Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

What your mentioning there wigit is the PC culture. Akin to fireworks night being canceled in a South London borough last year in favour of an (unrequested) Bengali fold festival. Even the local Bengali's couldn't understand it!

I wouldn't blame the EU, as the rest of the EU doesn't apply the laws in the same way as some do over here. It has to be said that singular events make the news and are hyped, but it isn't the norm. They are usually stupid PC types in the local council taking some law and applying it in a way that it wasn't meant.

After all, Horse riders don't stick a nappy on their animals do they? So why should a donkey? I doubt it was an EU rule, but rather some Daily Mail reading councilor with as much brains as a womble on prozac.

casketizer, with respect, what you describe is paranoid opinion, as opposed to actual facts.

CCTV has to be declared here in the UK too and under the DPA, you have the right to see what information they have on you.

If you felt like you had to change your behaviour, I'd see a psychologist. Honestly, CCTV has never made me or anyone else behave any differently. I've lived in Germany too, so I can see the same story as you.

There, you could be arrested for spitting on the street! Excuse me if I cough something up and don't want to swallow it again!

Police are still very approachable here, I don't know why you feel they aren't. Unless, of course, you've got half an ounce in your back pocket, then I could understand....

It actually is an EU rule. The horses in Vienna that pull the chariots there also have to wear diapers now, caused a massive uproar over there

Originally posted by wigit
A few months ago a new law ruled that kids under a certain height must use a booster seat in a car. We couldn't buy one anywhere for about three weeks and when our local shop got them in I found it was a rectangular block of polystyrene with a nylon cover. That is a law???? For those weeks I was scared to go out I could have used a damned cushion.

The booster seat law was a direct response to children being seriously injured in accidents because seatbelts were cutting across their throats/larynx due to the incorrect height settings of seats.

A cushion wouldn't have lifted them high enough, because its compressible.

Personally, I think anything that keeps my kids safe in a car is a damn good idea.

Damn right, neformore!

People will complain about anything! My little girl won't go near a car unless she is properly strapped in.. Why risk it?

As for this EU law that states horses must wear nappies...

Show me.... Because I cannot find a reference for it anywhere!


[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

Its a shame the government has to step in and make laws about things that should be common sense and personal responsibility. Car seats being a prime example.

Right, done some research, unlike others, and found that this "EU Horse nappy Law" is utter rubbish.

Both the Vienna and Blackpool cases were originally thought up by the local authorities to tackle local problems in specific places with huge amounts of horse poo.

They were not legislated by the EU.

Blackpool Horse Nappies

Blackpool horses to get nappies
Horse drawn carriages in Blackpool are being fitted with nappies to stop horse droppings littering the promenade.

Landau drivers in the seaside resort had volunteered to follow carriages with a bucket a shovel.

But the landaus, which are a common sight along the promenade, are to be fitted with a rubber and plastic nappy that will collect the droppings.

The first will be tried out on Thursday with other landaus joining the trial in coming months.

"The landaus are a well known sight on the Promenade but unfortunately we do have this ongoing problem of the droppings which can be a particular nuisance in the warm summer months," said Councillor Fred Jackson.

Vienna Horse Nappies

A plan to make horses wear nappies as they pull carriages through Vienna has animal rights protesters champing at the bit.

City officials have put forward the proposal in an attempt to stop horse droppings messing up Vienna's streets.

Originally posted by stumason
casketizer, with respect, what you describe is paranoid opinion, as opposed to actual facts.

CCTV has to be declared here in the UK too and under the DPA, you have the right to see what information they have on you.

If you felt like you had to change your behavior, I'd see a psychologist. Honestly, CCTV has never made me or anyone else behave any differently. I've lived in Germany too, so I can see the same story as you.

There, you could be arrested for spitting on the street! Excuse me if I cough something up and don't want to swallow it again!

Police are still very approachable here, I don't know why you feel they aren't. Unless, of course, you've got half an ounce in your back pocket, then I could understand....

1) Yes it has to be declared there too, but its everywhere. In the town where i live (200000-300000 souls) there are 4 CCTVed places. 1) Where the junkies meet, they don't care. 2) At the station 3) at the bus hub station 4) at a very crowded section of the shopping area.
In London, there was at least one camera at every corner, that is a huge difference. You are constantly being watched wherever you go. And they even pride themselves with that on BBC documentaries.

2) You dont need a psychologist to tell you that people behave differently when watched than when not being watched.


3) Being jailed for spitting on the street is complete nonsense, except for Singapore. The harshest fine in germany for spitting a chewing gum or a cigarette butt is 75€ in Frankfurt. Here it is 10€ and 35€ for peeing in public.
Spitting just spit is completely legal, unless you hit somebody.

4) Maybe its all the CCTV that to me gave the police an aura of "Don't want anything to do with them if it can be avoided".

I don't know for sure who is behind the horse diapers in Vienna, but the city blamed it on EU regulations when the uproar started.

