my problem with faith and logic

Let me start off by saying I love this site and I hope I can get some good thoughts about this, there are a lot of smart people surfing these pages and I hope some of you can take a break from the really important stuff to reply.

I have had a life long problem balancing out logic/science with faith/religion. Now I'm 27 and still feel no closer to actually having a real point of view when it comes to my religious beliefs.

When I was young, I went to quite a few different churches (baptist, Lutheran, faith assembly, nondenominational bible study), including some that were contradictory to others. I read religious texts for buddhism, Hindu, the book of Mormon, and the bible on my own while I was in middle and high school because I could never throw myself fully into any of those organized religions (especially due to their contradictory nature) and felt that there had to be more. At the same time, I loved science and the brilliant minds of our history, I voraciously lapped up every shred of information I could get my hands on and seriously believed we were on our way to figuring it all out.

My parents stopped going to church when I was 16 and after that I went out and found my own church and continued to go there until I graduated high school. The problem was, I think, I never really believed. I couldn't wrap my head around this god fellow or supreme being and I continue now to have that same problem. I went to church to be around people, to sing, to laugh, and in regards to the Lutherans, have some hot dish I wanted to believe, but I could never actually do it. I felt like I was always looking and still couldn't find it...

I became an atheist when I entered college because I didn't think god existed. Pure and simple, I let science overtake me and I proved god wrong in my mind. Then science failed me. The theories got too tangled and hard for me to understand. I stopped searching for meaning and then I didn't have god, I didn't have science, I just had me..

Now heres the reason I'm posting and one question for you all. Because I couldn't fully understand religion back then, I feel that I turned to science and for many years I fully believed that everything could be explained though it. within the last few years however, I have been turning back towards faith and science as complimentary to each other. I see no problems with this approach in most respects and my faith currently is more of a cannibalized religion custom fit for me than an organized one.

But I'm still thoroughly confused. There is one big problem I have with everything:

Science supports the big bang, basically that every bit of matter in the entire universe started off pressed into this one little dot and then the dot explodes creating the universe.

Religion (well, most religions) says that God created it.

My problem is, I can't logically believe either of those theories. For the big bang, what created that first dot and the empty space? For religion, what created god? Where is the beginning??

Do you see where I'm going with this? Logically, nothing should exist...

Is this just a matter of me not understanding infinity? I mean, I'm all for that, but even then, who creates the infinite?? I cannot grasp the concept of something just existing, and I don't know if that should even really matter to me. I am starting to feel like the happiest I have been was when I had nothing and that's just weird... Why does this bother me so much? I know that no one can completely explain the how and why of the universe with one little theory, but why does the fact that I don't know cause me grief?

I am really looking for meaning here guys, I just would really like to hear some opinions on this and am hoping for some sage advice to ease my troubled mind. If nothing else, please tell me that I just shouldn't question this since it is obviously beyond me and there are more important things I could be doing with my time.

Thanks

Hi thebeard?
Everyone at some time in their lives asks questions regarding a Higher power.
I believe this to be a part of our 'Soul' that thirsts for God.
In regards to how to find the truth, it is totally up to yourself.
Many people will tell you that this is the truth and that this religion is bad and so on........
The choice is up to you to go find and ask as many questions as you can....be it speaking to a priest or whoever you have in mind.

, please tell me that I just shouldn't question this since it is obviously beyond me and there are more important things I could be doing with my time.

I guess I could honestly say that no matter what others or myself can show you or tell you or even point you to a few web pages, it will be your choice of what or who you choose to believe...
Please don't give up what it is you want to know because I believe that if you truly want to find what it is you are looking for, you will find it......sometimes all that is needed is a humble prayer......
The hardest bit comes after you find the truth.
This is when I believe Faith is tested.
I have more to say, but hopefully this is an encouragement for you to do as you are doing.
take care,
helen

The problem I see you have is that you want answers, and you want them now.

You appear to be asking questions that really have no answers, but to say 'don't know'. Unless you take the theistic/deistic route in which you can shove an answer at the end of every unknown, even without reason.

Essentially, these are just god-of-the-gaps answers. And as we know through history, almost always, science will provide a valid natural explanation with time.

The god hypothesis can answer everything without recourse to the actual real-world - whether the sky is blue, green, mauve, or pink and blue polka-dots, god just wanted it that way.

Scientific answers will be more explanatory, leading to mechanistic understanding of the detail.

