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Lutherans to allow pastors in gay relationships

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posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:31 PM
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What will the churches accept next? My personal beliefs aside, where are we headed? This so called path of tolerence, acceptence, and enlightenment may be popular but may not be in our best interests.

Its funny that Christians are portraid as "sheep" following blindly what the bible tells them. I might add non Christians are following blindly what the media and enlightened majority tell them.

Tell millions of children in Africa born with AIDs that it is no ones business what people do with their personal life. (straight or not) I have found that God's advice in the bible was for our benefit to protect us.




posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:46 PM
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I think we need to understand the bible.

No where does it say Christians should discriminate another person or persons, it preaches acceptance, peace, trust, love and forgiveness.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by crsb123
What will the churches accept next?

^^^hopefully everything cause in this country, the law bows to the church in a lot of instances

I might add non Christians are following blindly what the media and enlightened majority tell them.

^^^^^how do you mean? i don't follow what anyone tells me. i do what i want to do, when i want to do it. AND, sometimes i pay for it but i follow my own rules.


Tell millions of children in Africa born with AIDs that it is no ones business what people do with their personal life. (straight or not) I have found that God's advice in the bible was for our benefit to protect us.



who do i call in africa to inform them that is is no ones business what others do with their lives....?
i don't know what that has to do with anything but ok.

gods(if there is a god) advice may well be to protect 'us'..fantastic. don't mean i or anyone else has to follow it though.
imo, the church should accept any and all, or go the hell away



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
I think we need to understand the bible.

No where does it say Christians should discriminate another person or persons, it preaches acceptance, peace, trust, love and forgiveness.


thats the convenience to it. there is more than one version of the bible, more than one denomination, and they all interprit differently.

they're always right



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by HooHaa
Well thats just great! I for one find this disturbing to say the least. No im not a homophobe because nothing about them scares me I just dont like it!


Then you are a homo hater. Which, IMO, is worse. Sad.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Boondock78
thats the convenience to it. there is more than one version of the bible, more than one denomination, and they all interprit differently.

they're always right


thats the problem.

the Bible, like the Qur'an, needs to be taken out of the hands of extremists. all religions will have a radical sect, but it's the job of the moderates to make their voice the loudest and strongest.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by infinite
I think we need to understand the bible.

No where does it say Christians should discriminate another person or persons, it preaches acceptance, peace, trust, love and forgiveness.


*Bill Lumbergh voice* Yeah... I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there.

OT

Exodus 22:19
Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:20
He that sacreficeth unto any God, save unto the Lord only, he shall be
utterly destroyed.

Exodus 31:14
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you. every one
that defileth it shall surely be put to death...

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a
holy day, a sabbath of rest to the lord: whosoever doeth work therein
shall be put to death.

Leviticus 20:2
...Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that
sojurn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall
surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Leviticus 21:9
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the
whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Deuteronomy 22:22
If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall
both of them die...

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto a husband, and a man find her
in the city, and lie with her; then ye shall bring them both out unto the
gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die...

I Kings 21:10
...Thou didst blaspheme God and the King. And then carry him out, and stone
him that he might die.

NT

Matthew 15:4
...He that curseth father or mother: let him die the death

Joshua 6
Detailad instructions on how to deseign, then destroy, jerico.
Results:
Joshua 6:21
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, bith man and women,
young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 10:32
And the Lord delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel, which took it on the
second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls that
were therein, according to all that he had done to Libnah

Joshua 10:37
[same thing, this time to Hebron]

Joshua 10:39
[same thing, this time to Debir]

Joshua 10:40
[same again, this time to hills and springs and all that breathed]


Theres plenty of intolerance and outright genocide in the bible. Personally, I believe the ancient astronaut theory; Homosapiens were created as a worker race with a combination of true human genes mixed with primate (Sumer). The being known as Jehovah came later and manipulated the peoples. Still later came the divine being, Yeshua (Jesus).



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 05:10 PM
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Well Excuisite, I'm glad you put ONE quote from the NT in there, that is what Jesus taught. Too bad you quoted it improperly. Jesus was talking about what the Pharisees were preaching, not what he was:

NIV:

4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 05:52 PM
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Intrepid, thanks for correcting me and putting things in context. It does further illustrate the divide between many of Yeshua's teachings, and many of the Scriptures of the Old testament.

This is why I often times view the Bible as a rather skewed historical reference; it has been altered so many times and for such varied reasons that often times it is hard to really ascertain an understanding of the original meaning.

I usually just stick to the words of the Kristos and let the theologians deal with the rest. Although Exodus and Numbers are pretty fun for theorizing about Ancient ET's


Exodus
Splendor Appears In The Craft
16:10 And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.
Glory is directly associated with the flying craft. The thundercloud-like object flies into the encampment of the Israelis from the desert.

Moses Entered The Vehicle
24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
Moses goes up to the craft that is covering the mountain and enters it. Though not the only instance of men entering this craft, it is the first, thus lending more credence to the physical aspects of the craft since it will accommodate humans.

