Think about this?

where to start..... it is legal for the pole-leaz to do survailance and wiretapping with -out a warrant (thank u patriot acts), supreme court says RANDOM roadblocks are legal, pole-leaz doo not need to wait for u to answer the door for ANY warrant, (thank u supreme court) foreigners get fingerprinted and photgraphed when coming to the u.s. and u.s civilians will now have a threat assestment and be color coded for flights, (soon we will be fingerprinted and photographed also), background checks for guns and employment, govt try to keep guns out of the civilan population...the govt is passing more and more 'laws' so they can keep the population in check and undercontrol.
the govt wants u to think that 'if u don't have anything to hide, u should care'.. that is the attitude that people who don't care about America think. do u know everybody in your neighborhood?? at your work place, on the road? u may just get caught up in a 'sweep' and how many 'sweeps' will there be?how would u feel about a home search around 10:30 pm? a vehicale search when u've got 10 mins to be at work? how about one after grocery shopping? how about the police coming to your house 'cause u asked aabout a flight simulator game for your child? 'I've got nothing to hide so i don't care'
so, the loss of our American freedoms continues and the u.s. population does nothing..why, because they think they have nothing to hide..but just because u think u have nothing to hide does not mean that the govt does.. u are guilty untill u prove your innocense.
i think a civil war or revolution or a major war in the u.s. would be a good thing.. the u.s. population is so niavie, manipulated, lied to, used and weak that we can only keep going down-hill unless.............

Originally posted by ThePook

Originally posted by tracer
these are just the thoughts that run through my mind as I see our freedoms disintegrate day by day and wonder where it will all end up.

Civil war

I live down under but i would come fight against you guys losing your freedom... i dont like the way the US is moving and if you guys lose your freedoms we down here will surely be close behind

Originally posted by Venus

My deepest apologies BUT....WHOSE FAULT IS THAT? These freedoms were not taken away to hurt you or me....they are to PROTECT ALL OF US. Same with every other example given here......NOTHING has been taken away from any of us to hurt or control....just sounds like more of the same old "poor me, poor me crap"

Let's put things the other way around for a moment. Lets say that you're ethnically European, rather than having a darker skintone. Wouldn't you pitch a fit if suddenly you had cops showing up because your family was gathering at your house after the passing of a relative? Wouldn't you pitch a fit if people didn't trust you because you were in public in your ethnic dress? Wouldn't you pitch a fit if other people avoided you because you look like you're one of "them"?

These things might be here to protect, but they further the rift between the races and religions of the planet.

Originally posted by specialasianX

Originally posted by ThePook

Originally posted by tracer
these are just the thoughts that run through my mind as I see our freedoms disintegrate day by day and wonder where it will all end up.

Civil war

I live down under but i would come fight against you guys losing your freedom... i dont like the way the US is moving and if you guys lose your freedoms we down here will surely be close behind

I hope things don't decline that far, but I'm glad that other people actually care about human rights and the conditions of other countries. Mad props specialasianX

Lately Ive felt like shouting just that from the roof tops...Whenever I start my rant to my friends about this they look at me like Im a crazed maniac. Well I am cause ITS TRUE.. Is anyone else paying attention...slowly methodically "they" are removing our rights and liberties 1 by 1. Look I know smoking bothers people, but to tell people they cant smoke in a BAR>??? what is next... you cant drink in a bar???


It used to be you came to america conformed to Americans and became an AMERICAN. Now, we have cater to immagrants and sympathize with their beliefs,..be sensitive to their cultures and ways...wipe the brow of every F'ing "non" this or that ...WE AMERICANS must tread lightly as not to OFFEND our newbies....WHAT the HEll IS this.....
press 1 for spanishh 2 for french hold on the line for ...
Welcome to AMERICA NOW SPEAK ENGLISH (*#&#&&er!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dont feel left out xxKristen, thats a constant with me, I constantly am telling people everywhere and everyday about the injustices that are being carried out on us and get lots of looks and tirades that my mind is not correct. But thats fine with me because you would be surprised at the amount of people who I have conversed with on these subjects, and the best part is that there are many who have began to wake up and began to question and search for evidence of what I tell them. Thats the best part, when people come around and get involved and thats what we need, people getting involved willing to stand up and make change happen in whatever capacity they are capable of doing .

Originally posted by xxKristinexx

It used to be you came to america conformed to Americans and became an AMERICAN. Now, we have cater to immagrants and sympathize with their beliefs,..be sensitive to their cultures and ways...wipe the brow of every F'ing "non" this or that ...WE AMERICANS must tread lightly as not to OFFEND our newbies....WHAT the HEll IS this.....
press 1 for spanishh 2 for french hold on the line for ...
Welcome to AMERICA NOW SPEAK ENGLISH (*#&#&&er!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure if I am taking your comment out of context but that seems pretty wrong for a country that was built on immigration to not sympathize with the immigrants who come here (*the legal way). I hate the word sympathize though..cuz I don't think anyone is looking for sympathy....it more like equality.

