Lutherans to allow pastors in gay relationships

Originally posted by Griff
So, by your own admition, we are able to pick and choose which of the old testament laws we need to follow. Got it. Thanks for clearing that one up. /sarcasm.

No, he didn't say anything of the sort. It's insulting of you too insinuate that the poster is cherrypicking which parts of scripture to follow willy-nilly. If you are wondering how he makes a distinction and why, ask. Your snarky post reflects more on you than it does your subject.

Got it now? I hope that 'clears that one up'.

Eric

[edit on 14-8-2007 by EricD]

Originally posted by Griff
So, by your own admition, we are able to pick and choose which of the old testament laws we need to follow. Got it. Thanks for clearing that one up. /sarcasm.

I never said that you can pick and choose.
Obviously you have never studied the bible other then from an aspect to try and pick it apart, which is really sad. You have to understand some of the history of the time of writing and some other background information to truly understand what the Bible talks about. Something tells me this is going to be an exercise in futility, but I will attempt to answer your questions. Generally it’s a waste of time to even try with those who hate Christianity, as they have what is referred to as a Hardened Heart.

The Jewish Laws apply only to the Jewish people, they do not apply to Gentiles, and they are meant as covenants between God and his chosen people, the Israelites. These Laws include such things as the cleanliness laws. It is not a sin to break the cleanliness laws, and later in the bible after the apostles are told to minister to the gentiles these laws are stated to no longer apply even to the Jewish Christians.

Here specifically is where the Jewish apostles were allowed to eat other foods:

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Originally posted by Griff
And you know exactly which ones to pick and choose from. And of course you know what God had intended in his commandments.
Let's go through his commandments.

I never said that it was ok to not follow the commandments, Christ said we are to follow them, however Cleanliness laws, Sacrificial Laws, and the like are not Commandments. You are comparing apples and oranges.

The Bible goes to GREAT lengths to separate out the Israelites from the Gentiles, and there are different rules for the two groups. These rules mainly differ because one group was the chosen of God prior to the coming of the messiah. I can show you many areas in the bible where this is made crystal clear that these two groups differ. One prime example is the 144,000 in Revelation. The First fruits are Jewish Christian Male virgins, the Christians are part of the group who follows the 144K wearing white robes.

Originally posted by Griff
Seems resonable. Other than Christians worshiping Mother Mary.

Christians don’t worship Mary, Catholics pray to Mary for intercession. Praying to saints one of the big reasons I am not a Catholic, and Luther considered the Pope to be the Antichrist.

Originally posted by Griff
No carvings (idols). There goes the cross. That Jesus fish thingy. Etc. etc.

Which is why many Christian Churches do not have the graven images found in the Catholic Church. Graven Images is a specific type of image anyway; it’s an idol, not the same thing as the fish which is used for one Christian to identify another.

Originally posted by Griff
Ok. Vain comes from vanity. That means to not consider yourself better than others because you use God as a defense. At least my interpretation of it. Seems alot of Christians could re-read this one.

Well I would hope that you are at least intelligent enough to realize that English is not the original language of the Bible. The Strong’s Concordance for vain is:

shawv, shav
From the same as H7722 in the sense of desolating; evil (as destructive), literally (ruin) or morally (especially guile); figuratively idolatry (as false, subjectively), uselessness (as deceptive, objectively; also adverbially in vain): - false (-ly), lie, lying, vain, vanity.

Basically you are only to call on the Name of God in worship. You are not to use his name to swear oaths, curse, or just cause you feel like it.

Originally posted by Griff
Sounds easy right? Not so. The Sabatt is actually Saturday and not Sunday. Do we keep Saturday holy?

Many Christians in fact still use Saturday as the sabath. Technically the Sabath starts on Friday at sunset and ends on Saturday at sunset. Many Christians also believe that it is important for Christians to have a separate identity from the Jews, and there were times in history when it was dangerous for Christians to worship on days other then the local norm. Mainly though, this is another case of where the Catholic church changed things which IMHO goes against the Bible, again this is part of why there was a Protestant Reformation.

Originally posted by Griff
Another easy one right? Nope. What if momsy goes a little insane and tells you to kill? Which leads to the next one.

Col 3:20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
Col 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Next:

Originally posted by Griff
But, Lord, what if we are at war?

Governments are given a special status and different rules by God. Wars, Slavery, Prisoners, and such things are laws of society, and not of individual persons, and thus fall under this set of rules. Governments are supposed to rule wisely, justly, and in a Godly manner. It is mentioned that God allows various governments to prosper and others to fail based on this. After all:

Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Originally posted by Griff
So, Robin Hood is going to hell also. But, we were taught he was the good guy?