Yhovah Descends And Hovers
34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord
Yhovah descends and places himself there.

The Hovering Vehicle Glory And Light
40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.. 36 And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys: 37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the Lord was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.
The flying object remained in the presence of the nation wherever it went.

Numbers
The Vehicle Provides Shade And Light
9:16 So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.
The vehicle provides shade during the day and illumination at night.

The Vehicle Ascends And Hovers
9:17 And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed: and in the place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their tents.
The people camp until the vehicle ascends and moves and resets the camp where it stops and hovers.

The Vehicle Hovers For Days
9:18 At the commandment of the Lord the children of Israel journeyed, and at the commandment of the Lord they pitched: as long as the cloud abode upon the tabernacle they rested in their tents. 19 And when the cloud tarried long upon the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of the Lord, and journeyed not.
The people do not travel unless the vehicle moves.

The Vehicle Flies Day And Night
9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed.
Whether day or night the people respond to the movements of the vehicle.

The Vehicle Hovers For Months
9: 22 Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud tarried upon the tabernacle, remaining hereon, the children of Israel abode in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up, they journeyed.
It is made clear that the movement of the people is dependent on the flight of the craft. The word ' upon ', when used in the preceding text, is taken from the word ' al ' which means above or over. This means that the craft is hovering in the air over the tabernacle for as much as a year at a time. When it ascends higher and flies off, they follow it.

Takeoff And Landing
10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. 12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.
A pattern of moving from place to place that goes on for forty years, following the ascending and descending craft.

Yhovah Hovers Over
10:34 And the cloud of the Lord was upon them by day, when they went out of the camp.
The craft is hovering over as they are breaking camp.

More at BibleUfo.com



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 08:09 PM
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I don't think that it is a radical, hateful or mean spirited position to take to believe that if you are allowing your clergy to knowingly and willfully engage in behavior that is explicitly forbidden in both the Old and New Testament that your religion is not Christian.

I have no problem at all with Lutherans having homosexual clergy. If they are ACTIVE homosexuals and that is condoned by the Lutheran church than I would respectfully suggest that they consider themselves to be inspired by Christs teachings (as opposed to being Christians), similar to Unitarians.

It has NOTHING to do with being bigoted, homophobic or hating homosexuals. It is an obvious and clear question of defining terms.

Eric



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 09:03 PM
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I realize that this may be a popular concept in the current society, but being a Lutheran myself let me clarify a couple of things on this subject...

First off, there are 3 main synods of Lutherans in the US, there may be more outside the US, but I am not familiar with them. The main US Lutheran Synods are the Wisconsin and Missouri Synods, Wisconsin being the strictest. In the late 70’s, there was a group within the Lutheran Church that became involved in the Charismatic Movement, and was excommunicated. This group went off and founded the Evangelical Lutheran Church.

No Lutheran that I know of considers members of the ELCA to be a true Lutheran. They believe in things that go against the basic tenets of Martin Luther. While its true that Lutherans in general are more accepting and more lenient then many other churches, I don’t see them ever accepting Homosexuality as they are pretty strict about interpretation of the Bible.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 07:23 AM
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Hm. I think maybe some are misinterpreting what I've written earlier here. I believe homosexuality is wrong *BUT* persecution of homosexuals is ALSO wrong. In fact, I support the concept of gay marriage. Nevertheless, I do not think homosexuals should be allowed to be clergy because this is hypocrisy of the highest order.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by EricD
If they are ACTIVE homosexuals and that is condoned by the Lutheran church than I would respectfully suggest that they consider themselves to be inspired by Christs teachings (as opposed to being Christians), similar to Unitarians.


Since Jesus Christ never spoke about homosexuality, maybe the "Christians" should take your advice and call themselves something else. Like Paulians or something. Since Paul is the one who condemns homosexuality instead of Christ.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Griff
Since Jesus Christ never spoke about homosexuality, maybe the "Christians" should take your advice and call themselves something else. Like Paulians or something. Since Paul is the one who condemns homosexuality instead of Christ.


Christ spoke out a few times against fornication and adultery. Homosexuality falls within the definition of fornication as a true marriage relationship is defined in the Old Testament laws. Christ also said that he came not to “destroy the law of God, but to fulfill it” (Mat 5:17); meaning that he followed the original Hebrew laws of God, which included many in reference to homosexuality. So though he might not have spoken on the topic directly, he certainly addressed it indirectly.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Christ spoke out a few times against fornication and adultery. Homosexuality falls within the definition of fornication as a true marriage relationship is defined in the Old Testament laws. .


can you explain this more? i am totally ignorant on the bible texts.

how exactly does fornication fall in with homosexuality?

do we follow the new testament, the old, the king james version?



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Christ spoke out a few times against fornication and adultery. Homosexuality falls within the definition of fornication as a true marriage relationship is defined in the Old Testament laws. Christ also said that he came not to “destroy the law of God, but to fulfill it” (Mat 5:17); meaning that he followed the original Hebrew laws of God, which included many in reference to homosexuality. So though he might not have spoken on the topic directly, he certainly addressed it indirectly.


