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There were other Holocausts?

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posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 01:21 AM
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It is not that we can't remember them but some can't do
much about it. I mean say us for example (Assyrians)
if we were to get a city in Iraq then Assyrians will be
executed.
So why should we destroy our whole population instead
we can go to the world court and at least try there.




posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 01:39 AM
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posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 01:41 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
JEW HATING INBRED LOWLIFES SPEWING THEIR JEW HATING INBRED CRAP. I HAVE FORWARDED THIS THREAD TO THE ADL FOR THIER ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE ATS AND THE POSTER.

I have had more than enough of this crap being allowed n this site, I am positive if this was said about blacks or any other race of people it would be pulled, PULL THIS THREAD FOR RACISM NOW...


What are you talking about?

And why did you feel it necessary to post it four times?

Where do you see anyone spewing 'jew-hating' crap?

How can you be racist against a religion? I thought there wasn't a 'Jewish race'?



P.S. Last time I checked, Israel is a country not a 'people.'

There are almost as many Arabs living in Israel as Jewish people. NEWSFLASH.

Demographics



Ok I did some further research for you. Not only are there more Jews in other parts of the world besides Israel, there happen to be more in the US alone.

World Jewish Population

So it would be a lot more understandable if one were to attack America as a jewish 'infested' state than Israel.

To clarify, I love my Jewish brothers and sisters as much as I love every other people. I have no problem with any race, religion, culture, creed, sex, etc.

I have a problem with people who equate a religion with a country. This is a baseless accusation on your part. No one is spreading anti-Jew 'racism' as you call it.

The Jewish diaspora numbers over Eight (8) million, while the Israeli 'homeland' only contains about Five (5) million Jews.

Open your eyes. There are almost Three (3) more million Jewish people in America than Israel. We are the 'Jewish' homeland...


Wow I must not be able to count
.

[edit on 22-7-2007 by biggie smalls]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
JEW HATING INBRED LOWLIFES SPEWING THEIR JEW HATING INBRED CRAP. I HAVE FORWARDED THIS THREAD TO THE ADL FOR THIER ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE ATS AND THE POSTER.

I have had more than enough of this crap being allowed n this site, I am positive if this was said about blacks or any other race of people it would be pulled, PULL THIS THREAD FOR RACISM NOW...


HAHAHAHA!!!
It is 2 hours into July 22nd and you gave me my very first laugh for the day.
Thank you very much, its great to start the day out with a little humor.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
It is not that we can't remember them but some can't do
much about it.


That is a valid point Equinox99.

Another point is there are some thing that should not be forgotten or ignored for political gain.

Take the Armenian genocide. Has Turkey as government ever done anything but ignore or play down the Armenian genocide ? I know an apology will not bring back the dead. But how should we feel abut a country that tries to play off its crimes against humanity as non-event ? Then again maybe ignoring its crimes will help Turkey get into the European Union.


When ever America perpetuates or forgets an act of evil it has committed. The entire world can not wait to forget it's own ill deeds and start to label America as " The Great Evil Empire ".

I am not saying America is with out flaw or does not engage in the same type of childish finger pointing. What I'm saying is everyone does it, but act like they don't.

I have a personal belief and I may be wrong, but it goes like this. Everyone is guilty of something. From the individual to giant corporation. From a small town to the most powerful nation. Everyone has a made a mistake.

And as I see it you have two choices. You can either admit to your mistakes and learn from it to become a better person, town, country, etc. Or you can be a big jerk and make up lame reasons why it not your fault, and say thing like " How dare criticize us. You must be a anti- fill in the blank."



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
JEW HATING INBRED LOWLIFES SPEWING THEIR JEW HATING INBRED CRAP. I HAVE FORWARDED THIS THREAD TO THE ADL FOR THIER ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE ATS AND THE POSTER.

I have had more than enough of this crap being allowed n this site, I am positive if this was said about blacks or any other race of people it would be pulled, PULL THIS THREAD FOR RACISM NOW...



Give me a break. Since when has the Anti-Defamation League ever cared about the everyday Jewish American?

