NEEDED: everyones theories, beliefs, facts on the bible...post here

reply to post by defcon5


Thanks, Defcon5. I can always count on you to come to the rescue especially when I'm burnt out on a topic. I agree with that interpretation as well but was worried it would be too "theological" and against the K.I.S.S. principle. Starred and much thanks.

[edit on 2/26/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by defcon5


sounds wonderful.....this is something i can fairly subscribe to..although there still are plenty of assumptions in that little reference there...but
boy, you guys really like to beat the dead horse dont you?

why is this the only thing being commented on?
is this a main basis for believing the bibe 100%?

..or a way to justify a religion based on a book that could possibly serve a human agenda and being to scared that there is a chance you could be wrong about the whole christian faith?



maybe..just maybe

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
and in my opinion, like i stated before, if there is a book, or person claiming the things that the BIBLE claims there NEEDS to be MORE evidence and corroboration that what is said is true.

Here you want some corroboration from other sources:

Allah took Jesus to heaven where he awaits until the day of judgment when he will return to earth (3: 55). Muslim traditions teach that Muhammad died not knowing if he would be judged worthy to enter Paradise - where God has already placed Jesus. Muhammad is Dead and buried in Saudi Arabia. Jesus is alive both with God in heaven (paradise) and in Spirit with his followers on Earth. (Koran 3:55; 4:158,159)

Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions. - Origen Against Celsus

And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place . . . ” - Origen Against Celsus

Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar. - De. opif. mund. II21

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus…

Roman historian Tacitus, writing in his Annals about the Great Fire of Rome.

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and (he) was known to be virtuous and many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not desert his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Arab historian Agapius of Manbij, unaltered quote of Flavius Josephus.

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.

Julius Africanus writing about the crucifixion of Christ based on the earlier writings of Thallus

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
so god chose abraham and his "people/descendants" (even though semite jews are not a race) as the chosen people. well how did the person who wrote this know? how did he know what people were believing in the Americas (becaiuse there is plenty of evidence there was man in the americas 6,000 b.c)? how did he know what people were worshipping in asia and africa?...these places (more than likely) were not even known by ancient man...so why was it that abraham was chosen and not some ancient pre-recorded history indian or african?

God spoke directly to the patriarchs and he told them they were chosen and why. In addition, when the bible speaks of the whole world, generally they are referring to the whole known world, not the whole Planet Earth. That area generally encompassed the upper part of Africa, the Lower part of Europe, and the Middle East over to India. It’s the way that people thought back then, even Alexander the Great considered his conquest to be over the whole world, yet he obviously did not conquer the Americas.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
boy, you guys really like to beat the dead horse dont you?

..or a way to justify a religion...being to scared that there is a chance you could be wrong about the whole christian faith?

See, that is what gets to me with such arguments. When a question is not answered it is because 'Christians have no answer therefore Christianity is fake.' When Christians answer the questions with nail on the head accuracy and facts it is because 'we're threatened our beliefs may be false therefore we are compelled to defend them.'

Not so. If we don't answer a question it is most likely because we have answered it a thousand times before or truly do not know and can only speculate. Or because it is a silly question in the first place. If we do answer a question it is typically because of threads like this with the title "Everyone's theories, beliefs, facts on the Bible." Then of course others will question some of the things we say and the discussion continues until we get bored. Seems pretty simple.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
why is this the only thing being commented on?
is this a main basis for believing the bibe 100%?

No someone asked about it and I answered. Someone asked about aircraft landing lights in another thread and I answered that as well, it doesn’t mean there is a grand conspiracy there…
Pretty simple, eh?

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
..or a way to justify a religion based on a book that could possibly serve a human agenda and being to scared that there is a chance you could be wrong about the whole christian faith?