So, 'what came before the big-bang?' The answer is 'we don't really know'. But scientists are presenting hypotheses, which are testable and will eventually provide an explanation. But then you can regress further, and ask 'what created that?'. Answer: 'don't know'. [and 'created' is a queston begging term anyway]

For theism/deism, 'what came before the big-bang?'. 'Goddidit'. However, when we find an explanation, god will shift like a goalpost to the position before that. Then when you say, 'what came before god', you get 'god'. A moving shifting god always lying in areas of ignorance.

In essence, god = don't know.

In a way, both are semantic stop-signs - 'at this point no more questions'

I have no issue with uncertainty or ambiguity, so 'don't know' is good enough for me, in fact, I embrace it. Better than shoving in a non-answer masquerading as an answer.

As for meaning for your life, science will not provide (unless you partake). That is for you to determine. My life has meaning without the use of shifting non-answers.

[edit on 28-10-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by thebeard
When I was young, I went to quite a few different churches (baptist, Lutheran, faith assembly, nondenominational bible study), including
(..)
and then I didn't have god, I didn't have science, I just had me..

I truly relate to your experience – although for me it seems like I believed in SOMETHING or SOMEONE before I first went to Sunday school – imaginary friend was how I initially defined it, but at any rate….

…it was something REAL and I didn’t find it at church. And I know, now, that what is in me is in everyone – and science helps explain the processes and prove the observations but is no more the answer than religion is…nothing ONE-sided is the answer to anything.

within the last few years however, I have been turning back towards faith and science as complimentary to each other. I see no problems with this approach in most respects and my faith currently is more of a cannibalized religion custom fit for me than an organized one.

Cannibalized? Surely you don’t eat your fellow worshipers?
I know that’s not how you meant it but I can’t grasp it.

Eclectic? Independent? Not in need of pious overseers? Me neither!!!
Although I tend toward vegetarian with dairy…

Science supports the big bang, basically that every bit of matter in the entire universe started off pressed into this one little dot and then the dot explodes creating the universe.

Yes…BUT they can’t go ALL the way back…the math will not allow them to!

Religion (well, most religions) says that God created it.

Which relieves us of the burden of proof! And causes disdain for empirical evidence!

My problem is, I can't logically believe either of those theories. For the big bang, what created that first dot and the empty space?

That bends my mind! But I wonder about it all the time. Who knows? Perhaps not even GOD knows or perhaps remembers. My thinking on it is this – from a purely metaphysical perspective:
If no one remembers the beginning then no one can plan the end.

For religion, what created god?

Calvinism and 20th century American pulp fiction!

Where is the beginning??

Swallowing up the end. Sounds cheeky but I’m actually serious. Think Oroborus – think circle – unbroken and continuous.

The world is a sphere, not a plane.

Half of it always lit up and the other half in the dark.

The end of right now is the start of what’s next and the manifestation of what came before…

Do you see where I'm going with this? Logically, nothing should exist...

Oh yeah….I travel this road almost daily…and so I think about BEING…and by thinking I AM.

Is this just a matter of me not understanding infinity?

Who can understand infinity? Nevertheless, there are those of us who never stop trying.

I am starting to feel like the happiest I have been was when I had nothing and that's just weird... Why does this bother me so much?

You mean like material wealth and possessions? responsibilities ?? (read: ball and chain prison bars)

I know that no one can completely explain the how and why of the universe with one little theory, but why does the fact that I don't know cause me grief?

I don’t know – it does me, too.

I am really looking for meaning here guys, I just would really like to hear some opinions on this and am hoping for some sage advice to ease my troubled mind.

Don't let what drives you impede you from being exactly who you are. If your mind is troubled, seek knowledge.

If your thinking is limiting itself, cut down on your daily allowance.

Do and think and seek and read whatever you want...
...believe whatever fits the moment -- but truly BELIEVE it -- let it go when you outgrow it.

Your beliefs are not for the purpose of defining you but instead are meant to guide you...like a scavenger hunt.

If nothing else, please tell me that I just shouldn't question this since it is obviously beyond me and there are more important things I could be doing with my time.

Thanks

What MORE worthwhile intention could your spend your precious time on other than in search of the truth? Just to know…and to share…’knowing the unknown’ defeats 50% of all fear – love takes care of the rest.

Nothing is unknowable and no one is unlovable.