There only point to there existence to help rich people who pretend to be Jewish get out of trouble.

They only help people who want to abuse the Jewish faith. And I say that as the proud God-Son of a Jewish woman who helped raise me when my real mother was too drunk too care.

[edit on 22-7-2007 by DarkMile77]

[edit on 22-7-2007 by DarkMile77]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 02:57 AM
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I think the quadruple post might have been an accident due to poor internet connectivity as the posts were added within seconds of each other.

I've gone ahead and deleted the three copies.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:05 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
JEW HATING INBRED LOWLIFES SPEWING THEIR JEW HATING INBRED CRAP. I HAVE FORWARDED THIS THREAD TO THE ADL FOR THIER ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE ATS AND THE POSTER.


I think you might want to do some research. People giving their opinion on a message board is not something one "prosecutes" for. You may reply to them if you disagree with what was said. Prove them wrong. Posting a ridiculous all caps rant threatening to "prosecute" for opinions is laughable.

As for "prosecuting" ATS, I'm going to ask you ONCE and once alone to get over yourself. ATS is a community driven forum. Are you attempting to undo that concept by wishing to "prosecute" ATS for opinions of its members simply because you disagree with them? Change the attitude. Quickly.


I have had more than enough of this crap being allowed n this site, I am positive if this was said about blacks or any other race of people it would be pulled, PULL THIS THREAD FOR RACISM NOW...


See the above. If you have a reply, post it. If you have a complaint, use the complaint form. You will not make demands and threaten other members, and certainly not ATS as a whole. This is the first and only time this will be said. I hope you're clear on it.

Return to the topic now. Thank you.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:11 AM
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Don't forget the holocaust on the native americans.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:30 AM
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Originally posted by Permanent marker
Don't forget the holocaust on the native americans.


We havent forgotten them marker, please read the entire thread, there is more than one post that mentions what was done to the American Indians.
I mention them myself on at least one occasion but I will say this again. Every Indian Tribe suffered in North America, particularly the ones in the United States.
Their plight actually started centuries ago, when the first Colonies began springing up along the East Coast. We stole land from them that they had been farming for hundreds of years and forced them to move westward, telling them that they could have all of the land as far west as they wanted to go. Without much choice, they accepted this but each time we wanted to expand, the only place left to expand to was the west. So what do we do again, take their land and basically tell them to either integrate, move even further west or die.
And well, we all know how it turns out 400 or so years and several broken treaties later, the US is where it is today and the remnants of what was once a large and proud Nation is scattered throughout the Country in Reservations.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:34 AM
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I don't think I saw anyone mention the Cultural Revolution of China under Mao, or anything else under him. That was sort of genocide, and racial hatred etc, as well. The problem we forget, is that no country, idea or race is perfect, and any suggestion that one is, will always cause hatred to others. Put that into the media of that country or race, and you will be surprised, such genocide or whatever you want to call it, will quickly raise it's head.

The problem is, indoctrination into such ideology at any stage can cause it. Some resist better than others though.

[edit on 22-7-2007 by apex]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:42 AM
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Originally posted by Permanent marker

Don't forget the holocaust on the native americans.

That was not holocaust, that was genocide



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 03:53 AM
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Kr0n0s,
Are you saying that the Jewish people are the cause of other "Holocausts" being ignored? That's what I understand from your OP.
Seriously, every time there is an issue that is even remotely connected to Israel/Jews people around here tend to use the old "Jews control us! Jews control the media!".
Get over yourself people.
True, there have been many other cases of genocides around the world, but the reason THE Holocaust is so "famous" is because of the Nazi way of doing it.
All of Germany was in on it, there was a massive propaganda machine to further the cause and to be honest, the Nazis were best at what they did.
Other cases of genocide are not considered as Holocausts because they were really not even close to what happened in Nazi Germany.
I understand this is a conspiracy-related board, but sometimes I feel like people are trying too hard to convey a point by going to absurd and ridicules extremes of conspiracies and disinfo.
No one is to blame that other atrocities are less embedded in our minds, exactly like no one is to blame that the sky is blue.

