A contradiction in the bible

Originally posted by Sparky63

Originally posted by whirlwind


Christ never referred to our Lord as God so that on it's own is a clue.

Thats not quite true.
The resurrected Jesus said at John 20:17

17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

John 20:17 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.





[edit on 5-10-2007 by Sparky63]

You're right Sparky. I should have stated "before His crucifixion" - thank you for the correction. Just another example of why we shouldn't take man's word (or woman's) over that of God's.

Whirlwind; I may not agree with you but at least what you post is well written and straightforward.

Thank you for the kind words. I very much enjoy your posts also and can see the time you have spent in His Word. It is a pleasure to meet you even if we don't agree on all issues.



...........Whirlwind

I did find one passage where Jesus, before his crucifixion, used the expression "our God" Which I think would mean the same as if he had said "My God".

(Mark 12:29-30) 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’

Mark 12:29 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29 (American Standard Version)
American Standard Version (ASV)

29 Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:

reply to post by MajorMalfunction

Originally posted by whirlwind
Please read the entire Psalm and see how closely it parallels what happened.



That can also be explained, not as him quoting David, but by later writers trying to make Jesus FIT the prophecies, so that people would see this man as something more than a man.

None of the gospels were written during or just after his death, but 70 or more years later. So there is no real record of what this guy said as he was dying, or even if he was a real person and not a mythical figure or an amalgam of people living at the time.

What this "guy" said? Just on the off chance that you are wrong and there is a God and a Christ and that said Christ died for you.....don't you think you should treat Him with a little more respect?


I have heard the arguments you are giving and if you wish to believe them it is your choice. Free will allows that and if you choose to believe them God will send many more for you:


And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; bcause they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie;

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (11 Thessalonians 2:10-12)


So...I hope you rethink your beliefs. I know spirtual or supernatural topics can be difficult for some, especially if they have a scientific mind (even if they just play one on ATS) but He wants all of His children to be with Him, even the scientific ones.


........Whirlwind

reply to post by Sparky63

I did find one passage where Jesus, before his crucifixion, used the expression "our God" Which I think would mean the same as if he had said "My God".




(Mark 12:29-30) 29 Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, 30 and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’

Yes, but there He was quoting scripture (Deu.6:4-5), as He was with Psalms 22.


...........Whirlwind

In prayer with his apostles—only hours before his death—Jesus petitioned: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:1, 3.

Notice that Jesus prays to the Father, the One whom he calls “the only true God.” He points to God’s superior position when he continues: “So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (John 17:5) Since Jesus prayed to God requesting to be alongside God, how could Jesus at the same time be “the only true God”?

Originally posted by whirlwind
reply to post by AncientVoid

 

Have you noticed we're not the ones trying to convert the world?

That isn't quite true. You may not be but many are trying to convert the world to their way of thinking and much of that thinking is very evil.

The converting Christians do is to offer you peace, love, eternal life....quite a difference between the two.


.........Whirlwind

This is not true, if you studied Christian history and what they have done to people all over the world you will find a history of a culture destroying hateful convert or die mentality that went on for centuries. If there is a God, there will be a judgment for these atrocities.

Study the 1st 2nd and 3rd crusades, the North and South American Indians, the Inquisition and many other indigenous peoples first contacts with Christians all over the world.

Interesting enough, Christianity is responsible for death and destruction, and culture destroying events throughout its history, and today they try to talk about how they are morally superior. It would be funny, if it wasn't so sick.

I would like to see evidence of Evil done to humans by atheists, compared the Evil done to humans by Christians.


[edit on 5-10-2007 by LDragonFire]

How is using the brains that we were given -- either by god, according to you, or evolution, according to me -- to explore the world and universe rationally "evil"?

That is the attitude that belies the message of "Christian love."

I haven't read all the posts yet, but early on someone said that characters 2 and 3 (JEsus and the HS) only appear in the Bible 2/3 of the way though the Bible.

That's not entirely true. In the Old Testament Jesus appeared and is called the angel of the Lord. The Holy Spirit makes appearances as well. David mentions the Spirit being on him in the Psalms and as I remember Samson had the Spirit of God with him.

Sorry if this had already been stated. I just wanted to post it before I forgot.

Tom

reply to post by LDragonFire


What Christians did in the past is irrelevant, for reform happened. Once a religion is modernized up to modern standards, like Buddhism, Christianity, Protestant, etc, then they are good, and their past must be treated as if it were another faith, as it was essentially a whole different religion. The evils of the corrupt past are long gone(sort of), and when the past can be admitted, as Christians have done, and when the people say "ok, we are sorry" then they can continue. I see few Imams so far talking about forgiveness in the middle east. We have plenty of modernized and reformed western Imams who are peace loving, but over in the middle east? not many. Buddhists were very violent in the begining, if I remember correctly, but you don't see them getting abused for it. they forgave and forgot, like the Christians have done, yet you do not abuse anyone but Christians. You sir, are a hypocrite.

