God Bless the Atheists, I love you guys (and girls)

You know, I am not joking about this thread. At first, when I first started talking and debating here, a few atheists got on a nerve or two, and some heads were butted, hopefully no feelings hurt. But as time progresses, I must say, you folks are mighty intelligent, you do your research, you're clean headed straight shooting thinkers, and your "pessimistic until proven otherwise" approach, believe it or not, resonates strongly in me, as I am negative in day to day outlook on what to expect from life so when the unexpected positive pops up, its a grand surprise of joy. And I never get let down..

So I can relate, and believe me, I think you guys/girls are quite logical. In fact, I think the reason you don't believe is divine providence. Yes, thats right, I think God has hardened your hearts on purpose. Why? So that your beautiful human intellect can let loose and seperate the boys from the men when it comes to:

A) who really truly believes
B) whos the real hypocrites
C) your arguments are all sound and hard to beat
D) only someone guided by God can accurately debate you.

And D) is important to me, because I feel that God has hardened your hearts for this very reason. To be the opposition so that the word will get spoken, not the easy word, not John 3:16, but digging deep into the thoughts of it all and trying to figure it all out. It's hard as all get out. And you are the ones who make it that way.

So in essence, you usher in the true viable word of the Lord for the people to read. For the believers who are down on their faith, for the confused people, these types.

You are the Yang to my Yin, and without either of us, I feel this place would be a pretty crappy one, with little conversation.

To keep a cool head regardless of whats said, and to make friends with the opposition so that you have a common understanding despite differences and actually like each other's conversations, it must be for a reason. It's all in the divine wisdom. I love you guys.

Especially Mystery Babylon the Great, I mean MM .. ROFLEZ .. you know I'm playing, you're are excellent!

[edit on 10/14/2007 by runetang]

OK, runetang, I'll take this as a compliment, even if you are saying that god guides me. You know what I would say about THAT if I was going to say anything at all.

Anyway, you've surprised me too. I figured I'd end up on your Foe list one of these days.

hey what about us agnostics?

So, considering that I will never turn to Christ and I will never worship God even on my deathbed, considering that God made me this way, will I go to hell, runetang?

I think God has hardened your hearts on purpose.

so does that mean god purposely created me to go hell, what a nice caring god you have there........lol

god isn't omnipotent enough to harden my heart.

Originally posted by SilentGem
So, considering that I will never turn to Christ and I will never worship God even on my deathbed, considering that God made me this way, will I go to hell, runetang?

Nope. Even disbelievers won't goto hell, unless they've sinned extensively and without remorse.

Each man is judged by his works, that is the judgement. Not by his beliefs, his works. So if a man does not believe in God, but is a good man, lives morally, and accomplishes good things in his lifetime that perhaps helped other people, showing compassion for others, he will be judged to be good and enter the Kingdom.

That is the literal interpretation and no Christian can debate me on that, the literal words say all man will be judged by the works of his hands.

God knows that its hard to believe in God, being that God can't fully reveal itself or else the whole Creation (read: Existence) would be blown. This is why God can speak to some easier than others, because some are more receptive. The goal is to steer as many people as possile into the right direction, which is doing good deeds and works, not necessarily worshipping God.

Plenty of people believe in Karma, as do I. So if someone screws over everyone they've ever encountered, and is a bitter, evil spirited person out to intentionally hurt others for the fun or satisfaction of it, clearly he has fallen into the seduction of power over other man, which comes from Satan, who wanted to control all men and the entire Creation. These are those who in my opinion "go to hell".

But I dont believe in the Biblical Hell. My Hell is having your soul destroyed after judgement, if not destroyed, taken apart and reabsorbed into the original source of all souls and creation and matter, and physics and the laws of it, and the periodic table, all the stars in the sky, you get the picture.

You see, theres a conspiracy going on in the Christian world. Even in the Churches Satan works dilligently in the hearts of men. There has been an overall conspiracy, hatched by the Church (Catholic), to subjugate women into lower roles in society, to make them of less stature, to keep them from the most secret knowledge; to keep them dumb, to deny them education. We see this carried on in Islamic tradition, but that is more of just a primitive "I'm the man b----, do what I say or I'll have you honor killed for disobedience".

But not just women are the point of the conspiracy, it is also to deflect the masses from true salvation. So that only the "elect" will get it. But they are terribly wrong and will see what happens to them after they die, when they see every single thing they did which negatively affected another, and after the film, will be taken out of the presence of the Lord.

Incase you're wondering, it is quite naive to assume that all of the writers of the Bible were each perfectly correct in everything they were "told" or "shown" by God. Sure, alot of it is true, but some of it had to have been coincidental, hallucination, drug-induced, fasting-induced, you name it. So then, when trying to describe what happens to "bad people" when they die, they came up with Hell, in my opinion, which is just a bad take on Jewish Sheol.

