There were other Holocausts?

Thats what I hear but how can that be?
Well, its definitely not something that your High School teachers teach and most people think that the Holocaust is exclusive to World War 2 Jews but yes its true, there were and are other instances of a people being wiped out because of their religious beliefs or their race.
Israel really is a master of propaganda and disinformation, especially when it comes to gaining sympathy for themselves. They dont care anything about the welfare of the US or anyone else. They do care about the US's money and they would love to be able to have soul control of our Military (they probably already do)
Over the last 60 years they have succeeded in turning the worlds attention towards whatever cause that would further their own agenda or away from anything that could hurt their agenda.
I have read many times, that they believe their religion and race to be superior to any others in the world.
What I wanted to discuss today is how they have been able to use the Nazi Holocaust to gain the entire worlds attention and sympathy and create a world where it is Taboo and even dangerous to question Israels CURRENT policies or actions.
You hear it time and time again, on the radio or anywhere else in the media, anytime an American member of congress or even just a talk show host, has a problem with something that Israel does, is labeled an anti-semite or a holocaust denier.
What else could a country ask for, free reign to do whatever they want because most people are afraid to oppose them in any way because they fear being labeled anti-jewish.
I remember just 15 or so years ago, maybe a little more, when I watched or read about anything to do with the death camps and the holocaust, they placed the number of jewish deaths at around 3 million and now the ive been trying to figure out is how in 15-20 years, this number has DOUBLED and now stands at around 6 million.
Ok so lets give them the benefit of doubt and put it at 6 million. In case nobody has heard about it there was also a very devastating holocaust that just happened about 15 years prior to WW2 in Russia by the Jewish Bolsheviks against Christians, most put the number of people killed by the Bolsheviks at around 20 million but some sources that I've read put the number as high as 65 million, thats likely an exaggeration though.

After the Bolshevik takeover of Russia in 1917, a single member of Britain's Cabinet, Winston Churchill, appealed for robust military intervention to crush the new regime. His colleagues weighed the costs — the loss of soldiers, international derision, revenge by Lenin — and rejected the idea.

The costs were avoided, and instead the world was subjected to the greatest man-made calamities ever. Communism itself was to claim perhaps 100 million lives, and it also gave rise to fascism and Nazism, leading to World War II. Ahmadinejad wants to be the new Lenin. Force is the only thing that can stop him."

Source

I dont know about anyone else's education but the World History class in the High School that I went to never mentioned a word about this one.
I have heard and read different stories about why Hitler attacked Russia and started his campaign of forced immigration of the Jews out of Germany. A few stories ive read mention the Germans fear that the Jewish Bolsheviks slaughter of Christians would spill over, out of Russia and into all of Europe.
Dont get me wrong though, Im not at all defending anything that madman did and his campaign wasnt just against the jews though, he murdered many people, like Gypsies for example.

I'm going to challenge this "the Holocaust happened only to Jews" business right now. You see, there's this little matter of the Gypsies (Sinti and Roma - or Romani - as they call themselves). Katz and Yehuda Bauer - an acknowledged dean of Israeli Holocaust scholars - and others have spent quite a lot of time and energy trying to explain why the Gypsies, who were exterminated by the nazis in numbers proportionally as great or greater than the Jews, usually in the same camps and by the same methods, should not be viewed as coequal victims of the Holocaust. Their arguments are truly arcane:
The Gypsies were not defined in precisely the same way as the Jews (of course not, they were Gypsies), not slated for total extermination (actually certain groups of Jews - the Karaimes and Tats, for example, and there were others - were exempted as well), and so on. You really have to read this stuff to believe it, and even then it''s hard to wrap your mind around the idea that "respectable" scholars are producing it. The punctuation mark on this is that it's all and patently false. There's a 1938 Himmler decree placing the Gypsies on precisely the same legal footing as the Jews, to be "processed" by the SS in precisely the same way. End of distinction.

The content on that site is far to big to quote on here, so ill place the link to the website, for anyone thats interested in reading it.
The other holocausts

I still have more to say on this topic but I am out of time right now. I may follow up with more links and opinions later on tonight, depending on peoples interest in this topic.
edited to add the source pages

[edit on 7/21/2007 by Kr0n0s]

Other Holocausts:

Gypsies for sure (during and before WWII).

Armenians circa 1916. The most extensive recounting of this episode in holocaust history in a modern work is in the Mideast-based London Independent reporter Robert Fisk's 2003 book titled The Great War for Civilisation.

Groups of Africans were also secretly extensively tortured and executed by Nazis ...that was how the Nazis developed their expertise at genocide.

Rwanda in the 1990s ...that would be right after U.S. President Bill Clinton turned his back on the problem.

Darfur? Well, it's sure going that way. Stay tuned.

Geez...
American Indians ? Name a tribe, any tribe.