Buddhism and violence

But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

* in the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China
* in Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters

In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb.Sawaki Kodo

In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives.

www.bbc.co.uk...


I do not blame you or any atheists for the countless millions of dead Russians from Communisms, or the ever more from Chinese communism. I wish you were the same, and did not blame me or my faith for the past corruptions, as it was poor decision on the part of religious leaders and corrupt people. The same goes to Buddhists. I do not blame them for most of the problems in the South East Asian region up to the mid 1900s

According to your philosophy, I should blame you for what YOUR corrupt past leaders and their bad decisions did to my ancestors of Russia. But I'm better then that, so I don't. Stop being a hypocrite.

[edit on 5-10-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 5-10-2007 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by Gorman91
What Christians did in the past is irrelevant, for reform happened.

Wow are you serious? You would like that wouldn't you?
I guess your right, witting the bible is irrelevant...

All these 'magic' things happen then, so why you saying what Christians did in the past is irrelevant. Too bad god doesn't think like that, and dam people to hell.

Russia wasn't about atheism, it was about fundamentalism. Totalitarian regimes, even atheist ones, are fundamentalist regimes -- in the case of Russia, religion was changed from mostly Christian and Jewish to worship of the state.

So can we stop with this stupid argument about atheists killing Russians? That was not the motivation for the pogroms, it was an excuse.

The Crusades, however, were about religion.

That is the difference.

Atheism was a tool of Stalin, it wasn't what he was fighting for. And it was not true atheism, it was state worship -- statolatry.

Straw man argument. Is not relevant. Please stop saying it because it's not a valid point.

Ancient sentiment did not comport with the mention of the mother as the genealogical link.

Thanks, that clears that one up. Now what about all the other things mentioned on that link I provided?

OK i am going to give you the benefit of assuming you are someone who has researched all of this. So, without further delay, how do you get to "just one error is enough to indicate the falsehood of the entire religion"? I won't go into detail as to why I ask for this as i am sure you are intelligent enough to be able to point me to your references that "indicate" that the whole religion is false.

If you are willing to follow Christianity in a sense that you live by Jesus' word, try to obey the Ten Commandments and ask God/Jesus for forgiveness for your sin, and believe that you will get into Heaven for leading such a life while others will go to hell, then mistakes in the Bible do not prove your entire religion wrong.

However, very few people practice such a version of Christianity and instead follow the strict rules of an established church. I've never heard of a church that didn't preach the inerrancy of its own Bible. References? Ask a priest if the Bible could be wrong. There's my reference.

Nevertheless, if the Bible has just one or a few inaccuracies, it still raises questions as to which parts are the mistakes and which parts are the truth. These questions remain unanswered, and will always remain unanswered unless somebody invents a time machine.

And as a final note, Jesus left us with no gospel of his own. We have the teachings of his apostles, but they are not saviors. True Christianity was the following of Jesus Christ's teachings, not his apostles'. What people practice today would be more accurately described as Apostle-anity. We know (assuming Biblical history is accurate on these accounts) of one of his followers who betrayed him and another who denied knowing him three times. This tells us that the honesty, reliability, and motives of the apostles is questionable at best.

Jesus' word? We weren't there to hear it, and he didn't write it down (though some believe he did, but it has been covered up - in any case, we can't read it for ourselves.) Oh well. It's no wonder that a couple millenia later we're sitting here on a forum arguing over whether he was God himself or God's son.

reply to post by LDragonFire

This is not true, if you studied Christian history and what they have done to people all over the world you will find a history of a culture destroying hateful convert or die mentality that went on for centuries. If there is a God, there will be a judgment for these atrocities.

There is God and there will be judgment for those atrocities. I have been searching for a scripture about this but haven't been able to find it. Essentially it states that judgment begins at the pulpit then next in line are our leaders.


Romans 2:11.For there is no respect of persons with God

2:6.Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (good deeds and bad deeds, judgment can also be good)

2:9.Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first and also of the Gentile.

Study the 1st 2nd and 3rd crusades, the North and South American Indians, the Inquisition and many other indigenous peoples first contacts with Christians all over the world.

Interesting enough, Christianity is responsible for death and destruction, and culture destroying events throughout its history, and today they try to talk about how they are morally superior. It would be funny, if it wasn't so sick.

I would like to see evidence of Evil done to humans by atheists, compared the Evil done to humans by Christians.