[edit on 22/7/2007 by Gramlengo]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 04:15 AM
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There are three different words, and this is how I understand them.


1. Holocaust

The mass killing of jews by the nazis during wwii. The number of victims are desputed. 6 million vs. less (if some claims none, I'll find it ridiculous). I believe the 6 million number is inflated, but this is not so important for me (I have other interests). So please don't put too much into this "detail".



2. Genocide

Mass killing of a people, a race, a nation, a culture, etc. I guess there are better ways of explaining this word, but you get the idea. Rwanda is an example of a genocide. There have been many genocides in history.



3. Massacre

Killing a lot of innocent people in a short period of time. Many war crimes can be classified as massacres, while some are genocide. As an example: The Srebrenica massacre has been ruled as a massacre, but many still claim it was a genocide. I believe it was a war crime massacre. Very tragic. Many died. Still not genocide.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 04:19 AM
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Are you saying that the Jewish people are the cause of other "Holocausts" being ignored? That's what I understand from your OP.


I never said they are responsible for ALL others being forgotten, overlooked or ignored, that is as much history's fault than anything else.
Are they responsible directly or indirectly for at least one? Yes, i think they are.
If you re-read my original post you will notice that my initial point was how the Bolshevik Holocaust is buried and I found it to be more than just a coincidence that just a few years after the Jewish Bolsheviks Slaughtered around 20 million people, the Jews themselves face a Holocaust which they will not allow to be forgotten.
They certainly had a lot more to lose than they would gain, if it turned out that they were responsible for that holocaust. So yes, the motive is there. There is more evidence to support this, than there is evidence to support your belief.
I mean just think of how insensitive it would have been for the world to question the Bolsheviks, who were Jews, about these murders after the Jews went through so much at the hands of Nazi's.
Isnt that what propaganda is for? Isnt that how it is supposed to work?
You read the articles and make up your own mind, that is what I did.
If your opinion differs from mine, then thats the way it is. isnt that what makes us all individuals?
And if you dont want to believe that Israel is milking this holocaust for every ounce they can get, then again thats your opinion.
However, one of my points has already been proven. I merely make posts questioning Israelis morals and ethics and Ive already been labeled a hatefilled anti semite.
How do you think a politician feels whenever he wants to question an Israeli policy or even worse bring up the topic of how many men, women and children were killed during the Bolshevik Revolution? He would be labeled a Nazi, anti-semite and anything else they could think of his career would be over and there would be calls from all over Israel to have him extradited and tried in Israel for some kind of hate crime

Also, you call it disinfo or whatever you want, I call it my opinion and its an opinion based on many articles and stories that I have read, not just something I've pulled off of some lone, conspiracy site.

Its to late to debate this anymore tonight, time for bed


[edit on 7/22/2007 by Kr0n0s]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 04:33 AM
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Definition of 'holocaust':


Word History: Totality of destruction has been central to the meaning of holocaust since it first appeared in Middle English in the 14th century, used in reference to the biblical sacrifice in which a male animal was wholly burnt on the altar in worship of God. Holocaust comes from Greek holokauston ("that which is completely burnt"), which was a translation of Hebrew 'lâ (literally "that which goes up," that is, in smoke). In this sense of "burnt sacrifice," holocaust is still used in some versions of the Bible. In the 17th century the meaning of holocaust broadened to "something totally consumed by fire," and the word eventually was applied to fires of extreme destructiveness.

In the 20th century holocaust has taken on a variety of figurative meanings, summarizing the effects of war, rioting, storms, epidemic diseases, and even economic failures. Most of these usages arose after World War II, but it is unclear whether they permitted or resulted from the use of holocaust in reference to the mass murder of European Jews and others by the Nazis. This application of the word occurred as early as 1942, but the phrase the Holocaust did not become established until the late 1950s.


www.thefreedictionary.com...




the term used to refer to systematic "Ethnic Cleansing."


www.promotega.org...



What is the difference between a 'holocaust' and a 'genocide?' I do not see any differences.

What makes the systematic murder of people of Jewish and non-Jewish descent so particular when this has been happening since the dawn of man? We have been slaughtering each other over religion, race, and creed for thousands of years.