Just because Hitler gets the credit, doesn't
mean he was original.

Regards,
Lex

While I believe that everything said about the holocaust by mainstream media/history books is true, I do agree that sometimes the emphasis on the Jews being killed in the holocaust is unfair.

It is true tons of other people were killed by the Nazis.

Gypsies, Communists, Homosexuals, the Mentally/Physically Handicapped, Slavs, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Freemasons, and general political opponents. And if they were given more time, they would have wiped out anyone who wasn't of Germanic/Nordic decent, and possibly all Abrahamic religions, as the Nazis, believe it or not, wanted to get rid of Christianity and return to Germanic paganism.

All in all roughly 11-12 million people were killed in the camps, 6 million being Jews, so they made up the largest portion. And you cannot deny that the primary thing the Nazis hated was the Jews and Communists, in fact they related them to each other, believing that Communism itself was a created by Jews as a way of sucking money out of gentiles.

This is barely accurate. While Karl Marx was indeed ethnically Jewish, he was an atheist, as most Marxists/Communists were/are, and never did he incorporate any Jewish teachings into his Marxist ideals. So to say they are related is inaccurate so I believe it was most likely said as propaganda, as with many of the outrageous claims the Nazis made, such as Aryans coming from the “Lost City of Atlantis”, and ancient Germans creating all the wonders of the world.

Then again I wouldn't put it past some members of the SS to actually believe in such things...

Originally posted by Lexion
Geez...
American Indians ? Name a tribe, any tribe.


Regards,
Lex

Yea the American Indians for sure, even I momentarily forgot about that.
That's exactly my point, the word "Holocaust" has become synonymous with
Nazism and Jews, like one of the articles said. If you werent a jew and werent in a Nazi Camp, then you werent in a holocaust.
And yes according to some, there are many connections between communisim and jews due to their claims that Bolsheviks were jews, which may or may not be true.

[edit on 7/21/2007 by Kr0n0s]

There is some evidence that some of the Bolsheviks were Jewish and in fact took pleasure from killing the Christians...but that is due to the fact they were persecuted by Christians in Russia before, and in many places in Europe, so you cannot blame them, to be honest.

Originally posted by Kacen
While I believe that everything said about the holocaust by mainstream media/history books is true,

I stop reading for obvious reasons. :shk: You can't be serious here, right?

AAC

Originally posted by Kacen
There is some evidence that some of the Bolsheviks were Jewish and in fact took pleasure from killing the Christians...but that is due to the fact they were persecuted by Christians in Russia before, and in many places in Europe, so you cannot blame them, to be honest.

Here is another doosy. :shk: What about the Palestinians & Lebonnese, can you also not blame them for the oppressive Israeli tactics over the last few decades, which causes them to lash out?

I wonder...

AAC

as the Nazis, believe it or not, wanted to get rid of Christianity and return to Germanic paganism.

Actually Hitler and the Nazi Party corrupted Germanic Paganism and sent many of the pre Nazi practicioners to concentration camps.

Friedrich Bernhard Marby

Most of the sources on Marby are in German so I have to go with Wiki

[edit on 7/21/2007 by DarkStormCrow]

Stalin's purges and whatnot were worse than Hitler's holocaust, but you don't hear about it as much because he was our WWII ally.

And the Native Americans weren't really destroyed in a systematic way like that, it was much more decentralized.

Save for the ones conquered by the Spanish.

Originally posted by Johnmike

And the Native Americans weren't really destroyed in a systematic way like that, it was much more decentralized.

Oh really ?

Read This.
And, This.

Please.

Save for the ones conquered by the Spanish.

Ignorance must be bliss.

Sick,
Lex

Originally posted by Johnmike
Stalin's purges and whatnot were worse than Hitler's holocaust, but you don't hear about it as much because he was our WWII ally.

Yes that was true in the beginning, when Russia was our *cough* ally *cough*
but we werent allies for long. So what happened?
Whats the excuse for not hearing much about it from 1950 until now?
Because Israel is still milking it thats why, aside from their big problems with the Muslims, they gotta good thing going here.
They can damn near do or say what they want and there arent many Nations or people that will oppose them. Why? Because they are afraid that they will be labeled anti-semitic.

Originally posted by Johnmike
And the Native Americans weren't really destroyed in a systematic way like that, it was much more decentralized.
Save for the ones conquered by the Spanish.

I really dont see it that way. They were rounded up and placed in concentration camps umm i mean reservations and slaughtered by the military, cowboys or any other rednecks with guns, for many, many years.





[edit on 7/21/2007 by Kr0n0s]

What do you refer to as a holocaust?

Is genocide the same thing? If so, there have been hundreds of them in the past.

Want me to name just a few?

Here we go, down the rabbit hole.