I'd like to know Jesus's stand on slavery. How about sewing different seeds in the same field? How should I burn my Ox on the alter? Can I eat shellfish? Play football (touch the skin of a pig)? Stone my neighbor for working on Saturday? Etc. Etc.

The arguement that he indirectly said this and that is a poor one. Sorry.

Edit: But he did directly state to love thy neighbor. And to judge not lest ye be judged. I'd take his direct words to heart instead of someone else's misinterpretation of what he ment. Thanks.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Griff]

[edit on 8/14/2007 by Griff]



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
Lutherans..Are'ntt hey the ones who's beliefs are founded From Martin Luther doing
something radical and going against the Catholic church back in the day?

[edit on 8/12/2007 by iori_komei]


yes, basically formed to criticise certain theological themes of the church, but then became the main force of what became later the basis of religious freedom in europe.
BUT Luther was a very hardboiled´witch´hunter and antisemitic, too.
nobody´s perfect.

nowadays, its absolutely positive development, that Protestant priests and female priests are allowed to marry and have children.
AND are allowed to do their job.


just look at the thousands of cases of child abuse by catholic priests.
just that.
church authorities have KNOWINGLY hold their hands above that. Just in recent years this was OFFICIALLY changed. sometimes.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 01:04 PM
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I really ought to be asleep already but I will try and answer these quickly. Any follow ups will be later on, so I hope this explains this for you.


Originally posted by Boondock78
How exactly does fornication fall in with homosexuality?

Fornication is performing any sex act outside of a marriage and some that were considered to be not acceptable even within a marriage. Adultery is specifically having sex with someone who is not your husband/wife. The Marriage relationship is one that must be able to “Be fruitful and multiply” according to the first commandment God gave to all creation in Genesis. Christ spoke out about Fornication and adultery several times, including here:


Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


So obviously in Christ’s estimation both of these things were sinful.


Originally posted by Boondock78
do we follow the new testament, the old, the king james version?


Originally posted by Griff
I'd like to know Jesus's stand on slavery. How about sewing different seeds in the same field? How should I burn my Ox on the alter? Can I eat shellfish? Play football (touch the skin of a pig)? Stone my neighbor for working on Saturday? Etc. Etc.


I am going to address these together as they are somewhat interrelated.

We are to follow the New Testament as Christians, but there are some Old Testament things which still apply such as the Ten Commandments. One of the Ten Commandments Is ‘Thou shalt not commit Adultery”. Now there are many things in the Old Testament which are man made Jewish Laws, or places where the Jews went well beyond what God had intended in his commandments. This is why we are supposed to still “Remember the Sabath Day and Keep it Holy” yet we are not supposed to not do anything at all, even if its helping another person on the Sabath Day. That is just one instance were the Jews went overboard with their interpretation of the Law, which is why many Jews don’t even follow all the Jewish Laws. There are many cleanliness Laws, Sacrificial Laws, and other Laws which no longer apply, and there are far too many of these for me to go through them and the reasoning why each no longer applies here.

Oh, and Griff Slavery falls into the realm of laws that God allows governments to make, same as holding a person in prison for various reasons. Also you don’t need to burn your Ox anymore because Christ made the ultimate sacrifice for sin and the Jewish Animal Sacrifice is no longer required for the forgiveness of sins. The other two I covered a bit above…



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 01:19 PM
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So, by your own admition, we are able to pick and choose which of the old testament laws we need to follow. Got it. Thanks for clearing that one up. /sarcasm.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Now there are many things in the Old Testament which are man made Jewish Laws, or places where the Jews went well beyond what God had intended in his commandments.


And you know exactly which ones to pick and choose from. And of course you know what God had intended in his commandments.

Let's go through his commandments.

1. 'You shall have no other gods before Me.

Seems resonable. Other than Christians worshiping Mother Mary.

2. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

No carvings (idols). There goes the cross. That Jesus fish thingy. Etc. etc.

3. 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

Ok. Vain comes from vanity. That means to not consider yourself better than others because you use God as a defense. At least my interpretation of it. Seems alot of Christians could re-read this one.

4. 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Sounds easy right? Not so. The Sabatt is actually Saturday and not Sunday. Do we keep Saturday holy?

5. 'Honor your father and your mother.'

Another easy one right? Nope. What if momsy goes a little insane and tells you to kill? Which leads to the next one.

6. 'You shall not murder.'

But, Lord, what if we are at war?

7. 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Since gay people can't marry...you figure out the rest.

8. 'You shall not steal.'

So, Robin Hood is going to hell also. But, we were taught he was the good guy?

9. 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

People NEVER do that.

10. 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

To covet means to envy.

Now, let's hear what Jesus had to say about the commandments.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

Just a little sermon for those who need it.

BTW, number 6 is interesting because in other parts of the bible, God tells us to kill sometimes. Like witches, our enemies etc. etc. Hmmmm...



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