What makes this time any different? If you want to go into casualties, the holocaust against the Jews doesn't come close to the one perpetrated by the Russians.

If we get into figures, there is no comparison for a lot of them.

But again, the number is not important. In the grand scheme of things, its not. It is significant that Israel thinks its appropriate to blackmail other countries because of the tragedy in the Jewish people's past. I don't see native americans holding their genocide over any white americans.

Why do the Israeli's feel its ok to attack Palestinians? Is it OK because they had it done to some of their relatives in the past?

Is it ok to kill thousands of Palestinian Arabs because of this? I would say no.

The Israeli government if anything, should be an upstanding figure of morality.

That is simply not the case.

I didn't want to derail this into an Israel thread, but it seems there needs to be some truth shed.

Israel attack on UN observers

Israel plans attack on Gaza

I can go on for days looking up how Israel has invaded foreign countries...

Google


Revisionists claim that Jews and Jewish historians emphasize both the uniqueness and the destructiveness of the Holocaust in order to gain moral authority that grants social power.

They rail against statements like this from Abraham Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, in the January, 1994 issue of ADL's Frontline: "[The Holocaust] is a singular event. It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful attempt on the life of God's chosen children and, thus, on God himself" (p. 2).

This was an unfortunate choice of words that can lead to comments like this by Louis Farrakhan to Barbara Walters on 20/20: "Because I said the Holocaust of black people was a hundred times worse than the Holocaust of Jews, they were angry with me for even comparing this, and it is because you feel your life is so much more sacred than the lives of the Gentiles, or the lives of the Asians, Arabs, and Africans" (1994)



www.nizkor.org...




There have been a lot of holocausts through history, including the killing of people from ethnic groups in Bosnia, which was called ethnic cleansing, and the killing of large numbers of Aborigines in Australia by settlers. Some people also call the mass killing of Native Americans by invading European forces a holocaust. The killings of millions of Africans during captivity /enslavery is considered by African Americans and others as "The Black Holocaust."
The Genocide in Guatemala was similar to the World War II holocaust. Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group. In Guatemala, the army and its paramilitary forces attacked many Guatemalan villages and murdered the people and broke the buildings.



simple.wikipedia.org...

The Canadian Genocide



Aboriginal Holocaust


Other Holocausts of History


Jihads and Crusades


Holocaust and the Myth of the Past as History

Repatriation


There are countless crimes against humanity that we have committed, regardless of nationality, race, or religion. To say one group of people is better than the other is blasphemy and obviously unfounded in truth. We are all the same, children of God.

No group of people are chosen, sorry. Its just not true. That is called a massive ego.

We seem to think that the Jewish people are the only ones who have been persecuted throughout history. I challenge that presumption! There are people far worse off than they ever have been. See above.


What REALLY happened?


How many have died in wars during the 20th Century?--275 million? (that's Zbig. Brezinski's estimate). Considering this, even if six million Jews were deliberately killed during WWII, shouldn't we demand that the Zionized world stop caring so singularly about Jewish suffering? The Jewish obsession with everything Jewish is shamefully narcissistic and burdensome. Their defiant ethnocentrism is an ongoing insult to the rest of the human race.




Jewish population losses in German sphere of influence



The leading pre-war expert on Jewish population statistics, Arthur Ruppin, stated that there were 16.7 million Jews in the world in 1939 (13). For the immediate postwar years, the World Almanac gave the following figures: 15.19 million in 1945 and 15.7 million in the following four years, from 1946 to 1949. But its 1949 issue, the World Almanac quoted the figures furnished by the American Jewish commitee according to which there had been 16.6 million Jews in 1939 and only 11.2 million in 1947 (14). On the other hand, in an article published in the Jewish-owned New York Times in early 1948, Hanson Baldwin, a military expert and specialist on Palestine, stated that there were between 15 and 18 million Jews worldwide (15). As you see, the Jewish world population statistics enable you as easily to prove that the Holocaust took place as they allow you to prove that it didn't; it just depends upon which statistics you prefer to believe.