Robin hood was a fictional character, the real person he was based on was most likely not as noble as the story tells. Either way though, people do not go to hell for sinning, which is the fundamental aspect that most antichristians totally miss. What people go to hell for is not repenting of their sins and accepting forgiveness (grace).
Christians are not sinless, they are forgiven.

Originally posted by Griff
People NEVER do that.

Again, all people sin, it’s a matter of forgiveness (Accepting grace through the acceptance of Christ and his death), and repentance (Knowing you did wrong and trying to do better).

Originally posted by Griff
Now, let's hear what Jesus had to say about the commandments.
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).
Just a little sermon for those who need it.

What Christ is referring to is that the Law is broken into two main parts, which can be summed up as Love. You are to Love your God, which includes fearing God (meaning trying to live up to his law to the best of your ability), and you are to love your neighbor as yourself. Committing Adultery/fornication does not show love toward your neighbor or your God, it is a selfish act, which makes it fall under being a sin of the flesh.


Just a little proper explanation for those who really don’t understand what they are preaching about…


[edit on 8/14/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Griff
So, by your own admition, we are able to pick and choose which of the old testament laws we need to follow. Got it. Thanks for clearing that one up. /sarcasm.

I never said that you can pick and choose.
Obviously you have never studied the bible other then from an aspect to try and pick it apart, which is really sad. You have to understand some of the history of the time of writing and some other background information to truly understand what the Bible talks about. Something tells me this is going to be an exercise in futility, but I will attempt to answer your questions. Generally it’s a waste of time to even try with those who hate Christianity, as they have what is referred to as a Hardened Heart.

The Jewish Laws apply only to the Jewish people, they do not apply to Gentiles, and they are meant as covenants between God and his chosen people, the Israelites. These Laws include such things as the cleanliness laws. It is not a sin to break the cleanliness laws, and later in the bible after the apostles are told to minister to the gentiles these laws are stated to no longer apply even to the Jewish Christians.

It's not a harndened heart, it's an open mind that's willing to question things that we think don't make any sense. Isn't that a God given ability?

And isn't Jesus known as the 'King of Jews'?

For a religion that is supposed to be all about love, the majority of the leaders and followers and pretty judgemental and downright hateful at times. Plus um, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' ring a bell?

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
It's not a harndened heart, it's an open mind that's willing to question things that we think don't make any sense. Isn't that a God given ability?

Actually the opposite is true. Someone with a hardened heart sees things on that topic with a closed mind out of hate or anger toward whatever the subject is that they have a hardened heart against.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
And isn't Jesus known as the 'King of Jews'?

That was a derogatory title hung on the Cross above Christ by the Romans. Christ was the promised messiah of the Jews, but many Jews rejected him because he was not the conquering king who was to lead them against the Romans, as they had expected. So they hardened their hearts toward him, and rejected him out of close mindedness because things did not happen the way they had expected. That was the whole point of Palm Sunday, these same people that welcomed him thinking he was to lead them, rejected him, and put him to death shortly after this, because he showed up riding on a lowly donkey rather then showing up as a conquering hero.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
Plus um, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' ring a bell?

Hm, I don’t recall judging anyone…
Maybe you’re talking about yourself as you seem to be judging me.
As a matter of fact, I recall saying that all men are sinners, including all Christians.

Originally posted by defcon5
Obviously you have never studied the bible other then from an aspect to try and pick it apart, which is really sad.

Obviously you know nothing about me. I grew up studying the bible. I was a church camp counselor. BTW, are we not suppossed to judge others?

Generally it’s a waste of time to even try with those who hate Christianity, as they have what is referred to as a Hardened Heart.

There you go again with your judging things before you know what it is. Who says I hate Christianity? I dislike those that use it to further their own objectives, yes, but not the religion itself.

The Jewish Laws apply only to the Jewish people, they do not apply to Gentiles,

So, Leviticus is thrown out then? Good. That book is long and borring. And it's the one used to further the homo hatred here and elsewhere.

Jewish Christians.

Just had to laugh at this. "Jews for Jesus" rings a bell.

Look. I'm not going to get into a bible quoting pissing match with you. You have your views and I have mine. Mine are based off of science and rational thinking.

The thread is titled "Lutherans to allow pastors in gay relationships". Let's stick to that.

Originally posted by defcon5

Again, all people sin

i HATE when people say this.....
not everyone sins. i have NEVER commited a sin.

if you do not believe in them, you can not commit them.

keep the guilt trips to yourself and lets say something like "everyone who believes sins" or something to that effect.
don't lay your trip on me....

Originally posted by Griff
I grew up studying the bible. I was a church camp counselor. BTW, are we not suppossed to judge others?

Judge not lest ye be judged, is probably the most misquoted verse in the bible. What it means is that I cannot judge your heart, but I can still judge someone’s actions or remarks. How else would you expect someone to follow the verses in the bible which tell believers how to evaluate others, such things as “know it by its fruit”?