Actually, you cannot force a human agenda based on true Christian teachings. You see, true Christians believe in salvation through grace, not by the works that they do or don’t do in this world. The only way that you can force an agenda is using the positive/negative reinforcement structure of a Works based salvation scheme. That is why the Roman Catholic Church was successful at using Religion to control whole countries back before the protestant reformation, because they teach "time in Purgatory" and salvation based on both Works and Grace. Luther ended that for them, and they very rapidly declined in political power over the next 300 years, until Napoleon finished them off as a political force entirely around 1790.

reply to post by defcon5

[quote/]
That area generally encompassed the upper part of Africa, the Lower part of Europe, and the Middle East over to India.

EXACTLY!!..lol
thanks for proving my point

and when you say god spoke the the patriarchs..are you taking words out of the bible again!?

you are not getting it..where is there proof that god chose abraham other than in the bible???

no where sir. NO WHERE..the old testament pushes power agendas written from times of ancent egypt when the habarew people ruled as pharoahs over the egyptions...thats right..there were hebrew pharoahs,,,no historical evidence jews were EVER slaves in Egypt.

this sounds crazy, but look up connections between ancient semite leaders and the Queen of England. there are many, believe it or not. do the research yourself

now, i know im gunna get labeled an anti-semite, but that is not the case at all. i believe jews, christians and muslims have ALL had the vail pulled over there eyes for a long time.

and why would you pull quotes from one religious source to quote another? isnt the koran the first 5 books of the torah anyway?

and isnt the torah the entire old testament?

sorry..not ancient semite leaders..it was the hiksaw pharoahs of old world egypt

im tired

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
why is this the only thing being commented on?
is this a main basis for believing the bibe 100%?

No someone asked about it and I answered. Someone asked about aircraft landing lights in another thread and I answered that as well, it doesn’t mean there is a grand conspiracy there…
Pretty simple, eh?

come one man..i dont know if u are tryin to be funny, but who said there was a grand conspiracy?

im starting to feel this is a waste of time...

..or a way to justify a religion based on a book that could possibly serve a human agenda and being to scared that there is a chance you could be wrong about the whole christian faith?

Actually, you cannot force a human agenda based on true Christian teachings. You see, true Christians believe in salvation through grace, not by the works that they do or don’t do in this world. The only way that you can force an agenda is using the positive/negative reinforcement structure of a Works based salvation scheme. That is why the Roman Catholic Church was successful at using Religion to control whole countries back before the protestant reformation, because they teach "time in Purgatory" and salvation based on both Works and Grace. Luther ended that for them, and they very rapidly declined in political power over the next 300 years, until Napoleon finished them off as a political force entirely around

i was more referencing an agenda that dates back a long long time. one that may exist today..though i dont see where it would lead to... but i DO see why it was possibly implemented in the old egyptian empire all the way through the dark ages and up until 1948... i would think it would be complete when israel was stolen from the former inhabitants, but who knows with all the malarchy going on today.

[edit on 9/16/07 by abelievingskeptic]

reply to post by AshleyD

When a question is not answered it is because 'Christians have no answer therefore Christianity is fake.'

you aer supposed to have the answers though... no? according to defcon. everything lies in the spiritual guidance of the bible...but you guys are the ones asserting that the bible is infallable and 100% correct in its history and divine claims...

once again, if you make the claims..have the info, resources or knowledge to back it up!!

this is the way you proove your point and if so desired to convert people with real, logical questions.

if you can not back them up then dont make them.

now im not saying you or anyone else is fake....

When Christians answer the questions with nail on the head accuracy and facts it is because 'we're threatened our beliefs may be false therefore we are compelled to defend them.'

this may be true with some pople who are scared of being wrong about thinking christianity is not 100% correct. i am not scared of being wrong. in fact i have stated multiple times in this very thread i hope i am wrong and hope someone can prove it.

now if you are lumping me into that group of people then i am losing my respect for your opinion...that simple

i have been inquisitive not for the sake of inquisitiveness, but for the sake to maybe learn something more about the christian faith that may have something substantial to offer..

so far neither of you have offered much at all. and the defensiveness is getting old..