DragonFire, when you consider what you have written you must add into the mix the fact that evil is involved with Christianity too, not just in the evil that some do but the evil that causes it. That evil comes in the form of Satan. He is prince of this world, this age and he uses his power well.


John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out


God tells us that Satan has power over this age:


Zechariah 1:18 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.

19.And I said unto the angel that talked with me, "What be these?" And he answered me, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem."

20.And the Lord shewed me four carpenters.

21.Then said I, "What come these to do?" And he spake, saying, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it."


Horns, as used in scripture represent power. What four powers are used to keep a man from "lifting up his head?" What keeps a man under the thumb of evil until the day he dies? The four controlling powers, to me, would be Political power, Financial power, Educational power and the biggest of all......Religion.

Satan works through religion with his lies and deceit to keep man under his control. So when you attribute so much death and destruction to Christianity think of who is behind it. Cut through the garbage and see the beauty of the true Christian, of the true Christ. Ask yourself, would the Son of God approve of those atrocities? You have to answer no, He would not.

That does not mean there will not be wars, justified wars. We are in a spiritual battle and He expects us to fight against evil.




...........Whirlwind

reply to post by MajorMalfunction

How is using the brains that we were given -- either by god, according to you, or evolution, according to me -- to explore the world and universe rationally "evil"?

That is the attitude that belies the message of "Christian love."

I assume you directed this to me....if not, please excuse the reply.

I do believe God gave us our brains and of course we should use them to the best of our ability. Did I say something to make you think otherwise?

Why would it be evil to explore the world?

My personal belief is that when this age is over and the dragon is no more then our souls will be able to explore the universe......just my belief but it is one I look forward to.



..............Whirlwind

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

What Christians did in the past is irrelevant, for reform happened. Once a religion is modernized up to modern standards, like Buddhism, Christianity, Protestant, etc, then they are good, and their past must be treated as if it were another faith, as it was essentially a whole different religion. The evils of the corrupt past are long gone(sort of), and when the past can be admitted, as Christians have done, and when the people say "ok, we are sorry" then they can continue. I see few Imams so far talking about forgiveness in the middle east. We have plenty of modernized and reformed western Imams who are peace loving, but over in the middle east? not many. Buddhists were very violent in the begining, if I remember correctly, but you don't see them getting abused for it. they forgave and forgot, like the Christians have done, yet you do not abuse anyone but Christians. You sir, are a hypocrite.

Funny how your religion changes over time, a Contradiction maybe? How am I abusing Christians by asking questions? How am I a hypocrite??

The evils of the corrupt past are long gone(sort of), and when the past can be admitted, as Christians have done, and when the people say "ok, we are sorry" then they can continue.

Sort of??
Are you admitting Christianity was Evil??

If those of the Islamic faith wish to post, I will abuse them equally

But really this thread is about The Christian Bible and contradictions in it, I have other threads to discuss Islam, Buddha, Just see my signature.

According to your philosophy, I should blame you for what YOUR corrupt past leaders and their bad decisions did to my ancestors of Russia. But I'm better then that, so I don't. Stop being a hypocrite.

My leaders, I'M NOT RUSSIAN!

I'm not being a hypocrite!

What Christians did in the past is Very Relevant, this is your chosen history! This is the group you defend and call your own!

My name is Andrew and I have had my own communications with The Lord God since I was 7. In paticular my personal experience with the Shekhina filled me with the light and the truth. My descendants are from the Tribe of Judah. When I was a young teenager I walked and talked with God.

I am not making up a story when I tell you I have been to the pillar in the sky, the mountain top, The Lord God was in me and I was in God. I have been shown many things by the Most High. Listen when I tell you you are in a forest and The Eternal has been looking for you. He has been searching but he can not find you. You are separated from him because your soul has been spoiled and you no longer bear Fruit.

Life is like a Tree. But the tree is upside down. The Roots of the tree are concealed in Heaven. The trunk extends out of Heaven through this Earth. The Branches are the people of this World. Those Branches either bear fruit or die based on the good deeds that they do. When you do good in this world you are bringing good Fruit and are cultivating a field so that you may be sustained in the time of the Lord's coming.

Does your branch bear fruit? Is your soul dying because of its impure nature and tendency? Cleanse your souls so that you may no longer be separated from the love of the Most High who is looking, waiting, and always ready to bring you home from the forest, where you can be comforted.



The Trinity has been around longer then Christ. What has happened is the rewritten interpretations of Jesus words have been mislead and distorted.

If God created man in his image, being our creator, would that not make all of us his children and him our father? When you are created by your parents do you not call them mother and father? Why do you reject your only true Father by not seeking him through cleansing of your soul which is through actions and repentance.