Well it was on the news and that's who the council blamed, and that's why the owner refused to take the donkey out. They are small singular events, I agree, but they're happening everywhere and that's a serious spoiler of folk's fun. PC or nanny state, call it what you want, it's invasiveness and it's creeping fast and all over. As for the seat cushion, there's not much difference between a lump of foam and a lump of polystyrene if it's a height thing, in my opinion.

Originally posted by casketizer
1) Yes it has to be declared there too, but its everywhere. In the town where i live (200000-300000 souls) there are 4 CCTVed places. 1) Where the junkies meet, they don't care. 2) At the station 3) at the bus hub station 4) at a very crowded section of the shopping area.
In London, there was at least one camera at every corner, that is a huge difference. You are constantly being watched wherever you go. And they even pride themselves with that on BBC documentaries.

So, your honestly expecting me to believe that Germany, a modern, Western democracy, does not have CCTV anywhere except a few places? What about shops? Petrol Stations? Banks?

No where has CCTV? I find that hard to believe, if not impossible. If it's true, I'm going to come and rob Germany blind...

And that is what makes up 93% of our CCTV. In shops, petrol stations, businesses and banks....

Originally posted by casketizer
2) You dont need a psychologist to tell you that people behave differently when watched than when not being watched.

I don't behave differently and I have not seen anyone else take the least bit of interest in them. If your slightly paranoid anyway, then thats a different kettle of fish.....

Originally posted by casketizer
3) Being jailed for spitting on the street is complete nonsense, except for Singapore. The harshest fine in germany for spitting a chewing gum or a cigarette butt is 75€ in Frankfurt. Here it is 10€ and 35€ for peeing in public.
Spitting just spit is completely legal, unless you hit somebody.

Never said you get jailed, I said you'd get arrested. But, that was 10 years ago now. Is it just a fine for spitting? How liberal...

Originally posted by casketizer
4) Maybe its all the CCTV that to me gave the police an aura of "Don't want anything to do with them if it can be avoided".

They're fine. Never had any grief off one, even when I was arrested myself. See my post earlier about that.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Like broad generalizations of a country with 300 million people in it

A Scottish friend of mine went to New York recently, here's a quick transcript of a brief conversation they had with a random woman:

Random woman: Hi, can I just ask are you from Ireland?
Scottish friend: No, actually I'm Scottish.
Random woman: Oh right...Hey that's near London right?
Scottish friend: ........

Its difficult for people not to make generalizations when presented with ignorance like that.

Note: I am anti-SNP independence people and England subsidising Scotland (in cases of education and health services) as I've written in previous posts, but that doesn't mean I hate Scottish people or their country, personally I think Edinburgh is great, definitely one of the top 10 cities in Europe (that I've been to) although Glasgow is perhaps somewhat less enjoyable Not all of Glasgow, just certain places. I love Irn-Bru too.

Also DarkStormCrow as for Guantanamo bay? Well I think we're definitely going to disagree.

Lets put the situation another way: Lets say that you are going to visit a family member who lives in an apartment block in Russia. Lets then say that on the floor below your family member there lives a man who is connected to a terrorist group that is anti-Russian. Suddenly Russian troops storm the apartment block and decide that in case there is more than one terrorist in the building to arrest everyone inside the building, including you and your family member. You try to explain to them that you are just visiting family but they don't speak English. They hood you, tie you up and drag you out of the building; sitting you in the back of a truck, along with other people from the apartments. You get driven to an airport and thrown on a plane, no one explaining where you are or why you are there. They fly you to a remote Island just off Serbia (you of course are unaware of this), you managed to grab some sleep on the plane, but your still pretty tired and shook up. At this point you are taken to a hall-room, stripped, searched, washed down and given overalls. You are then taken to a small interrogation room some 10 hours after you were arrested, a man enters the room, and tells you in poor English that you are a terrorist and were caught trying to attack Russia, you try to explain yourself but they ignore you and instead drag you out and lock you in a cell.

You are then tortured using sensory deprivation and sensory overload, sleep deprivation and solitary confinement. Every chance you get you shout that you are innocent but the guards chuckle, either not understanding or simply not caring. You get regular meetings with an interrogator, who tells you that all this will end if you sign a confession; but you refuse because you know you are innocent. You haven't seen a family member since you were arrested, you are denied trial and representation; day light is only used against you as a weapon after long periods of sensory deprivation. You don't even know what month it is.

Years have passed, although you can't be certain, they gave you a bible to read a few weeks ago, and it offers a little comfort. Eventually you see a person from the Red Cross, but he is German so he doesn't understand you that well either. He says that you will get a fair trial soon, but you have heard it all before from the interrogator. More months pass, a person from the American Embassy is allowed 5 minutes to talk to you, he tells you that they are trying everything they can to get your release, he gives you a letter from your mother, but after he leaves the guards take it away.

This is Guantanamo Bay my friend. Its now nearly been 7 years. 7 ****ing years since all this started. And no-one cares. And you wonder why people are Anti-American?!

Not all the people there are innocent. But there are innocent people there. And you as an American have the power to stop this.