Not so. If we don't answer a question it is most likely because we have answered it a thousand times before or truly do not know and can only speculate. Or because it is a silly question in the first place. If we do answer a question it is typically because of threads like this with the title "Everyone's theories, beliefs, facts on the Bible." Then of course others will question some of the things we say and the discussion continues until we get bored. Seems pretty simple.

i have not seen any of the previous questions i posted answered anywhere. if you have links..feel free to provide...if you do not wish to answer them..dont. no one is making you reply, but the 'holier than thou' attitude isn't very becoming...for a christian

and...
perhaps it is i that is on your last nerve?

I do agree with a lot of what you guys are saying in this thread and am enjoying it immensely, but only on a stickily material level, which is not as of much concern to me as the spiritual, and has little to do with God or the things of God.

First my take on talking about God and truth.

You can not find the truth of the spiritual by your five senses, it is not discovered by the feeling of your hands, it is revealed to the mind by supernatural means.

As far as the bible goes, I do look to it for truth, and believe it is contained in the scriptures, that's what works for me.

Truth itself if there is such a thing, then as I would define it, can only be revealed and discovered by the individual seeking it.

Whenever a person in his heart is moved to draw nearer to the creator God, then that event is what I would describe as a revelation of truth, or a close encounter with what is actually spiritually true verses what is factually materially true.

Not that I'm trying to start a circular conversation about subjective objective truth, I just think if you are going to talk about God then you need to do it, that is as best you can figure, from Gods point of view or an objective view, because if God is real He is the only creature or entity in an objective position to our reality.

But think about this, if God exists then that would be a reality in all things material not just the bible, within all things the truth would be contained and could be revealed to anyone who searches for it at anytime and in anyplace.

There is no reason why a person studding or looking to anything material can't see the same, or even a greater level of truth, than someone who looks and studies the bible to uncover what is authentic to life and living.

Anything formed, made, or created, whether it be the bible, the Koran, the stars or plants, anything with matter and substance must of necessity contain all truth, if God exist in reality.

Now my take on talking about religion.

I find it helpful to divide the word religion into its two primary meanings when trying to have a conversation about it.

Religion part A) Belief in a creator God

Religion part B) a system of worship

Psychologically we are all broken and vulnerable.

None of us have perfect knowledge, or a knowledge of all things necessary at any given moment in time for enlightenments or understandings to occur on any given question confronting us.

We are at risk to a fear of God latent in the knowledge of evil, and the trap of self righteousness and self redemption by our own deeds, laid within the knowledge of good.

For these reasons I believe the word religion should only be used to discuss part B, the systematizing of worship, or the casting of worship, and another word should be used when referencing a belief in a creator.

In essence religion, should be thought and talked about, in terms of a form of government, or an attempt to govern by belief.

You see, the question that is at the heart of the issue of religion is the same as the question of what is true, and that is does a creator God exist in reality?

If that is indeed the case then neither our belief nor our worship have any effect on that actuality, and therefore it is not an issue of religion as the word is defined, but one of our perceptions and of the material substance all things.

[edit on 26-2-2008 by newday]

[edit on 26-2-2008 by newday]

[edit on 26-2-2008 by newday]

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
you aer supposed to have the answers though... no? according to defcon. everything lies in the spiritual guidance of the bible...4

It seems you missed the point. That is not the way we see it but the logic coming in from a critical perspective. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. If we answer you, 'we're threatened.' If we don't answer you, then it is assumed we don't know. You used the very same logical fallacy in this thread. When you got answers, you implied it was because we were scared our beliefs were wrong so we are compelled to defend them. If we do not answer you, then it must be because we do not know. I was pointing out the logical fallacy- not my own opinion.

so far neither of you have offered much at all. and the defensiveness is getting old..

Odd, you complimented me earlier for my answers. But that is not important. It's your use of the word 'defensiveness' that contradicts with your following sentiments:

i have not seen any of the previous questions i posted answered anywhere.