Sheol, which I've mentioned numerously in the past weeks, is literally translated into "under the ground" or "the grave". It is the "purgatory" of the Jewish religion. But you are not aware, awake, or in the presence of the Lord during Sheol. And even good people supposedly go to Sheol, except for the most bestest people, like martyrs. Sheol is best described as an unaware state of sleep without dreaming, awaiting the Resurrection. Then all are judged, and the good go to Heaven, and the bad get thrown in the lake of fire. Lakes of fire burn stuff up, and that is symbolic of burning the soul up, destroying it, taking it out of existence.

[edit on 10/15/2007 by runetang]

Originally posted by runetang
Nope. Even disbelievers won't goto hell, unless they've sinned extensively and without remorse.

I thought the new testament explicitly said that you must accept jesus as your savior to be saved?

Hi runetang. some interesting theories there but it clearly states in the bible that the only way to the father is through Jesus Christ and not through works alone.
As a matter of interest what is your churchmanship?
jon

Originally posted by The Phantom
hey what about us agnostics?

I'm not sure if I believe in agnostics. We'll never know for sure if this group of individuals actually exists. If they do exist, I'd still say "God bless them" anyways. Of course my saying this would bring up a whole paradox of issues for them. If they were bless then it would be proof God existed, and if not it would be proof that God didn't exist. To avoid this confusion, it's just easier to pertend that we can't know of agnostics exist.

Runetang, to an extent, you have a point. As someone who believes that everything happens according to God's plan, I'd say that atheists probably serve a purpose. Albeit, I think they do it somewhat unwittingly.

I thought the new testament explicitly said that you must accept jesus as your savior to be saved?

You would be 100% correct....

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Knowing Jesus

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


but there are so many ways one can interpret john 14:6 that it isn't 100% correct. from a theological standpoint the bible is actually quite contradictory on how one gets into heaven

You are free to "interpret" it anyway that you wish to...

As I have stated time and again to you, it is your soul, not mine... Do as you wish...

To me, it is perfectly clear... But you are not me, so to coin a valley girl phrase in response to you... !Whatever!

How you choose to interpret this, live or believe will not effect my life in anyway, so feel free to see it as you wish...

(Just so you know what I am saying and do not interpret my words wrong, the definition of what I am saying is.... I don't care)

Now that was funny....

Semper

Originally posted by jon1
Hi runetang. some interesting theories there but it clearly states in the bible that the only way to the father is through Jesus Christ and not through works alone.
As a matter of interest what is your churchmanship?
jon

I am of the Arian sect, founded in the 3rd Century by Presbyter Arius, who was taught under Saint Lucian's tutelage, along with Eusebius of Nicomedia, all three of which were major figureheads in the early "Opposition" of the early Church in Constantinople, before and during the Nicaean Councils and the Nicene Creed's writing.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

So I guess you can call me a Heretic. Much in the tradition of Copernicus and Martin Luther, and all the other brilliant men who were either jailed and/or killed because their concept of Christianity didn't fit the particular version required.

I believe that the way to heaven is through Jesus, sure, through his teachings. Not through blind worship. He taught peace, harmony, seeing through deception, being courteous, being faithful, being patient, being humble, being yourself, knowing yourself, and knowing God, within your capacity. He commonly referred to the Father.

The Church, in my opinion, went wrong when Constantine the Roman decreed that God the Father and Jesus "the Son" were of the same essence, which is a fancy term for being or spirit, or soul. So Jesus was the walking God of mankind in a man, with superpowers. This is how they believe. I disagree, as did Arius, and Lucian, and Eusebius, and for good reason!

Yeshua was born a man. He grew up a man. He was anatomically a man. He could feel pain. He could choose to sin. He could feel joy, guilt, remorse, every human emotion, and even the human imperfections like insecurity im sure. He was a man! This is the wisdom of God!!

A MAN!

Homo-sapien

Born, lives, dies. Made of flesh; a vessel of a soul.

So therefore, Yeshua did not exist since the before creation as the Catholics claim, he was a created being. If God made us in God's likeness, then he made Yeshua in his identicalness. But being identical, you still have your twin, and you are seperate, not the same being.

Yeshua was sent to usher in the word of the lord and I do believe he was the Messiah. I believe God sent him to Earth to set the stage for the rest of this drama we all are a part of everyday. Look at how he shook the Earth to its very core, foundation, a simple human man, favored by God and created by God, capable to channel God's power, commonly referred to as the "Holy Spirit" although it is NOT an entity in itself and the Trinity in my opinion is Hogwash.