I am in full agreement with you on the language issue. Everyone says I speak with a Brooklyn accent...but English is my first language since I came from an English speaking country so I never experience the language barrier issue. This is the USA the official language is English....everyone who comes here SHOULD speak english. Most foreignors who come here do speak english, it only and mainly the spanish speaking ones who come here with no english vocabulary. I don't agree with the "press #1 for spanish, press #2 for french crap on every company's phone line. it is a little too much...for anyone.

BUT I still feel Americans should be tolerant to the way people dress and look and what they believe in.

Those are the principle beliefs that this country was founded on. I am sure the Orthodox Jews were strange looking to the English and Irish immigrants who started this country...but they are accepted...

People need to realize that BAD people come in every different color, race, sex, nationality, religion, etc, etc. When we start to differentiate Good and Bad by one of these factors, we start to lose sight of what is really BAD, we become blinded by preconcieved notions and the true BAD is allowed to carry on in their evil ways while the good get persecuted.

I consider myself American even though I wasn't born here. I have lived in this country since I was 9 when I became a citizen, and everything in my life has and is being influenced by America. I grew up in Brooklyn, worked in WTC, lived in Virginia, lived in Texas, lived in Florida, and New York. I vote, I pay taxes, I am actively involved in my community......so why da hell can I not be free to celebrate my culture and why should I not be treated equally as any other American????

*when I say the legal way, I do not mean this #ty Bush plan. I mean people who follow all the steps, applying from within their countries, waiting years for a interview, paying the necessary fee, get a green card, live and work and become voting citizens.

I hate to say it, but skin color is still a huge factor in this country....

sorry I brought this up, but I hate the race issue, I am a strong believer that race and skin color should have not matter in this world.

Originally posted by tracer
Venus, why do you need the government to protect you ? Me I dont need all the laws and bills they are passing, supposedly for our protections, I want my freedoms intact, as I am sure most other people do, if you buy into that line that these laws are to protect us , you may be the one who needs help. As for your statement that I need help, Could you please explain exacly why I need help? Oh I know, you must be one of those people who dont believe that their is anything like an NWO or that we will never see Martial Law in this country, Venus you may be the very one that needs help or should I say will need it one day when you little protected world comes crashing down around you.

I was commenting on your paranoia. Do you honestly believe these road blocks are to keep tabs on you? I don't. I think they are to protect me and my family and my neighborhood from harm......and YES, I do need the governments protection. I am very thankful to be an American and appreciate what my country does for me.

Originally posted by worldwatcher

maybe you don't understand but before 9/11 this never happened to me, ....so I have basically lost my freedom to be proud of my ethnicity...

No....I think it is YOU that doesn't understand. Before 9/11 none of us had these things happen to us. This is not OUR governments fault. What they are doing in airports is protecting all of us. I am actually very happy to hear you get stopped because of the color of your skin. That means they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. If you appear suspicious it's probably because of your attitude and your attempt to NOT LOOK suspicious. Maybe you should march right up to the counter in your ethnic garb and show you have nothing to hide. This might get you thru the lines faster

Patriot Act facts


* USA Patriot Act stands for United and Strengthening of America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act.

* The 242-page document passed the House 357-66 and the Senate 98-1 and was signed into law by President Bush on Oct. 26, 2001, just 45 days after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

* Some provisions of the law will expire in 2005 and require action by Congress to be renewed.

Major provisions

* Allows surveillance in cases when foreign intelligence is a "significant purpose" of an investigation, a lower standard than the previous "primary purpose."

* Allows law enforcement to share grand jury and wiretap information regarding foreign intelligence without first obtaining a court order.

* Makes it easier for law enforcement to enlist the help of third parties, such as landlords, in conducting court-ordered surveillance.

* Permits the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to authorize physical searches and electronic surveillance of foreign powers' employees for up to 120 days, compared with 45 days previously, and allows extensions of up to a year.

Source: U.S. Department of Justice; Detroit News research

HOW DOES THIS INFRINGE ON ANY OF YOUR FREEDOMS?

In a report issued last month, the ACLU documented a consistent pattern of factually inaccurate assertions by the Justice Department in statements about the PATRIOT Act to the media and Congress. For instance, Justice Department spokespeople have repeatedly � and mistakenly � said that Section 215 of the law, which vastly expands the power of FBI agents to secretly obtain records and personal belongings of innocent people, does not apply to United States citizens and permanent residents. The new DOJ website fails to correct this mistake. That report is available online at www.aclu.org...

