What is the role and origin of the book of Revelation?

reply to post by John_Q_Llama


the 'role' and 'origin'....

i think that the visions John had was built from his rememberances of the
Essene scrolls/beliefs/worldviews...
the Essenes had the view that the forces-of-light (which John identified a the christian cult)
were in an epic conflict with the forces-of-darkness, (interpeted as Rome-Nero, et al, by the senile/parkinsons' afflicted spiritually obsessed man called John the Revelator)

If one is a 'believer' & is inspired by ones 'faith', then the 'Revelation' is a cornestone of Christianity.
If one has a secular worldview, then the 'Revelation' is another device that
ultimately keeps one convinced that Christian cultists are a self deluded
bunch...and its just anothe layer of manipulative and interpetitive story-telling/myth.

your choice

Originally posted by janasstar
reply to post by John_Q_Llama

 

John, I have a question for you that might make all the difference. Did you ever have the born-again experience as a Christian? I have a reason for asking. Without this spiritual transformation, it is impossible to understand the things of God.
Since I had the experience, it's no longer a question or doubt of God's existence. He communicates with my spirit. I have met Him in my spirit. God is a Spirit and we have to deal with Him in spirit.

[edit on 9/19/2007 by janasstar]

Jana,

Let me clear something up. I still believe in God. But I no longer feel that the Christian belief system, or any other religious belief system, is truely "of God" and worthy of my participation. I suppose you could consider me a deist. I still respect people who participate in those religions and I hope that they reciprocate that respect.

Now as far as the born again experience, I have had something like that, and I have witnessed plenty of them. I participated in about twenty weekend retreats, mostly with teens, during which things get extremely emotional and spiritual. It was on one of those retreats where I first encountered the supposed personal relationship with Christ. At a later point I wound up making the commitment. I have heard a LOT of testimonies about people being born again, people giving their lives to Christ, and so on. In hindsight, and I include myself in this, I have realized that there is a common component to nearly all of these people's experiences. When they give their lives to Christ, they are involved a highly emotional experience or time in their lives. I now wonder if that aspect of the process, the emotional intensity, is what gives one a sense of being renewed. Believe me, I know exactly what it is like. The morning after I thought I'd been saved, I woke up feeling new. It really was wonderful. But it didn't take more than a couple weeks before everything was back to normal once the emotion wore off.

I have also felt that God has communicated with me. It is an experience that seems to go in spurts during (here we go again) emotional times of life. That said, I do NOT discount that God can and/or does communicate directly with us. However I don't think we must satisfy the prerequisite of accepting a savior in order for God to "speak" to us.

One last point... Some time before I finally realized that I couldn't continue being a Christian, I came to the conclusion that spirituality is about the relationship between a person and the thing(s) they worship. Unfortunately we have no way of knowing, without a doubt, whether or not our worship is directed at some entity that exists. But the idea that we can worship a God or Creator or Goddess or many Gods or whoever/whatever, is one I agree with. What I do not agree with is the concept that there must be a middle man, or some other requirements thrown in to being able to worship. Why must I accept a savior? Why must I be involved in a church? Why must I do all of these things that have nothing to do with worship directly? God created me, I want to worship him. It's simple. All of this other junk that religion brings into the picture just makes it more complicated and even difficult. Worship should be an enlightening experience that a person can do on their own in their own way.

Thanks everyone for the input about Revelations and the associated scripture about prophesy. Time to start checking out some of these references to older writings. I will probably be posting soon with more questions.

Originally posted by janasstar
So, I think anything further that the Christian arena could say here, would fall on deaf ears or be held up to scorn.

Maybe, maybe not. Do you believe the Word of God can hold up to scorn?

Originally posted by janasstar
I see I have wasted my efforts here.

Are you sure about that?

Revelation states the role and origin in the first chapter.

the bible says 616 as the number

Text Inspired by God and written by man.

this is my problem with the bible, yes it might have been inspired by god but man has aabit of leaving out the bits that might hinder their power.
its well known there are other books that have been left out including thomas, mary magdalene and even some say jesus'.
these books have been omitted for many speculated reasons some that jesus does not want churchs, and mary magdalene was second to christ or that even jesus had children.
i dont know if these are true and if they are they would rock the christian world and probally bring down

i would love to see these books

Originally posted by John_Q_Llama
Jana,

Your first point is both valid and invalid, as odd as that sounds. While I am not against hearing something from a Christian perspective, I am more interested in non-biased information. In other words, anything that is not going to be for or against Christianity (or religion in general). Unfortunately I have found it to be very, very challenging to find such a source.

Maybe part of Jana's problem is that what you state here to want in responses has an a priori bias against any Christian responding to your enquiry. For a believer the book's importance and role is that of an eschatological writing. Since it is a spiritual revelation, a spiritual vision, and a spiritual prophecy - the answer by a believer is going to be necessarily founded on the spiritual importance of it.