I suggest that you are in a catch-22 fix. Science will not give you the answers. I don't suggest that you not study science. In fact, I highly reccommend that you find out as much about it as you can. What you will find is that there are large gaping holes that they can't explain. The Cambrian explosion and the the Big Bang itself are both mysteries outside the scope of science.

So let's take the route where we ponder the existance of a creator. This would easily fill in the gaps but with one problem. This creator doesn't explain everything to us the way we like it. We want to know all right now. Where did God come from? Did something create God? I submit that we're not ready for these answers yet. Some things require faith. Trust without full understanding. If you're willing to take this route you have to let go of some securities.

Finally, I would like to point out that at 27 you'll probably find out all the answers to your questions within the next 50 years. You won't have to wait for science to to invent anything new or develop some new technology.

Great advice from queenannie.

You know what I admire about you, thebeard? After so many years of searching you still keep an open mind and allow for all possibilities to influence you. So many people don't feel or find God immediately, so they dismiss him completely.

Of course I believe in God. I know for a fact he is real. His word became flesh and he walked amongst a very lucky generation, who in turn tortured and killed him, nevertheless he is alive. I think it is important to respect an atheist point of vieiw. I'll admit I don't really deal with them or interact with them on the board, and I just assume they haven't ever experienced extraordinary things/events over a course of years, that nudge them on to the ultimate truth.

Most everyone looks for the truth and not many really find it. A vast majority believe on faith alone and they are so content with that. Then there is a group of people who diligently toil until they mentally and physically find that they were looking for. There is a group who looked and gave up way too soon and then there are those who could really care less.

From my point of view you are on the right path. My advice would be to keep an open mind, keep in mind you were a spiritual creature before you were a physical being, that Jesus preached peace and love and that the kingdom of that love that you wish to find is within you.

[edit on 28-10-2007 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by dbates
The Cambrian explosion and the the Big Bang itself are both mysteries outside the scope of science.

Not at all. Science is perfectly equipped to answer these issues. Indeed, it is the only method equipped to do so, nothing else will.

Science's scope is natural world and its phenomena. And both of these are within the 'scope' of science.

Hi the beard/

I suggest that you are in a catch-22 fix. Science will not give you the answers. I don't suggest that you not study science. In fact, I highly reccommend that you find out as much about it as you can. What you will find is that there are large gaping holes that they can't explain. The Cambrian explosion and the the Big Bang itself are both mysteries outside the scope of science.

Exactly as Dbates has said!
I would study science and ask questions based on what science has to say about life!
You will find that many scientists have an actual belief in a higher power when it comes to the 'big bang'

helen

I used to be an agnostic and couldn't believe in creationism because of "all the evidance" Science cannot prove that God or creator exists. It requires faith.

If God created the universe, why coudn't he create a mature one? the evidence of "past" is enough to convince those who are not believers, yet it takes a leap of faith to believe someone could create that... a perfect being with no faults who just is

some might say that searching for a higher power is proof of how were were created as spiritual beings.

Thank you all for your responses, I really didn't know what to expect when I posted this since I do know that this is one of those deep, perhaps unanswerable questions.

I'm glad to hear the words of encouragement from you all.

Melatonin, I see where you are coming from since I as well have never wanted to "insert god here" simply to explain away things that cannot as yet be explained.

I don't feel that this is where I am coming from since to me, the existence of god simply piles on more questions. I think I asked the question of a beginning just because that is one of those things I cannot explain through any means and as such it is what keeps me up at night. I applaud your ability to not let it get to you, but I am not at that point anymore. Perhaps you are right in the sense that I want answers and I want them now and looking at it from that perspective, it does seem a bit childish, but I am honestly looking for something real in a world of the unreal because everywhere I look I keep seeing that we should not exist but we do, and for some reason I just can't accept that.

When I was a child it was a heck of a lot easier to buy everything without question, now, as I said I'm just confused and looking for meaning. I have a good job, a great kid, and a decent living, but something just seems amiss.


Queenannie, I think you wrote down just about everything I was hoping to hear when I wrote this thread. If nothing else, it validates my thought that I'm not the only one who has been at this point.

To answer the question of cannibalized (possibly not the best choice of words, but that's how it feels sometimes) I've assimilated bits from many of the world religions and added a lot of my own thoughts into it. I don't have a diety and I'm still torn on any sort of intelligent design simply because chaos is also beauty. I think that everything could have been born out of pure accident, even if it was initiated by some divine hand. Evolution and the big bang could have been created by the being that others use to disprove those theories. Or there may just not have been any outside influence and everything just happened...

