The Epic of Gilgamesh

I am wondering why so many people think that the Epic of Gilgamesh is considered the source for plagerism for the Hebrew Bible and not the other way around. People have assumed since it's discovery and that of the Garden Creation Story of the Sumarians also. Why would people automatically assume that it is older than the Hebrew Bible, particularly when the Hebrew Bible story is much older.

With just a little Bible study and common sense problem solving one can clearly see how the Hebrew is older story and that in fact the Sumarians copied the hebrew for their Gilgamesh story. I suppose anything to make people doubt God's Word is good for satan and serves satans purposes.

I would give the reason and Biblical proof that the Bible is older, but I want to see if any of the critical thinkers of ATS can get to it without my assistance in figuring it out. I will warn you this would take at least some Biblical knowledge to understand, so if all you ever heard was the Easter and Christmas stories you may want to stay out of this one...

[edit on 7/17/2007 by theindependentjournal]

I heard that the epic of gilgamesh dates back to the sumarians around 2000BC so when is it that you think the hebrew bible was written?

If you want to make statements about historical facts, instead of telling people "let the critical thinkers do my research" I suggest you do it yourself. Otherwise, nobody's going to believe you, and some of us think you're just being lazy and trying to get others to do your work for you.

Without going and doing your work for you, the Epic of Gilgamesh is much older than the Hebrew version. Sumeria/Babylonia is the oldest civilization in the Middle East. the Hebrews took everything from the Sumerians when they were living there.

Now, unless you have "proof" of your statement -- that you have looked up and posted yourself, and not via the work of others here on site -- then please spare us the Christian egocentricism. Thanks.

Well I think the question should not be WHEN it was written down, but instead, WHEN WAS IT TOLD?

I believe that Adam wrote his portions of Genesis during his lifetime which puts it at over 5000 years old. I think a close examination of the lifespans of the Bibles charachters will show that not only is it possible that the hebrew story was written long before Gilgamesh, but that Adam told his account, FIRSTHAND, to his great great great great great great great grandson Lamech, who was Noahs daddy. According to the Bible Adam could have or would have known his great(x7) grandson and would have given him his EYEWITNESS accounts of the Garden of Eden and all of that.

We know that Lamech knew his grandson Shem, and Shem woulda known Jacob the father of Joeseph. So basically oral and written tradition would nly have had to been retold about 4-5 times before Moses. It is widely accepted that moses didn't write Genesis but instead he Edited it from the oral and written traditions handed down.

So the Sumarians heard the stories from Noah's children and they wrote them down at that time, because they wrote them down and that is the oldest find to date doesn't make it their story or the first writing of that story. It makes it a re-telling of the story by the Sumarians.

It is really simple to see when you look at the timeline so I posted one for you to see the Biblical told ages of charachters and whom they could have known... Not many of yus ever know our great grandparents let alone 7 times great grandparents, so as it is today wewould have to pass this story down several times to get it from one generation to 7 later generations. In Adams day this was NOT the case and in fact he probably knew Lamech and could tell him firsthand the story. I would argue that the story was written down by Adam and those tablets went with Noah on the ark and that those were passed down to Moses eventually who had it all put into one writing, the Bible as we have it today.

Longevity Chart

If the link doesn't work use this address in another browser window and it should come up, I don't know why the link aint working. www.the-independent-journal.com/livingchart.jpg

[edit on 7/17/2007 by theindependentjournal]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
If you want to make statements about historical facts, instead of telling people "let the critical thinkers do my research"

Actually I did it that way so as to avoid the complaint that I PLANTED the notion in your head, I wanted to see how many could find a waya written story is not the oldest, but as you can see above I HAD TO let the cat out of the bag. Your statement that Gilgamesh is older story is not correct nor can you prove that in any way. All you can say is "The oldest story SO FAR FOUND, is the Sumarian verison of the hebrew stories." To say because it was written down first makes it the originator of a story is entirely ridiculous and I can show 1000 examples of this..

As I said now the cat is out of the bag and I suppose now the answers will be to my theory, and not anyone critically thinking for themselves and possibly haveing different ideas, now it will be MY IDEA debated. Exactly what I didn't want...

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
According to the Bible Adam could have or would have known his great(x7) grandson and would have given him his EYEWITNESS accounts of the Garden of Eden and all of that.

We know that Lamech knew his grandson Shem, and Shem woulda known Jacob the father of Joeseph. So basically oral and written tradition would nly have had to been retold about 4-5 times before Moses. It is widely accepted that moses didn't write Genesis but instead he Edited it from the oral and written traditions handed down.

right...I'm willing to accept this. I have, incorrectly it seems, been led to believe that moses had direct converse with god.

Anyway's, so really the book of genesis is bs because it was "Edited" by moses after quite a few thousand years of chinese whispers.