So, by our (believers) own definition of the role and importance of The Revelation, we can't hardly answer you without bias FOR our spiritual beliefs.

Anyways, that's the role and importance of The Revelation to the believer. I'm assuming if you don't believe, it really has no role or importance...that would be the two-sided answer that would negate bias.

Originally posted by Valhall
Anyways, that's the role and importance of The Revelation to the believer. I'm assuming if you don't believe, it really has no role or importance...that would be the two-sided answer that would negate bias.

I completely understand what you mean. As an ex-Christian, I realized the significance the book of Revelation has. However, I also wonder if it has a purpose for those who are not Christians.

What I mean is this. It is my personal belief that the world elite could use Revelation as a sort of blueprint for events they could attempt to unfold. I've read plenty about things like Project Bluebeam, planned mass depopulation, and so on. These things could be fit in with the concept of the rapture and tribulation. So I guess the point of my original post was the see what other people thought of that idea.

Originally posted by kerrichin
Text Inspired by God and written by man.

this is my problem with the bible, yes it might have been inspired by god but man has aabit of leaving out the bits that might hinder their power.
its well known there are other books that have been left out including thomas, mary magdalene and even some say jesus'.
these books have been omitted for many speculated reasons some that jesus does not want churchs, and mary magdalene was second to christ or that even jesus had children.
i dont know if these are true and if they are they would rock the christian world and probally bring down

i would love to see these books

That's one of the things I have a problem with as well kerrichin. I find it hard to believe that the emperor of Rome at the time (and perhaps many of the other people), who played a part in the assembly of what is now in the Bible, didn't have his own personal motives when selecting the texts to be included.

That's one of the things I have a problem with as well kerrichin. I find it hard to believe that the emperor of Rome at the time (and perhaps many of the other people), who played a part in the assembly of what is now in the Bible, didn't have his own personal motives when selecting the texts to be included.

thank you at least im not the only one

[edit on 21-9-2007 by kerrichin]

reply to post by John_Q_Llama

Originally posted by Valhall
Anyways, that's the role and importance of The Revelation to the believer. I'm assuming if you don't believe, it really has no role or importance...that would be the two-sided answer that would negate bias.



I completely understand what you mean. As an ex-Christian, I realized the significance the book of Revelation has. However, I also wonder if it has a purpose for those who are not Christians.

It has relevance to everyone whether or not you are a Christian or whether or not you believe. We are His and will stand in front of Him one day, whether or not you believe. He is just giving us a "heads' up" on what will happen. After that it is our choice.

What I mean is this. It is my personal belief that the world elite could use Revelation as a sort of blueprint for events they could attempt to unfold. I've read plenty about things like Project Bluebeam, planned mass depopulation, and so on. These things could be fit in with the concept of the rapture and tribulation. So I guess the point of my original post was the see what other people thought of that idea.

Revelation is not easy to understand but it holds great lessons. The more one understands the less likely we are to be tricked. That is actually the warning contained in Revelation. One of the biggest lessons it contains is that there will be NO RAPTURE. There is no such thing.



..............Whirlwind

Originally posted by whirlwind

One of the biggest lessons it contains is that there will be NO RAPTURE. There is no such thing.

Yeah, that was one of the things that spurned me into digging deeper into my Christian beliefs. So many people assume that modern belief about the rapture and tribulation as being true without looking at where this whole concept came from. I read all of the Left Behind books as they came out with great enthusiasm. Later, when I was starting to take my questions about my faith and investigate them, I discovered the real source of much about the rapture. Good ole Darby and Irving have really fooled a lot of people.

[edit on 21-9-2007 by John_Q_Llama]

reply to post by kerrichin


these books are called the apochrypha and are still available. I don't understand their being seperated from the original text either, but it seems that a group of 'men' decided that they were not spiritually inspired.

reply to post by John_Q_Llama


The word, "rapture' is not in the bible but there are things that mean the same thing. It means a catching away. What do you think is meant by the scriptures that tell us, that the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with Him, in the air, to be with Him forevermore.

I was going through this thread and I want to throw an idea I have thought about as a follower of Christ. The bible has been translated from Hebrew to Greek and from Greek into English. That is enough right there to cause some flaws in the bible. The bible in my oppinion wasn't ment to be translated at all. Second you have the hand of man changing God's message to some extent especially during the rise of the Catholic church. Some scholars believe that the woman riding the beast in Revelation represent the Catholic church. God is not going to fault those who read His word through tainted writings just like those who never hear of God and Jesus. He is going to send those people to Hell. I will read the bible and pray afterwords. Some of the bible will make sense and I take it with me and others I don't. The most important thing to me is that I feel the love of God and Jesus in my heart.

