Hillary looked 'very' fidgety during the video and during the part "the bombs bursting in air" she looked up into the sky as if she was looking into to a future portal or something and a smile arose on her face????
Ok this was just my oppinion. I used to LOVE the Clintons and did well financially last when Bill was in office. Oh well, I have never before felt so disconnected with the United States politics as I do now. We are beyond a need for a one world Goverment, we need to scrap it all and start over in a new and enlightening manner. In the meantime our country which at one time had all the possibilities, has been sold and sent down the river and so have the founding fathers and us the people. Shame.

Why do we put our hand over our heart?

Are we the Roman Empire?



NRE?

i don't say the pledge, i don't put my hand over my heart, i don't even stand for it.

i stand for a constitution, a set of ideas and ideals, not some piece of clothe and an oath to it that violates all of it

Originally posted by BloodthirstyCapitalist
I do believe that America is seen by many as an aggressive nation, but that a nation's policies should not be dictated by the results of global popularity contests. Furthermore, the US did not go into Afghanistan just to "stop Osama", but also to topple the Taliban regime, which we did in a few weeks. Thanks to that, girls can now be educated in Afghanistan, and the people have more freedom than they did in 2000.

Interesting point, since we shouldn't base our policies around "global popularity contests" should we instead base it on false intelligence? Does our current policy involve having a conscience? I think that listening the global community would have been a great idea when it comes to starting a war. We ignored other countries warnings and invaded two countries. You said we toppled the Taliban regime in weeks but I'm afraid your looking in the past. The Taliban are live and strong in Afghanistan and have been since 2003.source I would be surprised if I'm telling you something you already haven't heard (unless you only watch fox). Now my sources clearly show me that the Taliban was at its peak last year.

"Taliban fighters staged a surprise comeback last year with the bloodiest violence since U.S.-led troops forced them from power in 2001. More than 4,000 people were killed on both sides in 2006 including nearly 170 foreign troops".source

The reason of course that they were able to make a comeback is because we sent the majority of our troops to Iraq. So if your saying that we toppled the Taliban regime in "a few weeks" then why are we still fighting them to this day. Maintaining peace in Afghanistan would have not been an issue if we had not invaded Iraq.

In response, I would say of course they haven't. No European nation, except France, Germany and the UK, has been important in world politics since the beginning of the 20th century (excluding the WWs). Can't piss people off if they don't realize you're there. BTW, you should check out the former colonies of France, specifically in Africa and E Asia to see how beloved they are there. Also, what about the USSR? Not considering them European? Pretty sure they were important.

Being important in your opinion is the reason we're pissing people off? I beg to differ I think it is because of our aggressive stance when it comes to Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran. We are acting like we can do whatever we want. There are plenty of countries that are "important in world politics" right now like France, Germany, and the UK. Not to mention the rest of Europe, and they aren't pissing anybody off.. as you put it.

I agree with your "Important point" as you state "The rest of the world" hating us is far too broad a statement to take seriously. I would say the countries we bombed then invaded with high numbers of civilian casualties might hate us. If somebody bombed our cities and you had lost loved ones you might feel the need for justice and retaliate. I think that most Europeans do not hate America, I am quite certain though that they dislike our policies and therefore not think very much of us. You can clearly see most of Europe does not support our political views as well, and we have been warned by Russia and other countries.

[edit on 3-11-2007 by ready4whatever]

Originally posted by ready4whatever
Interesting point, since we shouldn't base our policies around "global popularity contests" should we instead base it on false intelligence? Does our current policy involve having a conscience?

No, we should base our actions upon the best information that we have at the time. When the invasion of Iraq was being planned, that intelligence apparently indicated that Iraq had some sort of WMDs, and that they were a threat to the region. As for the conscience part, of course it comes into play. The problem is conscience is an entirely subjective measure. Was it right to go into Iraq? Many would argue absolutely not. Fair enough. Was it right of the world NOT to help the Burmese people overthrow a vicious military junta? To stand idly by and watch hundreds, if not thousands, of Buddhist monks be beaten and shot in the street? How about the inaction of the UN in regards to the Darfur situation? If you base all of your Foreign Policy on what you (as a soverign government) believe to be right or wrong, you are going to get into serious trouble.

You said we toppled the Taliban regime in weeks but I'm afraid your looking in the past. The Taliban are live and strong in Afghanistan and have been since 2003

Just because the Taliban are still engaging troops in Afghanistan does not mean that they are just as powerful as they ever were. Considering that they no longer control the nation through fear and brutality. They aren't the government anymore, so I would argue that they have significantly less power than they did before.

Being important in your opinion is the reason we're pissing people off?

Not my opinion at all. You stated that :

I envy the fact that not 1 single country in Europe has caused most of the world to dislike and fear them. Less Germany did during ww2.

My point was that since most of the European nations played little to no part in global politics, except for UK, France & Germany, they couldn't piss anyone off. Thus, by your logic, the only thing the US has to do to stop people from disliking them would be to not do anything. Conversely, if a nation plays an active role in the world, and projects power around the world, they are obviously going to rub some people the wrong way. I believe its rather hard to play the part of a wallflower in global politics when you are the sole remaining Superpower.

On that topic, as I stated before, what about the USSR? Pretty sure they were none too popular around the world, and they are generally considered a European nation. I'll just take that as the exception to your statement.

I think that most Europeans do not hate America, I am quite certain though that they dislike our policies and therefore not think very much of us. You can clearly see most of Europe does not support our political views as well, and we have been warned by Russia and other countries.

Are you speaking in reference to Iran here? To that, I would simply argue that you are incorrect. President Sarkozy is clearly in support of stopping Iran from developing nuclear capabilities, and is a great supporter of American policies. As for Russia and China, they have economic interests in the region, more so than most Euro nations. Who do you think is helping Iran build their reactors? Where do you think alot of that Iranian oil is flowing towards? Russia and China aren't against action against Iran out of the goodness of their hearts; its not their consciences speaking. They have interests that they wish to protect, and seek to curb American power and influence as well. Once again, politics trumps progress and protection.

Thanks for the reply!

I just hate the pledge because it seems like brain washing the way it is introduced to citizens. Would love to see it gone.