Another Holocaust?





I want to state my opinion very very clearly so no one calls me anti-anything.

As I have said before, I love all of life. I love mankind and we have the capacity to do great good. That does not mean we are incapable of causing great harm as well.

No race, country, creed, color is incapable of causing mass destruction. I do not care what you think of me to be honest.

When a country attacks innocents civilians for its own good, I do not care what happened to the citizens in the past. It is irrelevant. If anything, they should behave themselves ever more and prove how much 'better' people they are.

[edit on 22-7-2007 by biggie smalls]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by biggie smalls
How can you be racist against a religion? I thought there wasn't a 'Jewish race'?

P.S. Last time I checked, Israel is a country not a 'people.'

There are almost as many Arabs living in Israel as Jewish people. NEWSFLASH.


Don't forget that we are discussing the Nazi Holocaust, which occurred prior to the country of Israel being established, and there were Israelites long before they even originally inhabited the land, millenia aho.

If you did your homework you would know the Israel was the name given to a guy named Jacob, after he had wrestled with God, according to the Torah (Gen 32:24-32). The people of Israel are Jacob's descendants. The word Jew comes from the name Judah, who was Jacob's son. Jacob had twelve sons in all, and from each of his sons descended tribes, know as the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

During their history, after they had inhabited the land, which is now known as Israel, there was a disagreement between ten tribes and the remaining two, and they broke away to become the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. Each Kingdom was named after the most predominant tribes, Ephraim and Judah. Eventually, Ephraim was invaded by the Assyrians, who populated the land with their own people, in an attempt to breed Israel away. Judah, on the other hand, were taken into captivity by the Babylonians, and after a period, were returned back to their land.

This is why people refer to the ten lost tribes of Israel, because only the Jewish people have confidence in their ancestry, due to their people remaining seperate from the Babylonians during their captivity.

Regarding the Jewish religion, this is simply the religion of the Jews, who worship the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel", who goes by the name of YHWH (commonly pronounced Jehovah). Fact is, few Jews even acknowledge YHWH, at least in a practical sence. For most, once their bar mitzva is over, they spend the rest of their life pretending to be Gentiles.

Now I have grossly oversimplified this theme, but I hope you can see why Israel is a people first, and a country second, regardless of what you think of them.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 05:02 AM
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I do not wish to argue religion here.

And yes cjakforest I have done my homework. I was raised Catholic. I am fairly familiar with the text you call the bible. And many other ridiculous things that I don't need to mention. I have taken religious history classes as well. I am well versed in biblical history. That does not mean I believe all of it.

Now if you want to go into arguing about the 'Ten lost tribes of Israel' I can show you that the 'Jews' you think are Jewish are in fact Ashkenazi Russians.

Are Russian Jews descended from Khazars?

I can also go into showing you how the Gaels are more 'Jewish' or 'Israeli' than anyone else if you wish...aka the British.

Lost Tribes of Israel

Scotland and the Lost Tribes of Israel

The Celts are Israelits under another name

Ten Lost tribes

Lost Tribe Migration

Ten Lost tribes

Google: Lost tribes are celts

The jewish people in Israel aren't the only 'Israelites.' We are all Israelites, children of God if you want to get into semantics here.

And don't you think for a second I believe I am better off than anyone else. I don't. We are all equal spirits. It doesn't really matter where you come from on Earth, we all come from Spirit.

The state of Israel was created in 1948 by the British. Does it matter if there was a 'historic' country of Israel? NO.

Arabs have been living there for several thousand years since. They are Semitic brothers and sisters of the Jewish people. They deserve to live there just as much as anyone else, if not more because they've been there the whole time.

As soon as the British stepped in to declare an 'Israeli' state, all hell broke loose for the Jewish people in the Middle East.





When a foreign invader decides to occupy land that is not his/hers currently, regardless of historical ownership, is an act of war .

We can argue over how Israel was given to the Jewish people by God all day and never get anywhere. This is the 21st century. The Israelis have only lived in the state of Israel for 60 years. The Arabs have lived there for centuries.