Jesus was not the only one who spoke the Trinity. The Trinity lives inside each and every one of us.

Come near unto me. hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (Isaiah 48:16)

I will declare the decree: The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee. (Psalm 2:7)

The Trinity has been around since before Christ. If you go back to my earlier point about The Eternal being our Father if he created us you will come to the realization the Trinity lives inside all of us.

There is The Father who watches over us all the time everytime, The Spirit (Shekhina, Mother aspect of God), and The Son which is EACH and EVERY ONE of YOU.

People's minds are impure and lost in the ability to communicate with their Father. The Father never sleeps nor misses a moment for he is not bound by time nor distance. The problem is unless you can get back to him he can not help you. God did not separate you from him, you separated yourself through your actions and not bearing good fruit.


[edit on 6-10-2007 by Raphael]

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Raphael]

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." [1 John 4:8 ]
"We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us
God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God and God in him." [1 John 4:16]

It must be understood that true love reflects the totality of goodness. Goodness is dependent upon truth and truth leads to justice. Justice is a cohort of goodness and has as its foundation the Word of God that is always.

Your a slave to yourselves and you do not even know. Make room for Love and always walk in Truth so that you may know God. Bare Fruit so that all of Heaven may see your Beauty. When you do this you will break free from the bondage you have been under and you too will know that the Lord God IS HERE and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. Come out of Hiding and clear your earthly desires from your soul. Repent from the deepest pocket of your heart and know that the Lord God will hear you but not until you have done these things.



[edit on 6-10-2007 by Raphael]

My name is Andrew and I have had my own communications with The Lord God since I was 7. In paticular my personal experience with the Shekhina filled me with the light and the truth. My descendants are from the Tribe of Judah. When I was a young teenager I walked and talked with God

My personal belief is that you are either lying, or hallucinating. I'm sorry if that offends you but in my short membership of this site so far, I've seen people claim to be everything from best friends of nearly unlimited numbers of secret government insiders, to mystically powered light children with psychic powers.

The only thing you've said that I agree with is that "the rewritten interpretations of Jesus words have been mislead and distorted." Everything else was poetic nonsense.

Originally posted by mattifikation
My personal belief is that you are either lying, or hallucinating. I'm sorry if that offends you but in my short membership of this site so far, I've seen people claim to be everything from best friends of nearly unlimited numbers of secret government insiders, to mystically powered light children with psychic powers.

The only thing you've said that I agree with is that "the rewritten interpretations of Jesus words have been mislead and distorted." Everything else was poetic nonsense.

You can not offend me. I love you too much and there is little time for personal feelings to distort the truth. Anything I speak to you has already been written long before I came to this world. I am just helping you understand as it is written so that the Lord God may KNOW YOU and preserve you.

Many have come in the name of The Lord deceiving the world. These are priests of darkness and lies.

The reason you can not believe what I say is because you have lost faith in the Lord God. You have lost your faith, your life force, and total connection to God. Only through repentance, faith and truth can you receive the blessings of The Most High.

I only speak truth which has been conveyed from God through his Spirit blessed be The Lord.

Take the sword of the spirit in your hands.

The Word of God has power to lay open the heart because the word is the sword of the Spirit. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth, and the word, and My Father loves and honors it.

If you really want to survive eternally, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of the Spirit of God which is the light and the truth, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, you too will receive the Spirit of God and you will be sealed until the time of the end when the book will be reopened.


"To all who received Him He gave the power to become children of God: to those who believe in His name" (John 1:13).


Cry like you have never cried before and poor out your heart for the shame of your transgressions. Ask for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ IN TRUTH and you shall receive the gift of The Holy Spirit as I have, then you will be born again, you will be nurtured and brought into the Divine Grace of God's Offering. And you shall no longer need Earthly Idols. When you receive The Lord's Divine Grace you will no longer steer away from God nor He from you.

[edit on 6-10-2007 by Raphael]

Originally posted by DJMessiah

Originally posted by whirlwind
When He returns it will be as when He left. He won't need to be born again.

So if he ascended to heaven in human form and will return in human form, is that really considered a sacrifice of his body?

Just to add, Jesus appeared slightly different after his death, people knew who he was but guess in a more angelic form and his wounds healed but with scars. Technically Jesus being God can do what he wants now, appear in flesh or spirit but his return would be spiritual as people will see him from all over the world in all locations and only the spirit can do multiplicity. Jesus does meet him self in Heaven Revelation 5, a bit like heaven having many rooms with him self in it but only one does the work of saving man kind, as he was individual in the flesh after all.