Ah, but you like to take the bits you like and throw out the rest, that is obvious. I can make the assumption that you lack a certain degree of biblical studying if you do not understand something as basic as fornication and adultery.

Originally posted by Griff
There you go again with your judging things before you know what it is. Who says I hate Christianity? I dislike those that use it to further their own objectives, yes, but not the religion itself.

Ah, then why would you dispute basic tenants in the religion which are clearly stated in the bible? To me, twisting what is written in the book, to justify something that is clearly forbidden is far more of someone “following their own objectives”.

Originally posted by Griff
So, Leviticus is thrown out then? Good. That book is long and borring. And it's the one used to further the homo hatred here and elsewhere.

Most of the laws in Leviticus do only apply to the Jews, the book is mainly in the bible because it is a historical book which is part of Torah, and was in the Sepegant.

Originally posted by Griff
Just had to laugh at this. "Jews for Jesus" rings a bell.

Since you know so much about religion, I assume that you realize that there are many other Christian/Jews groups besides “Jews for Jesus”. There are numerous Messianic Jewish organization all around the world, and the original apostles were chosen from the Jews. I fail to see anything funny about “Jews for Jesus” anyway.

Originally posted by Griff
Look. I'm not going to get into a bible quoting pissing match with you. You have your views and I have mine. Mine are based off of science and rational thinking.

Actually I have a very open mind on religion, but when asked basic facts I stick with the truth according to what is written. I certainly don’t allow personal opinion on a certain subject, for whatever reason, to change the rules of God simply because I don’t like this rule or that.

Originally posted by Griff
The thread is titled "Lutherans to allow pastors in gay relationships". Let's stick to that

You were one of the folks that goaded me off of that topic, trying to pick a fight and defend your personal twisted version of what is written in the bible. I was simply stating facts, and answering questions posted to me to the best of my knowledge and ability. It’s awfully funny to me how these “tactics” of going off topic and pressing attacks, seem to crop up in all threads that even hint at being about homosexuality. They have a very powerful lobby in the country, and it’s painfully apparent they have a bone to pick with Christians, and will do anything to try and dispute, discredit, and attack the Christian religion.

Now who was it that had an agenda again?
I have no problem with staying on target, but I will defend myself if attacked, and I will answer questions if posed to me.

Defcon,

Everything you said is of your interpretation of the bible. My interpretation is different. I will agree to disagree. Who's to say who is right and who is wrong? You?

Originally posted by defcon5
They have a very powerful lobby in the country, and it’s painfully apparent they have a bone to pick with Christians, and will do anything to try and dispute, discredit, and attack the Christian religion.

Actually, I know many gay Christians. Why would they want to attack their own religion? Or do you see any kind of questioning as an attack?

Now who was it that had an agenda again?

My agenda is to stop being hated by the "most loving religion" and stop being attacked. Want to really see what it's like to be attacked? Act gay for a month and find out how it feels. Then you might understand why gay people have a hard time accepting that your religion is so wonderful.

It's people like this that give you a bad image.

en.wikipedia.org...

Personally, I think this is a pretty big step forwards, and I agree with the posters who have said that christianity is about christ - it's not about some romans interpretation of it, or any other interpretation for that matter.

As for me, I believe that if you try to follow the 10, and try to follow the teachings of jesus, then you won't go far wrong in life - regardless of whether you believe in god or not.

Hate is a vile thing in any form, ad it's being going on too long in the various denominations.

Originally posted by Griff
Actually, I know many gay Christians. Why would they want to attack their own religion? Or do you see any kind of questioning as an attack?

No the thing I consider an attack, is when I simply state the facts about a certain church (in this case the ELCA), how they were formed, and that they do not represent the main accepted body of the Lutheran Church, and I get a bunch of flames in reply.

Let me give you an even better example. A local TV station, here in Florida, runs a pastors show at night as a paid programming event. This pastor basically takes calls from people and prays for them, he really does not preach very often. When he first started out, he had several ex-gay lifestyle people, who were now Christians, that would call the show to talk and request prayers. The Homosexual lobby in this area started calling the TV station wanting to know who the shows sponsors were so they could show up, picket them, and embarrass the sponsors businesses into no longer funding the air time. They did this because they did not like the idea that there were reformed homosexuals, who had come back to Christianity. The show is still on to this day, simply because it is funded by individual Christians, and there are no business for them to go picket. Maybe you don’t know this not living in Florida, but when I say picket, that usually entails them simulating sexual situations to some degree in front of the business.

That is an attack, it is the types of attacks that are constantly being pushed on the Christian Church as there is a very militant, organized group out there who absolutely hates Christianity.

Originally posted by Griff
It's people like this that give you a bad image.