That is my Churchmanship. Hereticism? No, in my opinion of course, I think I am digging at Jesus' true being and teaching. But .. thats just me.

Mankind has made Jesus out to be quite a character over the past 2,000 years, I don't think he was quite the way people imagine him. More humble, peaceful, pacifistic, wise, gnostic.


[edit on 10/15/2007 by runetang]

One more thing about hardening of hearts by God to fulfill his will:

I call into evidence the Book of Exodus, where God blatantly and purposefully hardened the heart of Pharaoh to deny Moses, even after communicating with Moses in the 'burning bush' (of caneh bos'm) and filling him in on the task at hand

The question is why.

Clearly here, this is God's will to harden Pharaohs heart. This is so the plagues can come to pass, and Moses can rise to power through his prophecies coming true. This is what authoritized him with the Jewish Exiles as the Great "Commander" of the March to the Holy Land out of Egypt.

Do you really think Pharaoh went to hell, just for being God's own admitted pawn, I mean it clearly says "God hardened his heart" over and over in the Book, if you haven't read the Bible lately.

Did Moses not go on, with his brother Aaron, to basically found what is today's modern Judaism?

If your Jewish by ethnicity, and your last name is Cohen or a different spelling of it, chances are you are related by blood to the Biblical Aaron. According to Jewish Law, only descendants of Aaron may be Temple Priests. And to this day it is this way.

Also, you really have to ask yourself, would Jesus the MAN who actually lived and walked this Earth and was nailed to a tree for a spectacle, would that Jesus, the real Jesus, would he want you to blindly worship his soul, now sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven, preparing to reap the harvest, so sayeth John of Patmos, writer of Revelation?

I wouldn't even want you to blindly worship my soul after I die, and I can be cocky sometimes. So surely Jesus wouldn't want you to be doing that, he'd want you to learn exactly what he taught Mary Magdelene and the Twelve Apostles. And thats what its all about, in my opinion.

[edit on 10/15/2007 by runetang]

Hell will be a complete deprivation of grace, which is love.

the key will be suffering. Only souls who have found grace with God can handle suffering well, I know from experience.

Rinetag.

Have you also noticed the ones who will not believe nomatter the proof?

I am related to one of those type.

They will always (play) the advocate without any sincerity to the miracles people read about because they dont want God to exist.

Not all are like this but some. I notice this instantly. And its probably 90% of them

they say stuff like.

" fairy tale"

" Flying spegghtiie monster in the sky "

" prayer is false since God is "

" Deluded minds for control purposes "


You see any sincerity in those?

no. they have made their minds up, they know who they are, and they dont want truth or miracles or faith or worship or putting themselves below something ect..

Not all are like this though.

Like one time I posted about body parts.

(Any) soul in the universe knows that the breast and buttocks were created for specific reasons.

This is an amazing proof of creator, antbody can see it.

But the deepest things you post here fly over their heads like an airplane over a runway.

Some who stay silent may say to themselves.

Wow, maybee this stuff was created for a reason, and give things a chance.

some wont.

peace.

My aunt told me that only those who believes in Jesus would gain the access to the heaven.

But it is perhaps that the guy who never hear of Jesus during his whole life and barely do anything bad might be sent to the kindom ,too.

[edit on 16-10-2007 by nanoha]

ima proud athiest

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
Have you also noticed the ones who will not believe nomatter the proof?
I am related to one of those type.
they say stuff like.
" fairy tale"
" Flying spegghtiie monster in the sky "
" prayer is false since God is "
" Deluded minds for control purposes "
You see any sincerity in those?
Like one time I posted about body parts.

(Any) soul in the universe knows that the breast and buttocks were created for specific reasons.

This is an amazing proof of creator, antbody can see it.

If your proof for god is "breasts and buttocks" no wonder no one will be convinced...they are the result of evolution.

Most atheists will believe if they see proof, you just don't have it that's all.

Originally posted by DarkSide
they are the result of evolution.

Most atheists will believe if they see proof, you just don't have it that's all.

evolution which is a creation by God.

well you have to admit that we are kind of screwed over here in my corner, it's impossible to prove God is as real as you or I on purpose, by God. :\

sometimes in my short sightedness I say, I wish God would just "come down and say" hey I am real, but I know it would just throw the entire concept of existence that we all share to a degree, it would throw that on the ground and break it into a million pieces.

What's the point of growing a plant if you automatically know the exact height it will reach, the exact color of the flower, and the lifespan of it? Much less try to appreciate the beauty, once it grows to its peak it gets ripped right out of the ground?

Creation is growing. You know that the universe is 'expanding', well replace the word universe with creation for this point. And then you will as I see.

[edit on 10/16/2007 by runetang]