Unfortunately, I think that my own set of beliefs is what is causing me issues here. Since I don't claim to have it all figured out and I don't expect others to, I've been a lifetime flip-flopper and I don't really know where to turn for guidance and support, I know there are others out there like me, but I have yet to find very many of them. Plus, I have always enjoyed the friendship of different people with different beliefs, and many times talking religion has strained relationships to the breaking point so I do tend to avoid the subject occasionally. I feel like I will always be a lone wanderer and I hope I can find my match someday. I can believe in any god or no god depending on how you describe it, but where does that put me? I am adaptable and I think that is what keeps me from going full force into any structured belief.

To answer the question about the happiest I have been, yeah, that actually was about it. I threw myself to humanity. There were no boundaries (except stealing, killing, the biggies) and I definitely committed a few of the seven sins... But I felt happy because I wasn't looking for meaning, I merely existed.

A friend of mine just passed along a lecture about addiction by Robina Courtin, an Australian Buddhist, that talks about that. She states that most Americans sense of happiness is a Buddhists sense of hell, or something to that effect. Sort of having everything you desire and yet still being hollow... That is sort of where I find myself now, I know I don't need to answer the questions I have immediately, but I do feel hollow. I am not everything I could be and I need to grow somehow.

If anyone is interested in the lecture you can find it here

www.fpmt.org...

I recommend it.

dbates, yes, I think you are right as well, and as much as I don't want to admit it, I am not sure I am ready for an answer myself. My faith has always been wavering. Perhaps because of the teachers I have had, perhaps it's just sceptisism. The only pastor I ever really connected with ended up in an institution for a while when he lost his faith and freaked out so I know it can happen to everyone. I have a hard time believing what I cannot see and even though I want to believe, I cannot cross that line and fall into it full force. I hope that with time, I will become more comfortable in not knowing or will find a belief that fits me so well, it has to be true (at least to me ) whether I end up in either or both camps remains to be seen.

Also to Helen, Myrtales, and Jehosephat, thank you very much for the encouragement, I will continue to keep an open mind and thank you for taking the time to reassure me that I'm on the right path. This site and ATS are actually the catylist that sent me back into science and faith, guess I'll just have to hang out here a bit longer.


TheBeard

Yes the 'Way' of the Buddha and the 'Way' which was manifested in Christ, too - the same way - the only way - one light and one way - but many many footsteps in an uncounted number of diverse winding paths....

When we all get to the same place, in the end (whatever THAT means), wherever that may actually BE...well, then some of us are going to feel a bit foolish - well...actually...most of us! But we will laugh at ourselves together - thinking about how we couldn't see the forest for the trees in the days of our youth...

Or something like that! I just know this ain't all there is - but we all share what there is to share!

There is truth which is the BONE of everything - the flesh covering the bones are delusion, illusion, and diversionary tactics - along with some filler. Which ever bone it happens to be - the marrow and the calcium are the same in all bones! Yet having no need to compare!

Maybe the only truly dis- stressing thing in your life is your attachment to your opinions - that is a Buddhist maxim and one I have experienced as a true one! That might be why the subject of material lack or excess is part of this discussion...

When wishes are few, the heart is happy. When desire ends, there is peace.

I have lost everything (more or less) three times altogether! And I am only 39. I lost everything until it no longer caused me stress, anxiety, or fruitless fretting to wonder if I would somehow 'lose everything' to fire, illness, catastrophe, etc....

I certainly didn't think that was the way to overcome stress in everyday life - seems backward but actually it is the only way we learn how to detach ourselves from our possessions. That is, by losing those fears until losing them is no longer a fear we carry every day.

Now the only thing that concerns me to the point of planning or pondering is the welfare of my 2 dogs and 1 cat - other than that, my 'stuff' is expendable. It is just more of the same stuff of which we are made, too - in forms that vary greatly - but it all boils down to the same Periodic table of Elements - domestic cosmic chemistry is how our ingredients are arranged throughout! We truly are connected and it doesn't really even matter if we call that connection by a name or an -ism or with a sign -

-if it comes from being the collective creation of MIND's great imagination -

- or if it came from two spots of rosy mold on a wooden stump overgrown with grape vines:

LIFE is LIFE and we all share it! Any way you look at it, it is a vibrant enduring MIRACLE! IMO, that is.