The Justice Department website is more of the same, the ACLU said. Specific instances of DOJ online spin-doctoring, detailed further at www.aclu.org, include:

DOJ Myth: Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act can only be used to obtain �business records.�

Reality: The FBI can use Section 215 to demand �any tangible thing,� including books, letters, diaries, library records, medical and psychiatric records, financial information, membership lists of religious institutions, and even -- as Attorney General Ashcroft himself conceded in testimony before Congress -- genetic information.

DOJ Myth: Before the Patriot Act, �the FBI could get a wiretap to investigate the mafia, but they could not get one to investigate terrorists.�

Reality: The FBI has always had the authority to wiretap terrorists, both under the ordinary criminal laws and under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

DOJ Myth: The �sneak-and-peek� provision (Section 213) is necessary to allow the FBI to conduct investigations �without tipping off terrorists.�

Reality: The FBI already had the authority to conduct �sneak-and-peek� searches of terrorists. Under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the FBI is empowered to conduct sneak-and-peek searches in intelligence investigations involving foreign powers and their agents. A �foreign power� includes any group �engaged in international terrorism or activities in preparation therefor.� Section 213 authorizes sneak-and-peek searches in run-of-the-mill criminal investigations, not just in foreign-intelligence investigations involving terrorists.

DOJ Myth: The PATRIOT Act �provided for only modest, incremental changes in the law.�

Reality: The PATRIOT Act made dozens of significant changes to the law, including a handful that are truly radical. For more details on how the PATRIOT Act undermines the constitutional rights of everyone living in the United States, go to www.aclu.org...

�The PATRIOT Act described on the Justice Department�s website bears only a passing resemblance to the actual PATRIOT Act,� said Jameel Jaffer, an ACLU staff attorney who analyzed the DOJ website. �It�s unfortunate, because what the public needs is accurate information about the scope and nature of the Act, not a snow job.�

Ted Koppel On The Dangers Of The Patriot Act
This program was broadcast on September 4, 2003 at 11:30 pm.

Ted Koppel put together an amazing Nightline where he interviewed folks from the ACLU and the Justice Department, among others -- and was able to paint a frighteningly accurate picture of the Patriot Act and its new bastard brother, the Victory Act.

If you've only got a minute, at least watch his closing thoughts on the matter. (Small - 3 MB) (Links to the complete program are located below.)



The men who drafted our constitution, who framed our civil rights and protected our various freedoms under the law would, I suspect, retch at some of the bone headed, self-serving, misinterpretations of their intentions that they so often use these days to undermine the very freedoms they pretend to safeguard. The miracle of American Law is not that it protects popular speech, or the privacy of the powerful, or the homes of the priviledged, but rather, that the least among us, those with the fewest defenses thoses suspected of the worst crimes -- the most despised in our midst, are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

That remains as revolutionary a concept now as it was in the 1780s. It makes protecting the country against terrorism excruciatingly difficult, but we cannot arbitrarily suspend the rights of one catagory of suspects without endangering all the others.




Also of particular interest was the interview with Barbara Comstock, Director of Public Affairs for the Justice Department. Ted Koppel wanted to know why everything had to be kept secret. Why your medical records could be obtained without your being notified, etc. She kept bringing up the "al qaeda safe house," which Ted finally told her "your floggin that Al Queda safe house to death Ms. Comstock."

Ted also had to keep correcting Comstock by inserting the word "suspected" when she was talking about who the Patriot Act was being routinely used against. ("Suspected" terrorists and "suspected" enemy combatants.) She just couldn't stop forgetting that these people were only suspects. That whole innocent until proven guilty thing kept slipping her mind.

Did you notice that all your info in connected to the ACLU? See.....that's your problem

If people don't start looking past what is right in from of them they will never see the truth. The ACLU is doing everything it can to mess up America. Can't see that, can you?

Okay Venus, my paranoia, there just may come a time when paranoia may save your life, whether you believe that or not, I do! Of course you dont believe it, you buy all the candy-coated bull that the government feeds you, thats obvious by your statements. And I did not say that roadblocks are to keep tabs on anyone, I said they want people used to the police presence, although I imagine keeping tabs on people may be part of it too. The Patriot Act, if its such a great thing, why was it pushed through Congress with out them being allowed to read or comment on it, all done secretive like, instead of the way the laws and bills were meant to be passed.? Come on and wake up, have you not read some of the threads on this Act? When comes the time you cant walk down the street without showing your papers, you may wake up, but its to late then!

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Ted Koppel On The Dangers Of The Patriot Act
This program was broadcast on September 4, 2003 at 11:30 pm.

Ted Koppel put together an amazing Nightline where he interviewed folks from the ACLU and the Justice Department, among others -- and was able to paint a frighteningly accurate picture of the Patriot Act and its new bastard brother, the Victory Act.

If you've only got a minute, at least watch his closing thoughts on the matter. (Small - 3 MB) (Links to the complete program are located below.)



