Ahmadinejad at it again

reply to post by Malichai


Please refrain yourself of making assumption about myself, if I we're to make an assumption about you, it will be that you are fed with propaganda from the arab side of the issue that US and Israel are evil and all arab nations are the only victims.

Show me your figures that indicates all the contributions that the so called generous Arabs nations have made, that are more than what I presented to you, I gave you facts not propaganda and that's all you gave me as a reply.

I don't understand, if we give money is bad and if we don't is even worst, my point was that the US gives more to Palestinians than their neighbors inluding Iran, so what I would like to see is for M.A. to stop giving money to terrorist and start helping the people.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by Bunch]

Originally posted by Malichai

And I oppose the others. But which one, other than Israel, is occupying foreign lands?...

How do you see the future? Does it involve rubbing the temples while humming or do you have a device. I wish Equal Rights on them all....

My logic is not flawed. You cannot read my mind and we have a very long way to go before you could see my perspective.
....

They would be the same.

Sigh, lets try again, If Israel were to go to the 1949 border as you suggest, would they still be occupying foreign lands? You keep dancing around this. Why have two states if not for the Religious differences in the two components?

Let me try to clarify the point I am trying to make. Is Israel allowed in your view of things, to exist as a Jewish state within the 1949 borders in peace with it's neighbors. You don't get to dictate the form of governments in the both States. It's kinda a yes or no question. You never directly answer this and start doing a two step like someone else we are talking about.

I explained that Hamas, which supposedly is half or the legitamate government of the Palestinians, state in their charter that their government is to be an Islamic one. Look it up if you doubt me.

Your logic is flawed, first you say a two State solution then you say each state would be the same in government and that Israel could not be a Jewish State yet you seem to imply that it would be alright for the Palestinians to have a Islamic form of government if THEY chose to. Why have two states if they basically would be the same? I seriously am not following your thought process on this.

Originally posted by Malichai

Basic laws are not equal to a constitution. Any other nation in the world with Basic laws is either still occupied or they had a referendum.

Basically Malachi I disagree with you. I know you are the one person on this site that demands a constitution and also makes excuses why other legitimate nations that do not have a constitution are not at fault. First, a nation does not require a constitution to be a nation or state. Second, it is obvious that you feel Israel is totally in the wrong even with their basic laws. I respect your views but even if Israel is still in the interim with their basic laws we need to let them progress towards a constitution as they see fit since it is their nation.

When I talked about how the British created these countries under the Palestine mandate the border areas were basically set. This should give Israel equal legitimacy to the other countries around them even though they are still in the interment stage of a constitution, but the goals of most of the countries around them is to see the Jewish national home disappear and that area becomes Arab lands.

Now in Israel there are large groups of Christians and Arabs living and prospering, but the Gaza strip is a different story. First question is who really controls or owns this area? Egypt for decades govern it by military occupation until the 1967 war when it became Israel-occupied territory from winning the war, but up to this time Egypt would not give the residence of that area Egyptian status in anyway. After Egypt renounced all territorial claims Israel had it govern by their own military until 2005 when they gave the administration of it over to the Palestinian Authority while also moving all Jewish settlers out.

Of course Israel still maintains strict control over the land, sea and sky around it today for there is still heavy conflict between the different factions there and against Israel. But what do you do with it? They could prosper with cooperation with the Israel government if they only stop fighting and work towards prosperity and not some kind of independences for a 25 by 5 mile strip of land. Egypt did not consider any type of independence in the 300 years they controlled it. Nor did they even want to give the refugees Egyptian citizenship, so now we are dealing with what is basically land legally owned by Israel that was once owned by Egypt for 300 years with a million Palestine living there that want nothing short of independences.

So what do we do Malachi?



[edit on 8-10-2007 by Xtrozero]

Perhaps I'm a bit slow or missing something, but I'd be grateful if someone could point me to a link or some info which indicates Israel has opened itself to FULL IAEA inspections of ALL its facilities, declared or not...

Lets face it, those not declared do exist, they've been sniffed out by various nations except Israel chooses not to fess up...

Don't get me wrong, I have an open mind on this...But I would honestly like to be pointed toward RECENT (last 2 yrs) information that indicated Israel has opened up ALL its nuclear installations and sites to IAEA inspections...

Thanks and Peace

reply to post by Rilence



This should shed some light on the subject for you.

www.iaea.org...

Iran is a signer of the NPT while Israel is not, there are infact two different sets of standards, actually three when you take into account the original Nuclear powers. Original Nuclear Club members, Signers of the NPT and non signers of the NPT all are treated differently by the IAEA.

You are correct Israel does not allow IAEA inspections of it's Dimona facility, but does have relations with the IAEA.

As Iran is a signer of the NPT they are bound by IAEA rules, inspections ect.

Really, here's just one, so you're wrong

www.arabsforisrael.com...

If some of you can't translate what the iranian president is saying, then you have no right to question what our media reports.

If you all think our government is so evil then why live here?

Originally posted by docklands
How far do you want to go back in terms of who is the "legal" or "first" inhabitants of a particular piece of land?

USA out of America, yall should all go back to where you come from, and that's Africa, the biginning of homosapiens.

Iran is rattling the cages so much because he knows the west is weak. We are no longer united. Nato is a joke, England is pulling out of Iraq, America is alone and pre-occupied with domestic anti-war and Iraq war movements.