Who really deserves to live there? Regardless of a holocaust. I can research all day for you and find source material stating how the Arabs have had genocides perpetrated against them...Sometimes by the Israelis, sometimes by foreign powers.

Case and point: The British 'owned' America for a long time before the American Revolution. Should we just decide to give our country over to the British because it was historically owned by them? Or why not something even better, give it back to the native peoples of this region who really 'own' the land.

They historically haven't believed in ownership...So now what do we do?

Do we stay here or go back to our respective countries? I was born here, and I shall stay here thank you very much.

The vast majority of Jewish people were not born in Israel up until recently. Even now, most of them live in the US. I have no problem declaring the US a Jewish state. That would be fine. But to invade another country just so a people have a 'homeland' which is already occupied is preposterous!


What is the difference, pray tell, between and 'Israeli' and a 'Jew?'

en.wikipedia.org...


Jews are members of the Jewish people, an ethnic group originating in the Israelites of the ancient Middle East and others who converted to Judaism throughout the millennia. The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts are both included and have been absorbed within the Jewish people.


en.wikipedia.org...:Israeli_people


According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, as of May 2006, of Israel's 7 million people, 77% were Jews, 18.5% Arabs, and 4.3% "others".[1] Among Jews, 68% were Sabras (Israeli-born), mostly second- or third-generation Israelis, and the rest are olim — 22% from Europe and the Americas, and 10% from Asia and Africa, including the Arab countries.

Israel has two official languages; Hebrew and Arabic. Hebrew is the major and primary language of the state and is spoken by the majority of the population. Arabic is spoken by the Arab minority and by some members of the Mizrahi Jewish community.


Does 'Jew' only refer to the religion, and Israeli to the 'race'?

Because the definition mentions Jewish people. Israeli only mentions the state of Israel.

It seems 'Israeli' means the country, and 'Jew' means the people.

Can we get our facts straight at least?

[edit on 22-7-2007 by biggie smalls]



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 06:33 AM
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Originally posted by theindependentjournal
JEW HATING INBRED LOWLIFES SPEWING THEIR JEW HATING INBRED CRAP. I HAVE FORWARDED THIS THREAD TO THE ADL FOR THIER ATTORNEYS TO PROSECUTE ATS AND THE POSTER.

I have had more than enough of this crap being allowed n this site, I am positive if this was said about blacks or any other race of people it would be pulled, PULL THIS THREAD FOR RACISM NOW...

Absolutely hilarious.

Even if someone came out and said "I hate Jews" there is nothing anyone could do about it outside of ATS.

This is quite frankly one of the most retarded comments I have ever seen on the net and that's saying something.


Ironically the only hate going on in this thread is coming from you.



posted on Jul, 22 2007 @ 06:55 AM
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It's long been known that the material success of Jewish families and communities is based on group survival dynamics. That is, when a group is faced with extinction via violence or mixing with the majority that group begins to work its' way up the ladder of control. It would explain the disproportionate number of jews in areas of power and importance. Another classic example is the disproportionately high number of Scots in the British cabinet. This only works if there's no clear cultural/racial distinctions for people to discriminate against, of course.

White supremacists seek to supplant what they see as the "ruling minority" and take their place for their own profit, creating a society based on "strength", an outright fascist ideology based on controlled actions, speech and thought.

Again, it's only natural for a minority group who can easily make themselves identifiable with the majority to try to do this, to try to survive by seeking to control the entire system.

This is the reason why a fascist government has to continually persecute minorities, because minorities are the biggest threat to the ruling class itself - the ruling class being the minority in power, of course.

White supremacists would tell you that the only solution is to wipe out anyone that isn't white european, of course, which is completely pointless as the system would still be in place, it's just that another minority group within that would rise to the top again, and seek to persecute people over something other than race/religion.

The ONLY solution to this problem is to remove the ability of any group to gain control over the majority.

So going crazy about jews or muslims or white supremacists is pointless, because all the while there's still an elitist ruling class deciding how many hours the majority works and what reward they get for their obedience.

Socialism is the first step away from this hierarchy, one of many steps.



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