I know those aren't 'answers' - I could share with you every single tidbit of answer that I have so far collected - complete with links and the odd small database, as well....but what fun is that? Seekers of truth seek to DISCOVER truth where it lies - under everything that is!

But it doesn't matter if your understandings/beliefs change every time the wind changes direction - if that is what you truly know at that moment in time, then it is truth - and as you learn more your truth will fill out and mature and it might seem as if it is such a mutable thing it is blasphemy to call it truth - but it is your truth and all truths will somehow lead to a massive truth compliance so just live it!

If it causes problems for you when it comes to discussing or justifying your own convictions to the skeptical audiences of those that a very different flavor of truth...then thrown them the bird! With an affectionate smile, that is; keep it real!

Your truth is yours, not anyone else's - although they all come from the same source - part of that is yours alone.

Your own truth; and you can wear it either inside your clothes, or outside. I wore my own inside me for more than 30 years - and I think that it is often the public threshing of religion and spiritualism that causes such mutilation! Such things of such personal import should be protected in both freedoms as well as privacy! IMO, that is! But I will defend such for both myself and others!

If you ever wish to be religious cannibals. in private...feel free to holler at me anytime!

I used to say, quite a bit, that there were not 2 commandments, but three:

LOVE GOD
LOVE your neighbor AS YOURSELF
MIND your OWN damn business!

Sometimes it is easier to love one's neighbor from a DISTANCE! Not always but there is always the odd occasion when oil and water come together.

So the rest is details, right? Even trigonometry is 'just details' in the field of Quantum astrophysics!

So mostly I just push Commandment #2:
LOVE your neighbor as you love SELF.

And I am sure people hate me for my incessant LOVE propaganda - and PEACE too - no doubt I am all that epitomizes that which is called anti-Christ , if that is how it is defined by the followers of the church (and it DOES seem to be the prevalent opinion in Christianity these days!)

So to that I say - so mote it be!

Oh yeah, both the DEVIL and GOD asked me to remind you and everyone else to remember to always

MAKE LOVE NOT WAR



♥

Do you see where I'm going with this? Logically, nothing should exist...

Right, you're exactly right. Therefore, you have to go with something that isn't necessarily logical in the definition that would be used by say, top scientists.

If nothing should exist according to logic, and we get logic from God, then obviously something very illogical took place, or at the least, unusual.

I really think people are steered by what they genuinely want the outcome to be. Atheists, often times may not WANT there to be a God. And Christians, often times they dont want to accept the notion of there not being a God for example, or that Jesus was his son and not God himself.

The sad truth is, we could just be some alien race's little experiment, all this science.. and the cosmos.. could all just be one elaborate sheet pulled over our eyes. No wonder it isn't logical, because its not true! It's a fallacy.. a fake .. something to make us think it is this way when it is not truly that way.

And death is the removal of the sheet pulled over our eyes, so sheet over the eyes equals living a physical reality with the dimensions we all share. No one really knows what theyre gonna "see" when the rug gets pulled from their eyes. And if they knew 100% that they were saved and going to heaven, heaven would be pointless, and God would have made a grave error. you wont find God being scientifically proven to exist any time soon because if that occurred it would be a grave error on God's part, and God does not make grave errors!

Originally posted by queenannie38
Yes the 'Way' of the Buddha and the 'Way' which was manifested in Christ, too - the same way - the only way - one light and one way - but many many footsteps in an uncounted number of diverse winding paths....

Big up yourself annie, you're wise beyond your years.

Well if God kept creating God and so on, then where does it end? It has to end with God. sole.

Now, are minds young man are not able to know these truths until death. But many miracles have been worked and his works are made manifest in our bodies, the creation, the complexity, the deepness, the miracles which I have seen and still do.

Not small miracles either.

But anyways read about the girl in my sig, and keep searching and it will be opened to you.

peace.

I think what Helen said first was right, if you have a spirit to find the truth you will find, it.

I think what your problem might of been is going to churches to find your faith. Not all of us could go to church and find God, some had to expereince life and want to find the truth, then the truth found them. God said even a little faith for him, and he will show you his ways. Try haveing a little faith, and not going to church but experence life around you. I not saying changing your day, but by haveing a little faith, and God will put things in front of you. But you have to have a open eye to those things being shown you.