The men who drafted our constitution, who framed our civil rights and protected our various freedoms under the law would, I suspect, retch at some of the bone headed, self-serving, misinterpretations of their intentions that they so often use these days to undermine the very freedoms they pretend to safeguard. The miracle of American Law is not that it protects popular speech, or the privacy of the powerful, or the homes of the priviledged, but rather, that the least among us, those with the fewest defenses thoses suspected of the worst crimes -- the most despised in our midst, are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

That remains as revolutionary a concept now as it was in the 1780s. It makes protecting the country against terrorism excruciatingly difficult, but we cannot arbitrarily suspend the rights of one catagory of suspects without endangering all the others.




Also of particular interest was the interview with Barbara Comstock, Director of Public Affairs for the Justice Department. Ted Koppel wanted to know why everything had to be kept secret. Why your medical records could be obtained without your being notified, etc. She kept bringing up the "al qaeda safe house," which Ted finally told her "your floggin that Al Queda safe house to death Ms. Comstock."

Ted also had to keep correcting Comstock by inserting the word "suspected" when she was talking about who the Patriot Act was being routinely used against. ("Suspected" terrorists and "suspected" enemy combatants.) She just couldn't stop forgetting that these people were only suspects. That whole innocent until proven guilty thing kept slipping her mind.

Personally, I have even less faith in the media than I do the government. The media is interested in nothing more than ratings/readership... money! ... the days of a media who served soley in the public interest are done (and I would question if those days even existed).

It does not impress me to see a TV savy person in the Liberal Media (Koppel) rail on someone who has nowhere near the media experience. Who also happens to be in a Republican administration... and I'm a Democrat!

HMMM, I have been hearing about our freedoms being taken away for at least 25 years. But I cannot think of a freedom that has really been lost. I can pretty much go anywhere I damn well please. I can buy guns,knives,cars whatever. Hell I can even shop around to get the best deal. Point is nobody can pick out a specific freedom that has actually been lost.
The Patriot act is a necassary evil. You talk about the constitution being trampled on. How do think the founding fatheres would have re-acted to 9/11? If you think what is going on now is bad,it is nothing compared to what they would have done. If you think Bush is a religous zealot,he is nothing compared to our founding fathers. Our constitution was written a very long time ago. They had no idea things like planes being flown into towers would happen. They did not know about suicide bombers. My guess is the constitution would be very differant if they had forseen events like these.
I have time under my belt,I am as free now,as I was on the day I was born. Almost 40 years ago. In fact we may actually be more free. Back then you did not question what the government did. Now you can. Might not like the answers,but you will not be locked up for asking.

your rights are only taken if u allow them to be taken, u still have the right to do it, don't let someone tell u u can't live

just reading one page of this thread easily shows how divided Americans are. There are those who think this Patriot Act is a "necessary evil" and those who think it is just "evil"

Regardless, I have already stated my opinion and stance on this subject. I never had any intentions to change anyone's view on this nor will I change my view.
However, I find it needless and pointless to continue this discussion. There are two sides to every story and we have discussed both. Now we just have to go to the polls and decide which path we would like to follow.

I realize I am and will always remain in the minority but hopefully people will see beyond the "veil of necessary protection" that is being offered by this govt and come to realize that civil liberties are being treatened, unfortunately by the time that happens, it will probably be too late.

now off to work on my short story

Originally posted by tracer
Okay Venus, my paranoia, there just may come a time when paranoia may save your life, whether you believe that or not, I do! Of course you dont believe it, you buy all the candy-coated bull that the government feeds you, thats obvious by your statements. And I did not say that roadblocks are to keep tabs on anyone, I said they want people used to the police presence, although I imagine keeping tabs on people may be part of it too. The Patriot Act, if its such a great thing, why was it pushed through Congress with out them being allowed to read or comment on it, all done secretive like, instead of the way the laws and bills were meant to be passed.? Come on and wake up, have you not read some of the threads on this Act? When comes the time you cant walk down the street without showing your papers, you may wake up, but its to late then!

Trust me buddy.....I am NO PUSH OVER and I don't buy into everything the government proposes. What I want to know is how many people have been wrongfully arrested and PROSECUTED under the Patriot Act? If the time ever comes when I can't walk down the street without showing papers........I promise to come back here and apologize but until then.......try thinking about all the things you DO HAVE the right to do because of this government

All I can say Venus is that you will just have to go on believing that things are fine, I am not trying to change your beliefs, and as for you being a pushover, nothing I said was meant to mean that and if thats how you took it I apoligize. Myself I will continue to put my faith in my beliefs and nothing you say or do will change that, just as nothing I can say will change you. WW said it well when she pointed out how divided people are on these issues of freedom. Sure we can go to the polls and vote but it dont seem to work anymore and can you be sure where your vote is going? I dont believe you can.