[edit on 15/7/07 by Chupa101]

Originally posted by stumason

So, your honestly expecting me to believe that Germany, a modern, Western democracy, does not have CCTV anywhere except a few places? What about shops? Petrol Stations? Banks?

No where has CCTV? I find that hard to believe, if not impossible. If it's true, I'm going to come and rob Germany blind...

And that is what makes up 93% of our CCTV. In shops, petrol stations, businesses and banks....

When I say CCTV i mean police/government operated CCTV. Of course every business has the right to CCTV its premises or vehicles (buses, trains).
In London where I lived/worked, there were government operated CCTV cameras literally on every corner of my way to work.

Originally posted by stumason
I don't behave differently and I have not seen anyone else take the least bit of interest in them. If your slightly paranoid anyway, then thats a different kettle of fish.....

There a various studies how constantly being watched by CCTV subconsciously alters human behavior. Since you are so good at quick google researches, I suggest you look into it.

Originally posted by stumason

Never said you get jailed, I said you'd get arrested. But, that was 10 years ago now. Is it just a fine for spitting? How liberal...

Again there is no fine or anything about spitting just spit, and I hardly doubt there ever was such a thing, not even before 1945.
In Singapore you can get ten lashes with a stick if you spit out chewing gum. Happened to a dutch tourist a while ago.

Originally posted by stumason
They're fine. Never had any grief off one, even when I was arrested myself. See my post earlier about that.

They most likely are, I always said it was my subjective feeling.

Just to add some clarity on what exactly CCTV is in the UK, here is a pic I have just taken outside my work. It is a CCTV camera overlooking the car park...

Oh so threatening...




It is there for purposes of recording any crimes that take place, namely, if some bugger decides he fancies your stereo or your car!

Hardly a Police State! I took this pic while having a fag. Now, I was actually breaking the law smoking where I was, so it obviously didn't change my behaviour!

Originally posted by casketizer
When I say CCTV i mean police/government operated CCTV. Of course every business has the right to CCTV its premises or vehicles (buses, trains).
In London where I lived/worked, there were government operated CCTV cameras literally on every corner of my way to work.

Ahh, so Germany DOES have CCTV! Now we're getting somewhere....

The Government don't operate CCTV camera's, except for at specific Government buildings, of course. Your on about Local Authorities. It's not like your being monitored by central Government, is it?

You wouldn't complain if you were being mugged and the police pulled up whilst it was happening, solely because they had it reported by the CCTV operators, would you?

I'd bet you'd moan if they didn't turn up!!

Originally posted by casketizer
There a various studies how constantly being watched by CCTV subconsciously alters human behavior. Since you are so good at quick google researches, I suggest you look into it.

Will do, but I don't buy it. If you like, tomorrow I will go into town itself and take some pics and maybe a video of people doing what they do. Lets see if anyone is bothered by CCTV, shall we? I could even interview some people if you like?

Originally posted by casketizer
Again there is no fine or anything about spitting just spit, and I hardly doubt there ever was such a thing, not even before 1945.
In Singapore you can get ten lashes with a stick if you spit out chewing gum. Happened to a dutch tourist a while ago.

Yeah! Up until recently, gum was BANNED in Singapore, punishable by lashings if caught!

Originally posted by casketizer
They most likely are, I always said it was my subjective feeling.

Well, if you come again, approach one. They are just people at the end of the day and want an easy life the same as the rest of us.

I find Dutch police even easier to approach. I was at Schippol Airport in 2001 and couldn't find anywhere to smoke. The Policeman I spoke to said I could smoke in the Terminal, even though it was actually illegal! Go figure!

[edit on 15/7/07 by stumason]

Just for clarification. When i said CCTV i mean police/local authority/government CCTV, it doesnt make any difference if it is local or central authorities. In central london there is police/local authority CCTV on every corner and you are on their screens almost every minute you spend out of your apartment. I (just me) find that extremely disturbing, and I don't want to live under such conditions. If it would happen here in Germany i would move to another country again.

And yes, the dutch have IMHO the best and most liberal system of all EU members. (And I am not saying that coz you can smoke pot there, actually it is also semi legal in most northern german states now too, unless you get caught dealing large amounts you don't even get a fine). And yes their police force is very approachable.

And no, I don't consider the german police more approachable than the UK's, but at least they don't watch me all the time.

About being mugged: I am 2,12m and weigh 119kg and I have been doing martial arts for 32years, I would deal with those on a per case basis, but they don't target people like me.

So, let me get this straight...

Your against the Police having access to CCTV to fight crime, as you feel watched "24/7" (not the case, but it's by the by)

But..

Your ok with private CCTV in shops/banks/buses/whatever?

What, pray tell, is the difference?

Seem's like a contradictory stance there.

Originally posted by casketizer
And no, I don't consider the german police more approachable than the UK's, but at least they don't watch me all the time.

No, thats because they listen to your phone calls instead

Hehe..

Cameras? noo....we have no camera's here!

They don't exist. Theyre....ugh...privately owned....yeah.... nothing to worry about.


la la la la la!