That is an independent Baptist Church. If you look through some of my other posts on the topic of religion you will see what my feelings are toward many of these Independent Baptist and Fundamentalist churches. Most of them are formed by someone who registers to be a pastor with the state, then starts his own church. These pastors often have ZERO seminary training, and ZERO oversight from a larger parent organization. The pastors in these cult type settings pretty much speak as though they are the voice of God on earth, and whatever they say goes with their parishioners. This is not the type of Church I have ever supported or belonged too, and I do not feel that they represent the majority of Christianity in their behavior.

To me, if someone wants to do something, it’s not my place to tell them they cannot. I can tell them that it’s wrong in the estimation of the Bible, but generally I would only do that if they ask. I would never tell someone they are going to burn in hell for committing a sin, as it’s not what I believe. What I do believe though is that there are specific rules that God laid out, and if you break them then you have sinned. Sinning in itself does not damn anyone to hell, however, as long as they repent, and receive forgiveness for it. See this is the part about judgment that you did not understand; that if someone says they repent, I cannot judge in their heart and tell if they did or not. If they said they did, and I “threw the first stone”, then I would be the one in trouble with God, not them. Two exceptions to this are: Governments who are allowed by God to exact punishment justly on behalf society when someone does wrong, and Churches who are allowed to excommunicate a repeated, unrepentant sinners to protect their other parishioners from following suit.

So to me, if its what they want to do, then its their decision; however if I am asked, then yes it is a sin according to the Bible. No attack on my part, but I guarantee that I will be attacked in return for telling the truth.

[edit on 8/15/2007 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
So to me, if its what they want to do, then its their decision; however if I am asked, then yes it is a sin according to the Bible. No attack on my part, but I guarantee that I will be attacked in return for telling the truth.

I will not attack. Thanks for explaining it more. You're one of the very few true Christians out there. As long as you actually do in real life what you say you do here. I'm not saying you don't but I have met many who do not practice what they preach.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Griff
I will not attack. Thanks for explaining it more. You're one of the very few true Christians out there. As long as you actually do in real life what you say you do here. I'm not saying you don't but I have met many who do not practice what they preach.

Thanks, I am glad we could work that out. Maybe I was not explaining myself well in the beginning.
In this medium, it can sometimes be hard to convey something the same as it is in person. I am a pretty accepting person in RL, but I love discussing topics of theology, and will defend my beliefs and religion when need be. I have done so with people of totally different lifestyles and beliefs, and in face to face discussions, there has never been any offence taken by either party that I am aware of. So I do try and practice what I preach; on here though, it may not always come out in the intended manner.

Originally posted by defcon5
on here though, it may not always come out in the intended manner.

I know what you mean. I am rarely able to get the exact meaning of what I want to portray on here. Take care.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
It's not a harndened heart, it's an open mind that's willing to question things that we think don't make any sense. Isn't that a God given ability?

Actually the opposite is true. Someone with a hardened heart sees things on that topic with a closed mind out of hate or anger toward whatever the subject is that they have a hardened heart against.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
Plus um, 'Judge not, lest ye be judged' ring a bell?

Hm, I don’t recall judging anyone…
Maybe you’re talking about yourself as you seem to be judging me.
As a matter of fact, I recall saying that all men are sinners, including all Christians.

Okay, #1 if anyone is being closed minded and angry, it's YOU. I do not have a closed mind on religion. And how exactly have I been judging you? I thought we were having an itelligent discussion. I never meant to place judgement.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
Okay, #1 if anyone is being closed minded and angry, it's YOU.

First off I am not angry in the slightest, though I do get tired sometimes of people attacking Christianity constantly. If you think I am close minded then maybe you should go back and read some of my other posts on religion. I think that I have a pretty good track record on trying to learn other folks religious perspectives, whether I personally accept them or not.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
I do not have a closed mind on religion. And how exactly have I been judging you?

I took your remark as being directed at me specifically, though perhaps I misunderstood your intent.

Originally posted by HeadFirstForHalos
I thought we were having an itelligent discussion. I never meant to place judgement.

Ok then carry on with the discussion, I am sorry if I got us off track.

BTW technically being closed minded is not really the true definition of having a hardened heart, but it could be a side effect of it. In the Bible its meant more as a rejecting heart, or a heart that does not allow the Spirit of God to work within it, and therefore it cannot properly interpret the Word. In other words, I as a person cannot change a persons heart no matter how good or logical of a debate I post, only the Holy Spirit can work to change a mans heart. That is why I think some Christian organizations who beat topics to death and ram them down peoples throats are wrong, because they cannot force someone to change what is in their heart. There are specific verses in the Bible which agree with what it is I am saying here, such as:

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Basically this says exactly the same thing, there is no point in perusing someone who rejects you, as you as a person cannot change their heart. The best you can do is pray that God changes their heart. Some of these Fundamentalist groups, such as the one posted above, do in fact need to learn this lesson.