So I do don't suppose you could fill me in on what REALLY happened back when there was only Adam, Cain, Abel and Eve. I always thought there must have been another few chicks dancing about.

We have two questions to answer:
1) Gilgamesh precedes the bible by over 2500 years according to nearly every credible archaeologist. One of the greatest experts on the subject was a professor in Philadelphia and wrote the excellent book on the subject on cuneiform plates that even preceded the Gilgamesh called “Life began in Sumer”.
The Hebrew culture dates back to the hills around Sumer after the “over irrigation of the land by way of man made canals. The primary correlation between the so called “Old Testament “ and the Sumerians has to do with Enki the so called book keeper of the Gods and his likeness to the deity that guided the Hebrews out of Egypt. They theory goes that the Israelites took on the history of the Babylonians during captivity. Shortly after that captivity is when the “Old Testament” as you call it was re-written as previous copies were destroyed.
Of course there is a flood version in Gilgamesh as there is in many cultures it is just the oldest surviving copy, by far.
2) The original adult version of Adam and Eve is from a Kabalist sect of Judaism. It is the oldest I have found and it goes like this: Satan came down to earth and had sex with Eve. The tree and fruit is a child’s version of this tale. She went to Adam telling him of a wonderful “fruit” that she wanted to share with him. So Adam went to Satan who proceeded to perform a homosexual act on Adam. This act is why they were tossed out of Eden. Eve’s first son was Cain and of course was Satan’s son. This is why he slew Adam’s first son Able.

In The “Book of Enoch” Adams remains, a Star of David (long before David yes) with heterosexual positions on it and a few other items are in the original Arc of the Covenant kept by Adams decedents on a plateau high above the decedents of Cain. Who are continually tempting those on the plateau with a way of life given to the Canaanites by Satan’s Angels: cosmetics, weapons, brass horn musical instruments etc.

Now for fun with the Bible! Have you noticed that prior to the flood the life span is over nine hundred years but by the end of all those begets the span is down to just over one hundred. Carbon 14 dating looses it’s effectiveness prior to the time period of the flood. Why? Well if there was a protective layer keeping cosmic radiation off our world our life spans would be ten times longer! And there would be less radiation emitted from once living tissue (how carbon 14 works). I believe the flood destroyed this protective layer and accelerated God’s plans so man would have a shorter life and less time to become overly self indulgent and perverse.

Sounds like a preacher with a high school education who majored in agriculture or home economics trying to prove to us that they are as smart as college educated archaeologists, genealogists, and historians. I'm not buying it. Get off this board. You are supposed to deny ignorance not espouse it. Go back and brainwash your sunday school class that Barney is running in the congo with the africans. Deep in the jungle resides moka la mimba. Sorry if I spelled that one wrong.

Really this post is ridiculous. You are trying to rewrite history or you just need to take a class in basic logic. Try taking a high school geometry class. Logic is one of the first things they teach.

Every night I come in and you've posted another thread about how science is evil and it is trying to steal people away from God. Come on, admit it you're a Kent Hovine disciple aren't you?

Originally posted by arius
. Come on, admit it you're a Kent Hovine disciple aren't you?

lol i was thinking the same....

the bible and and any religion for that matter stunts the growth of intelligence.

Its a shame that Marduk got banned again as he is most knowlegable about Gilgamesh and the Summerians but read this excellent post .

Then check this

The Pentateuch was traditionally believed to have been written down by Moses. Hence Genesis is sometimes called the first book of Moses, Exodus the second book of Moses, and so forth. In its current form, each successive book of the Pentateuch picks up and continues the story of the previous book to form a continuous story. Hence Genesis tells how the Israelites went to Egypt while Exodus tells how they came to leave Egypt. Exodus describes the building of the tabernacle at Sinai while in Leviticus Moses is given rules while at Sinai for offering sacrifice and worship at that tabernacle. In Numbers the Israelites leave Sinai and travel eventually to the plains of Moab, while in Deuteronomy Moses gives speeches about the law on the plains of Moab.

The jews had a way of writing down their bible, so when they say Moses wrote some parts then i tend to believe that.

Even Jesus said that Moses wrote the bible:

Exodus 17:14 "Then the Lord instructed Moses, 'Write this down as a permanent record...'"
Exodus 24:4 "Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord's instructions."
Exodus 34:27 "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Write down all these instructions, for they represents the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.'"
Leviticus 1:1 "The Lord called to Moses from the Tabernacle and said to him, 'Give the following instructions to the Israelites...'"
Leviticus 6:8 "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Give Aaron and his sons the following instructions...'"
Deuteronomy 31:9 "So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the priests."
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 "When Moses had finished writing down this entire body of law in a book..."