Originally posted by wardk28
I was going through this thread and I want to throw an idea I have thought about as a follower of Christ. The bible has been translated from Hebrew to Greek and from Greek into English. That is enough right there to cause some flaws in the bible. The bible in my oppinion wasn't ment to be translated at all. Second you have the hand of man changing God's message to some extent especially during the rise of the Catholic church. Some scholars believe that the woman riding the beast in Revelation represent the Catholic church. God is not going to fault those who read His word through tainted writings just like those who never hear of God and Jesus. He is going to send those people to Hell. I will read the bible and pray afterwords. Some of the bible will make sense and I take it with me and others I don't. The most important thing to me is that I feel the love of God and Jesus in my heart.

When the passage was written to not change anything in the bible, i think it meant to not change the meaning. But with all the best intentions, errors can occur. This is one of the major reasons that I can think of, that a person needs to be born-again and spirit-filled to read the Word. Because then, the Spirit can teach you all Truths. As to the things you mention above, we could all argue our points as to their meaning. But when push comes to shove, is that what's really important?
If we accept Jesus Christ as our saviour, and prepare for His coming, (according to the bible) then that day will not overtake us like a thief in the night. We will see the signs of 'His Coming." And if we've done these things, according to Christian beliefs, then the important thing is that we will see eternal life.

[edit on 9/22/2007 by janasstar]

Revelations was included because the impact sibyls had in the Roman empire. Sibyls were the most popular books throughout the Empire for hundreds of years. People would refer to them for all types of decisions and guidance. Power mad individuals were no different in 300AD than in the 21st century. They know how to lie, cheat and influence decisions to assemble a book or to invade a foreign Nation. No difference. Reevelations would serve the same purpose the sibylline books did.

Most people could not read during the formative years of the Bible, they had no reaseach tools available to them.
People would listen to the theme of redemption and salvation, then came the hammer of revelations, to terrorize and bring home the marketing aspect of the new Christian Faith.
It was meant to terrorize and use fear as a tool, to bring masses of people under control. The Original sibyl cults were stamped out by the new christian church. In later years this church would massacre hundreds of thousands if not millions during the witch hunts, the cathars, etc, etc. for the same reason, the truth is a dangerous thing.

The Bible is a book, nothing more. it has no value in of itself, it will not save you unless you have one of those really big ones to use as a weapon.

The message it contains, however is a worth reading, then letting the book go and understanding the journey Christ is trying to place you on is the key.
The bible is not a destination, its directions to a journey.

reply to post by John_Q_Llama

Originally posted by whirlwind

One of the biggest lessons it contains is that there will be NO RAPTURE. There is no such thing.





Yeah, that was one of the things that spurned me into digging deeper into my Christian beliefs. So many people assume that modern belief about the rapture and tribulation as being true without looking at where this whole concept came from. I read all of the Left Behind books as they came out with great enthusiasm. Later, when I was starting to take my questions about my faith and investigate them, I discovered the real source of much about the rapture. Good ole Darby and Irving have really fooled a lot of people.

The rapture theory continues to fool many and as such it is very dangerous. However, the tribulation is quite true. There are actually two tribulations, the first is that of the anti-christ when he comes to earth pretending to be Christ and he will fool many. The 2nd is that of the true Christ but if you believe in Him and didn't follow the anti-christ there is nothing to worry about. He loves His children.



...........Whirlwind

reply to post by janasstar

The word, "rapture' is not in the bible but there are things that mean the same thing. It means a catching away. What do you think is meant by the scriptures that tell us, that the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with Him, in the air, to be with Him forevermore.

Usually, when rapture is taught it is taken from the scripture you quoted (4:17) but it is necessary to begin at vs. 13 to pick up the subject, which is where the dead are:

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16.For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17.Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



In those scriptures Paul is teaching where the dead are - with Christ and if He rose again, so shall they. Christ will descend at the 7th and last trump and of course the dead shall rise first as they are already with Him.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52.In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Then we get to the verse you quoted (17). Those of us that are living when the 7th trump happens are changed, as shown in the above scripture, in the twinkling of an eye....and we meet Him in the "air".

Air as used there is "breath", as the breath of life and that is your spirit, not atmosphere. So....it means we will meet Him in our spiritual bodies as everyone living at that time has been changed. It doesn't mean He is coming to rapture us away.

Paul makes that clear in His 2nd letter to the Thessalonians when he tells them:


11 Thessalonians 2:3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

11.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12.That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



So....God allows strong delusion if we want to believe a lie about that time. Is that lie that we are going to be raptured away? If the anti-christ comes to earth promising that he will gather us together will we follow him?

For those that believe in rapture I ask to at least be prepared in case it doesn't happen and always remember who comes first....wait for Christ.



...........Whirlwind