Actually, many of your questions have been answered. So I say once again, you ask for answers, receive them, and then use terminology like 'defensiveness' when you receive an answer. If you do not, you claim you are being ignored.

perhaps it is i that is on your last nerve?

I wouldn't say you as a person but your lack of logic, yes.

reply to post by AshleyD


AshleyD,

I like some of your links, and the things you say, but I am curious to know why you think of yourself as a Christian?

I may be misunderstanding, you could just be answering some of the questions from a Christian perspective, or what you perceive to be a Christian perspective, I am not certain, I could be reading you all wrong.

Do you believe in the traditional religious definition of Christian?

Does that definition describe what you believe of God and the son of God?

If it does could you please explain to me what you think of the idea of the trinity, and life after death, and why those ideas, if you believe in them, are not simply religious notions?

I have read all the info on the subjects from the internet I care to, I find that it is mostly written by people who have little real experience with God, or the things of God, lots of book information and learning, great in the religious world, but very useless in the real life.

Christianity as a religion, from my experience is much like the ideology of conservatism, its attractive intellectually, but putting it into practice has proven to me, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that it doesn't work, when applied it fails miserably every time.

When it comes to the Christian religion I am inclined to believe God is not in it, but that seems to be the case with all religion from what I have found.

What has been your experience?

It seems you missed the point.

I could say the same thing. You and your ally have repeatedly dodged the tougher questions and continued to give multiple explanations of the same answer for a trivilous part of the discussion..

I would say a discussion is an over statement at this point.

Odd, you complimented me earlier for my answers.

that is because you seemed sincere in your providing information for what you believe and that helped me understand where you were coming from in some degree....since then there has ben a lack of feedback and value to some of your "answers"

I suppose for a devout christian as yourself. questions are ok as long as they are questions that can easily be explained by YOUR understanding of the bible.

and even if you do answer them and give accurate evidence supporting the claims of your belief..you what? think there are NO more questions to be answered?....and therefore nothiing is left to be understood? funny how YOUR logic works.

It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. If we answer you, 'we're threatened.' If we don't answer you, then it is assumed we don't know. You used the very same logical fallacy in this thread. When you got answers, you implied it was because we were scared our beliefs were wrong so we are compelled to defend them. If we do not answer you, then it must be because we do not know.

how again are you threatened?
if you do not answer..yes..i suppose it is assumed that you do not know. why else would you not answer? and are you implying that you know everything there is to know on this subject? if this is the case then why are you not teaching at a major institution?

i suppose i have to say this ONE MORE TIME. ...if you are making the claims in a public forum (just as in the ufo forum, or the 9/11 forum or any conspiracy forum) then it is you that must provide evidence and answer the questions. if there are some questions too 'dumb' for you then say it. and explain why they are too 'dumb.'

but i can tell you even with some of the things you have commented on and answered, it is not nearly enough to support the claims being made by the bible. and until someone comes up with some sort of substantial evidence that abraham had a REAL personal relationship with god and GOD made the Jews the 'chosen' people then the rest of the bible will always fall in the category of hyperbolem with a focused agenda....(maybe the ten commandments or the arc of the covenant or noah ark..could help the cause of providing substantial evidence...anything would help really) ..christianity will be considered just anothr religion where the wool is pulled over so many eyes..and seemingly including your own.

Actually, many of your questions have been answered.

actually a few. yes.

answer these (if you can) and you can say "many"...

so god chose abraham and his "people/descendants" (even though semite jews are not a race) as the chosen people. well how did the person who wrote this know? how did he know what people were believing in the Americas (because there is plenty of evidence there was man in the americas 6,000 b.c)? how did he know what people were worshipping in asia and africa?...these places (more than likely) were not even known by ancient man...so why was it that abraham was chosen and not some ancient pre-recorded history indian or african?

the answer given to these questions were pointless and offered nothing.
these are main questions that have a huge impact on the christianity belief system that can't be answered..

a simple "i don't know. i believe this because 'god' says the bible is 100% accurate " would suffice and make sense coming from a fundamentalist such as yourself.