Joshua 1:7-8 "...Obey all the laws Moses gave you."
Joshua 8:31-34 "He followed the instructions that Moses the Lord's servant had written in the Book of the Law..."
Joshua 22:5 "...obey all the commands and the laws that Moses gave to you."
2 Chronicles 34:14 "...Hilkiah the high priest...found the book of the Law of the Lord as it had been given through Moses."

these first quotations of course are referring to just the ten commandments
in the new testament this truth was twisted into the following:-

Matthew 19:7-8 "...why did Moses say a man could merely write an official letter of divorce and send her away?", they asked. Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted divorce...'"
Matthew 22:24 "Moses said, 'If a man dies without children...'"
Mark 7:10 "For instance, Moses gave you this law from God..."
Mark 12:24 "...haven't you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush..."
Luke 24:44 "...I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true."
John 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses..."
John 5:46 "But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"
John 7:23 "...do it, so as not to break the law of Moses..."
Acts 26:22 "...I teach nothing except what the prophets and Moses said would happen..."
Romans 10:5 "For Moses wrote..."

So and to quote Marduk:

so according to Jesus
Moses wrote the entire old testament
you can say what you like about my scholarship
but are you going to question the word of the Lord ?




[edit on 18-7-2007 by Fett Pinkus]

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
So and to quote Marduk:

so according to Jesus
Moses wrote the entire old testament
you can say what you like about my scholarship
but are you going to question the word of the Lord ?

I do believe Marduk was being sarcastic.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
I believe that Adam wrote his portions of Genesis during his lifetime which puts it at over 5000 years old. I think a close examination of the lifespans of the Bibles charachters will show that not only is it possible that the hebrew story was written long before Gilgamesh, but that Adam told his account, FIRSTHAND, to his great great great great great great great grandson Lamech, who was Noahs daddy. According to the Bible Adam could have or would have known his great(x7) grandson and would have given him his EYEWITNESS accounts of the Garden of Eden and all of that.

You believe the Garden of Eden myth is based on eye witness accounts? I believe it is an ALLEGORY. What we believe is far less important than what the EVIDENCE shows.

The source of a claim cannot be used as the sole source of evidence to support it's claims - That isn't proof, that's BELIEF. Belief is not fact, it is OPINION.

Deny ignorance.

I don't know why I am saying this to you as I am into spirituality not religiosity, but you keep on writing about Gilgamesh in your own way. It might be nice to see your sources on your findings and that may tame the wolves that are at your door step. To tell you to leave because of your views or the excitement of your findings is typical anti denial of ignorance. You deserve to be heard, but thats just my oppinion and I am not a religious person as I said before. Best of luck in your discoveries and posts!

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
If you want to make statements about historical facts, instead of telling people "let the critical thinkers do my research" I suggest you do it yourself. Otherwise, nobody's going to believe you, and some of us think you're just being lazy and trying to get others to do your work for you.

Without going and doing your work for you, the Epic of Gilgamesh is much older than the Hebrew version. Sumeria/Babylonia is the oldest civilization in the Middle East. the Hebrews took everything from the Sumerians when they were living there.

Now, unless you have "proof" of your statement -- that you have looked up and posted yourself, and not via the work of others here on site -- then please spare us the Christian egocentricism. Thanks.

I found the standpoint he took on saying summerians copied the hebrews far too bias, with all his satan talk and such i lost my reason for wanting to hear more from him...i completely agree with major, this is a scientifically oriented forum and facts are your best bet at respect and agreement. all historians rely soley on facts of deffinity to then base their theories of how something or some people arrived to a certain viewpoint or progression in either culture,religion,or both. lets try that approach next time ya?

Originally posted by VelvetSplash
You believe the Garden of Eden myth is based on eye witness accounts? I believe it is an ALLEGORY. What we believe is far less important than what the EVIDENCE shows.

The source of a claim cannot be used as the sole source of evidence to support it's claims - That isn't proof, that's BELIEF. Belief is not fact, it is OPINION.

Deny ignorance.

well put, i concur completely and i salute the simplicity of velvets responce. very clear, very concise, very on point.

Originally posted by VelvetSplash


I do believe Marduk was being sarcastic.

I know but he does have a point there

Marduk never got past square one.

Nimrod is Gilgamesh.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Marduk never got past square one.

Nimrod is Gilgamesh.

You perked my interest Sun Matrix.

Would you like to expound on your statement?

Sure.............Marduk never figured out that Nimrod is Gilgamesh.

Nimrod is Osiris.......Nimrod is Zeus.....Nimrod is Molech........etc. etc. etc.

Marduk is all his wisdom couldn't figure out that Nimrod is Marduk

Hmmm, some links, book recommendations or something was what I was really hankering for. But I guess I can do that kind of thing myself.


Not really interested in your dick waving contest with Marduk though.

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
Its a shame that Marduk got banned again as he is most knowlegable about Gilgamesh and the Summerians but read this excellent post .

Excellent post? Two minutes of research should disprove ths so called excellent post. Moses did not write the Old Testament.......only the Torah.........so all the dates and conclusions are wrong.