Genocide from wiki

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group.[1] While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, the most prominent definition in international law is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Do you consider 'ethnic cleansing' the same as a holocaust? It is essentially the same thing.

Ethnic Cleansing from wiki

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory in order to create a supposedly ethnically "pure" society. The term entered English and international usage in the early 1990s to describe certain events in the former Yugoslavia. Its typical usage was developed in the Balkans, to be a less objectionable code-word meaning genocide, but its intent was to best avoid the obvious pitfalls of longstanding international treaty laws prohibiting war crimes. This Orwellian term has since become still more Orwellian, because it is occasionally used as a claim of war crimes, when no war crimes actually exist. For example, ethnic cleansing has become improperly used to describe a situation wherein poorer ethnic groups are being displaced economically, by other, generally more affluent ethnic groups.

Just to name a few:

The 'Holocaust' during WW2 which did not happen just to people of Jewish descent. Arguably, more people died who were not Jewish than were...jewish.

Yugoslavia

Rwanda

Darfur

Zimbabwe

Brazil

US- Native American genocide...We killed MILLIONS of natives either through rape and pillage, disease, or directly conquering and subjugating native peoples. This country is founded on bloodshed.

There are more...


In Armenia by the Turks during WW1
www.armeniapedia.org...


Russia

India

Basically everywhere in the world. We are all guilty and we all have blood on our hands.

More sources for those interested:

www.genocide.org...

www.ess.uwe.ac.uk...

www.historyplace.com...

www.google.com...

www.chgs.umn.edu...

www.genocidewatch.org...

Use google and search yourself

[edit on 21-7-2007 by biggie smalls]

I just wanted to start a new post to change the opinions of those who think we have never been the perpetrator of genocide.

Native American genocide still haunts US

"By conservative estimates, the population of the United states prior to European contact was greater than 12 million. Four centuries later, the count was reduced by 95% to 237 thousand.

In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead.

During American expansion into the western frontier, one primary effort to destroy the Indian way of life was the attempts of the U.S. government to make farmers and cattle ranchers of the Indians. In addition, one of the most substantial methods was the premeditated destructions of flora and fauna which the American Indians used for food and a variety of other purposes. We now also know that the Indians were intentionally exposed to smallpox by Europeans. The discovery of gold in California, early in 1848, prompted American migration and expansion into the west. The greed of Americans for money and land was rejuvenated with the Homestead Act of 1862. In California and Texas there was blatant genocide of Indians by non-Indians during certain historic periods. In California, the decrease from about a quarter of a million to less than 20,000 is primarily due to the cruelties and wholesale massacres perpetrated by the miners and early settlers

Native American genocide

An Indian named American Horse, who had been friendly to the American troops for years gave this narrative of the slaughter at Wounded Knee; "they turned their guns, Hotchkiss guns upon the women who were in the lodges standing there under a flag of truce, and of course as soon as they were fired upon they fled...There was a women with an infant in her arms who was killed as she almost touched the flag of truce, and the women and children of course were strewn all along the circular village untill they were dispatched. Right near the flag of truce a mother was shot down with her infant; the child not knowing that it's mother was dead was still nursing, and that especially was a very sad sight.

Spiritual and Cultural Genocide

Past Genocides commited against Native Americans

Ok I could site sources for days. Here's a google link to hel p you out.

And you know what is even worse? We are still killing innocents with corrupt bureacracy such as the "Bureau of Indian Affairs" and people like Jack Abramoff.

Fraud at BIA

And don't tell me every part of the government is corrupt. I know that, but that's not my point.

We are still attacking the native peoples of this continent. Get it?

The truth hurts.

Inside the Bureau of Indian Affairs

Dark days for BIA


encyclopedia.farlex.com...

In March 1997 it was reported that $2.4 billion of the funds that the BIA holds in trust for individuals and ethnic groups was missing.

BIA articles

BIA lawsuit


Here is the google link I used to search.


Wake up people. We don't live in the land of milk and honey. We live in the land of bloodshed and lies. And McDonalds of course .

[edit on 21-7-2007 by biggie smalls]

One of the reasons I think the Holocaust of WW2 is taught so much as opposed to the others (outside of the fact we dont like to look at what we did its easier to look at what others did) is Media after WW2 there was newsreels and all the Nazi documentation, so for the first time what happened really coundnt be hidden and worse it could be seen by anyone who went to a theatre. Before WW2 the media wasnt availiable en masse as it was after the war.

Originally posted by Lexion
Oh really ?

Read This.
And, This.

Please.

Ignorance must be bliss.