Do you think you would be Christian if you grew up in the middle east as as an arab, read the koran and had all your family who were devout muslims around? Or do you thnk you would be Muslim?

interesting this one was ignored..is this an unreasonable question?

there were others, but i don't feel like going back and trying to quote them. they won't get a response anyway.

anyway, my qualms with the bible do not stem much from the new testament..but most definitely from the old. and of course if the old testament is wrong, then that nullifies much of the new testament. and i think the message the Jesus in the bible gives is a spectacular one...but that doesn't make it divine. and it doesn't make him the 'son of god.'

I wouldn't say you as a person but your lack of logic, yes

i suppose a logic, not tweaked by a 'holey' faith, would do that to some people

Wow. How did I miss this reply? Here we go.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
I could say the same thing. You and your ally have repeatedly dodged the tougher questions and continued to give multiple explanations of the same answer for a trivilous part of the discussion.

Dodged? Hon, I have written novel length replies to you!

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Then there were a few other ones consisting of one to three paragraphs. I would hardly say that is dodging anything when I have broken down every single one of your questions and answered them for you.

And that was all I read of your comment to be honest. Again, I'm bored.

reply to post by newday


Hey, there.

This should answer your question as to what it means to be to be a Christian from my perspective. It is from my own web site so what you are about to read was written by me. Since we're not allowed to give backlinks from to our own websites (ignore the signature tee hee), I am going to break it up into text:

www.... thedevineevidence.com/index_jesus. html

I am a Christian apologist, which is basically the study of Christianity through science, archeology, prophecy, textual exegesis, undesigned coincidences, etc. So, I know why I beleive what I do on an intellectual level. On top of that, I have had some personal experiences, so I also know why I believe what I do on a spiritual level. I typically keep those to myself, though.

I am a 'grace-through-faith Christian.' Meaning, I don't let others get in the way of my personal walk with God. I'm 'old school' meaning, I go strictly by the Bible. Hope that helps answer your question.

reply to post by AshleyD


Could you U2U me a link to your site I would love to see it.

I have spent years involved with the spiritual side dealing with practical realities of the manifestation of Holy Spirit.

I would not call myself a Christian but most people think of me as that.

The working of miracles is what I excel at so I haven't learned much about God from the science angle would you show me some of what you have I would be grateful?



[edit on 29-2-2008 by newday]

reply to post by AshleyD

And that was all I read of your comment to be honest. Again, I'm bored.

that makes two of us ...moving along here. hoping another christian can give it a shot ..I would say nice try, but at the end you just kinda peterd out...?..ran out of answers....? didnt know....?...not sure really....good luck with all that 'logic' of yours

ok. enough with the sarcasm, really though, its been fun!

reply to post by time4chg07

my theory is pretty simple. something created the universe and from then it's constantly evolving. i call it "creavolution" science and religion combined. instead of fighting we should all except the fact that only something as inteligent as a god could create everything but not to it's end result. just like the farmer who plants his seed, it has to grow to reach it's potential.those who believe in a god like it's some guy sitting on a throne planning and plotting our lives are people who want there to be more to life than just be born live and then die. and thats cool but not realistic. we in the grand scheme of things we are not singled out for some special purpose were just a tiny part in the whole thing. as far as science saying there is no god, use your own laws "ie" you can't get something from nothing. if the universe big banged it's way into exsistence then something had to light the match. my advice to you poster is to take it easy on yourself and don't worry so much about it. live life meet a nice girl get married have kids that's what life is all about being part of a family that loves you. where your from who's in charge thats just conversational stuff like who one last nites game. "live long and prosper"

reply to post by time4chg07


just thought id give you a few links that have helped me out in my walk.

In Plain Site

Got Questions

hope they help

I'm just wondering how many people have read this thread?

www.belowtopsecret.com...

It's only 3 pages long but makes some very interesting points and a very different perspective on what the OT and NT are. What do you guys think about it?