They are trying to be the ideological leader for the Islamic movements. What the-shorty-napoleon-complex-ahmadenijad is saying is what every Islamist are thinking inside their head.

There is not one muslim you talk to will want Israel exist as a state.

*SNIP*

Mod Edit: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 5/10/2007 by Mirthful Me]

The Israeli reactor at Dimona is leaking - and is very much there (check google earth ) They have never allowed the IAEA anywhere near there (and would kill them if they tried) so really should be considered a rogue nation


but they are not.

yes thats right - they have never allowed the IAEA anywhere near Dimora - they see the Head of the IAEA (an egyption) as the enemy, so therefore the IAEA are the enemy.


You MUST sperate Religion and the Government when dealing with Israel - something the Israeli government do not want you to do.

Some people are so damn stupid... If u really think Iran is a not treat to America. Watch this video and see for you self. These people want us dead. Yea, our gov. piss them off before, but man get over it that was many decades ago, and the people in power then are gone, so try moving on. youtube.com...

reply to post by pavil


here's my two penneth worth.

People have justified israels position as a nation in the middle east effectively as it is there rightful land. by saying this we are going back 2000+ years to a claim on land. if this is the context we are discussing then we may as well still claim that greece rules the whole gulf region, that the mongols still rule china and that rome rules the whole of europe. it simply isnt relevant in today's times. since the world became 'civilised' and i use the term loosely, borders have remained consistant and the spoken word has started to overcome the sword in dealing with international issues.
Israel as a nation was created as much out of guilt as anything, after the holocaust and the war was over a chunk of land belonging to a perceivably weak nation which happened to include the spiritual home of judaism(sp?) was taken and given to the jewish peoples as some form of compensation. Ok this was traditionally the jewish homeland but it was hundreds of years ago, we cannot just claim it back whenever we wish because of the so called historical aspect of it.
A little known fact was that in the rebuilding discussions after world war 2 one suggestion was to leave germany derelict and put the whole country to pasture. if this had been the case we may well have ended up with a european israel and the subsequent problems what would come with it. Have the problem on your own doorstep or move it out of sight and out of mind? it wasnt a particulary tough choice for a war torn continent such as europe at the time.

reply to post by james24nottm


The problem is not if Israel is a legtimate nation or not, is what are we going to do to end the bloodshed, what is the realistic approach to do that?

A problem was created by our international leaders in the past and now we that live in the present have to deal with that problem. The land grabbing issue was not created by Israel, the international community enable this to happen, then the Israel government became part of the problem. I think that at some point the international community should give some form of reparations to the people that has been affected by this.

reply to post by Bunch



I second the "what's the next step" idea. Eventually 2 nations will be formed; one a Jewish Israel and one a Palestinian State. They must be able to live in peaceful secure borders with recognition from all surrounding nations. How do we get there is the question. Blame both sides equally for really trying to solve it, blaming just one side alone is not a correct viewing of the situation.

As for the history lesson of who lived here when and has a right to live there, it's pretty moot to me. I would feel the same if 6 million Bantu's currently lived in Israel rather than Jews, there is no way to move that amount of people, let alone do it in a way that satisfies everyone. Either you formulate a plan for both sides to peacefully coexist, or you go about actively committing genocide till there is only one side left. All the talk of having the Israeli's or the Palestinians relocate to other lands will not work.

But bringing this back onto topic, How can Israel negoiate when others in the region are calling for the "liberation' of ALL of Palestine, when that plainy includes all of the land of Modern Israel as well? Shouldn't the Palestinians be the ones leading the way for the Arab side, not Iran (not even Arab), not Saudi Arabia, not even Egypt or Jordan.

I get the distinct impression that should the Palestinians and Israeli's actually work out a real Peace deal, that a country like Iran would call the Palestians "collabarators" and still work on destroying Israel. Anyone else feel that way? The Palestinian cause is a nice cover for Iran to call for the destruction of Israel. Even if the problem is mutually solved, Iran will still want Israel removed from the Middle East.

IMHO The big problem in the Middle East is that the Israelis think that God gave the land to them. I do not see Israel moving to Canada/Alaska. I would be all for my country giving some land in Alaska to make a New Israel if it would stop the problems in the Middle East but you know that Israel will certainly not go for that. If God wanted Israel to have the land, then there would be no disputing it and EVERYBODY ELSE WOULD KNOW IT AS WELL. Since the rest of us have not been told by God that the land belongs to Israel we can assume that it does not.

[edit on 10-9-2007 by groingrinder]

reply to post by pavil


I don't know if Iran would support a 2 state solution, in the interview that President M.A. recently gave to 60 min on CBS, he was asked that question directly and he dance around it and basically decline to comment on that prospect.

He did went on to explain that his plan is for a referendum so the people of the region could decide ( meaning so Palestinians can decide if they would welcome a 2 state solution to the conflict), but when press again by the reporter who ask that if the referendum took place and the Palestinians decide that they want to live side by side with Israel he's reponse was basically, that we should not look to the future or assume nothing, you can take him at his words that we should not look at the future or read between the lines and assume that they are not counting the Palestinians to choose a 2 state solution.

It will be good to see what would happen then, because if both sides agree on a 2 state solution and a country like Iran try to disrupt that process then all the force of the international community will come down hard on them IMO in the form of sanctions or military depending on what sort of actions Iran take to disrupt the process.