Sick,
Lex

The reason for that massive population decline was mainly disease. Many settlers didn't treat the Natives too well (not all), but aside from the Spanish encomienda system (slavery, sort of), there was no centralized plan put into effect to erraddicate them. The Trail of Tears was nothing close to a holocaust, as terrible as it was. It was actually a treaty signed between the United States and false Cherokee leaders. We bought their land and they agreed to relocate. The problem, however, was that it was illegal under Cherokee law to sign away land, and none of their council members had anything to do with the treaty. Congress ratified the treaty anyway, and you know the rest.

[edit on 21-7-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation

Originally posted by Kacen
There is some evidence that some of the Bolsheviks were Jewish and in fact took pleasure from killing the Christians...but that is due to the fact they were persecuted by Christians in Russia before, and in many places in Europe, so you cannot blame them, to be honest.

Here is another doosy. :shk: What about the Palestinians & Lebonnese, can you also not blame them for the oppressive Israeli tactics over the last few decades, which causes them to lash out?

I wonder...

AAC

Yes and I blame the oppressive Israeli tactics on the ways the Jews have been oppressed for so long in Europe. They are taking out all their anger on the Palestinians, feeling they after being oppressed for so long, they have a right to live there.

I'm not saying it is right, its just the Jews really want refuge and their own country where they can not be minorities anymore which makes them easily persecuted.

And of course them venting their anger out on the Palestinians leads to them being hated more, an endless cycle of hate, common aspect of human history. Sad fact.

I just wish more people thought like me rather than with their anger then conflicts could be resolved more easily.

Really I've found any negative things the Jews have done in A.D. times has been usually a response to them being persecuted in the first place, in some cases in less obvious ways.

Thank you to biggie smalls for mentioning the Armenian Genocide. For some reason it would seem most historians would like to pretend it never happen or down play it as just a simple massacre.



The list of human suffering is long. And despite what some would have you believe. People of Jewish faith are not the only ones the have been threatened with extermination. And Africans are not the only people to be enslaved.

On a side note there event in the Torah called the Midian war ( look under Book of Numbers 31 ) .

Basically in it Moses leads his people in a war against the Midianites. This war supposedly happened because the Midianites led the people of Israel to sin to sin against God.

So after the all Midian men are killed and the war is over, Moses declares the all the non-virgin women and male children be killed, leaving only virgin Midian women who then forced to become slaves.

Wow talk about scape goats. I wish every time I was bad I could just have some else take the blame for me and get wiped off the face of the earth. ( Yes, that was sarcasm done in really bad taste. )

I don't believe someone already put in the Assyrian genocide.
Well here it is:

The terrible `Assyrian Holocaust` beginning in 1918 saw nearly 2/3 of the Assyrian Christians massacred at the hands of Muslims and Kurds.

www.assyrianchristians.com...

Ok, I've been thinking a little more about this since I started this thread and have done a little more research as well.
Some of you have made very good points and brought up some very important pieces of history that some people just don't think about anymore. The initial point that I was trying to make, which prompted me to start this thread, was why have these past actions been covered up? I don't mean they have been hidden, I just mean that people just don't seem to remember them.
It seems that the incidents that are remembered, more so than others, usually use a particular word or words that stick in peoples mind.
If someone was speaking about something that happened in history and they mention the words "the ovens" or "death camps" the first thing that comes to your mind is the holocaust against the jews.
Even though, as someone mentioned, the jews werent even the initial targets of Hitlers.
The first group of people that were "cleansed" from Germany's lands were the elderly people, then came the physically disabled then the retarded people. Anyone that was not productive or was a strain on the German economy, in any way, were gassed and cremated in the ovens.
Thats what the ovens were for, they didn't use them to burn people alive, they used them to cremate people.
These people were being exterminated way before Hitler even thought about gassing the jews. In fact, from what I understand the gas chambers weren't used against the jews until all other attempts at getting rid of them failed. After Germany invaded Poland the number of jews that were in German occupied territory dramatically increased and the forced immigration couldn't keep up anymore. It was then that one of Hitlers people (cant remember his name right now) brought him a plan that he called "The Final Solution" and the plan was put into action. Extermination was no longer just reserved for the old or retarded and the gassing of the jews began.

Anyway, a lot of people, especially Americans, just havent heard or have heard and just don't care about all of the other instances of mass murder/genocide in history.
If you mention the Bolsheviks, most people (not all) will say "huh" whats that? Some people may think of a Revolution because they have heard of the Bolshevik Revolution but few people will know that it was responsible for the slaughter of about 15-25 million (the numbers vary) Russians.

Now about the Indians, if someone mentions the words "cowboys and Indians" the first thought for most Americans would probably be, scalping's and Indian raids on the whites and Indians raping white women etc..That is because of the centuries old US propaganda still stuck in Americans minds. When you mention how we stole their lands and slaughtered any of them that stood in or out of our way, you'll hear people say, well they deserved it because they did those terrible things to us and they were uncivilized and refused to conform.
lol, sorry. I tend to babble on and on when it gets late and I get tired.