I hear alot of talking..but where's the action?

EMP Wallstreet man. It's the only way. Our enslavement is all under money and credit. These are the chains that holds us down.

If not in possession of such hi-tech equipment, start buying "fair trade" products, making the sinister major corporations lose income, make yourself self sufficiant in as many ways as possible, start asking questions of how everything is welded, molded and woven together in this modern world and try to break these destructive patterns. Maybe not even 1% of the population will ever live up to this but still, do what YOU can to rest your spirit and come to terms with your own life and dependencies on a system you try to fight.

But for god's sake, don't buy firearms, that's just how it all started. This war can only be fought with peace.

In worst case cenario, just let mother earth take care of it all. Prepare to become one of the martyrs in the upcoming global kataklyzm. Won't be pretty or glorious though...

[edit on 4-7-2007 by Raud]

Originally posted by ANOK
I agree with removing the violence, look what Gandhi did without violence.

Well there WAS violence in India and they did their best to pin it on Gandhi. What few seem to realise is that India gained it's independece ( only in 1947 but Britain lost control during the war) during the second world war; that's no coincidence either.

It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

Mahatma Gandhi

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mohandas Gandhi

Better far than cowardice is killing and being killed in battle.
Mohandas Gandhi

So while i am not claiming that he was a violent man , or that he wanted a violent struggle, there was no such choice for India as a whole.

The system is violence, we should reject their methods and make our own.

That sounds right and i guess on many levels it is but i have not so far been able to prevent myself from fighting back when attacked...

But the so called democratic system is an illusion. The vote changes nothing.
It just gives you the illusion you have a choice, but in reality our choices are chosen for us. If we keep fooling ourselves we have power through voting nothing will ever change.

As long as there is a paper ballot and a public who believes that the system can be made to work democracy can and will work. Too many Americans have given up on the system and this is NO accident and a result of a century of efforts by the upper classes to propagandize the citizenry into believing that they can not change the governments or have their wishes acted on. The corporations are as much the states tools as the state is the tool of the corporations and both are perfectly happy dealing with violent resistance ( well as long as it can be contained at least; which is very likely) as long as they can prevent the people from organizing on any level and using the ballot to overthrow corporate rule...

As to rest& majority of your post i do not have objections and i hope you keep your efforts.

Thanks

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
As long as there is a paper ballot and a public who believes that the system can be made to work democracy can and will work....

I never advocated not fighting back to defend yourself but violent revolutions have never worked. Violence breeds violence.

If you choose to see voting that way then fine, I just see it different. I see it as a scam, an illusion. Don't get me wrong Stellar I support democracy to its fullest, I just believe we are fooling ourselves if we think we really have democracy in our system. We have control disguised as democracy.
Whoever you vote for government wins, and government under any name are still ultimately controlled by those with the wealth to do so.

To vote is to give up your own power to someone else. You are electing someone to be your master, which is imo resigning your liberty. The only way we will be truly free is when we all take control of our own lives. Stop entrusting the defense of your interests to other people. If humans are ultimately self serving then how can you trust these people to manage your affairs in a way that benefits you? I think we can both agree that it is not your interests that they have at heart? I think we can all see that, no?

Originally posted by StellarXAs to rest& majority of your post i do not have objections and i hope you keep your efforts.

Thanx!

[edit on 5/7/2007 by ANOK]

A STREN WARNING
Obviously violence can be justified to defend yourself from an imminent attack on your bieng, for this is just the nature of most life-forms.

However, utilizing violence to make changes in your society when the tools, institutions, and freedoms to do so non-violently exist and are readily availableto be exploited by those who are truly focused on such tasks.

Inciting a violent revolt or revolution will be not a wise choice today with these non-violent opportunities.
So unwise to the point that, anyone who believes doing so, and plans to do so may meet me in battle one day as I work to defend my country from those who have such short sighted minds they refuse to take the right path to make changes.

I refuse to allow my country to be ripped apart because some slackers dont have the patience or discipline to do things the right way. So this stern warning to those who have advocated this, I am not alone in my thoughts. I believe the system needs a little bit of change but a violent revolution will not be the way, and will make you the enemy of the likes of myself and many others who believe in this country.

Do it right, we have already said how time and time again. Get the mind off of hurting people to achieve a goal and focus instead on helping people to achieve a goal. We are plookign for the same solution, so please do not take steps that will pit us against each other in a battle.

I think the biggest problem with action at this point in our society is not so much the number of people taking any kind of action, but more the people that are taking action and/or the action that they are taking.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that certain people shouldn't take action or that they're actions are wrong. But there is such a thing as spin. You may not like it. It may be imorral, or in many cases unconstitutional, but the fact of the matter is that it exists.

So, with that simple, but very complex, concept of spinning things, it makes it very easy for the government or whoever else you're trying to take action against to spin things to make the matter seem pointless.

I can't say that I have any idea what action would really work, but as I see it, for many issues anything short of an army of deceptive lawyers who could do some spinning of they're own being the ones taking the action just wouldn't do much good.

I do agree with the whole idea of taking some kind of action, but it just seems like it just doesn't work in this society anymore. The majority of people who sit and watch the nightly news for they're information just see what they're ment to see. Usually what they see is something allong the lines of, This crazy person did this or these crazy people did that. Then don't think, "Hey, I wonder why that "crazy" person did that. Was there a real reason behind it?". Instead they usually just think, "What's this world coming too?" and they're more likely to be referring to the "crazy" people of the world not the people they're trying to take action against.

So, in summary, I'd say that unless you can think of a way of forcing people to open up they're eyes and get they're news from an uncorupted source (and who's to say if there really could be such a source), there's not much that can be done.

My internet has been down for some weeks now so forgive the late reply.

Originally posted by ANOK
I never advocated not fighting back to defend yourself but violent revolutions have never worked.

Oh violent revolutions have worked on numerous occasions but if they do not fail for internal reasons within a short span of time external and far more brutal violence is applied to prevent a given people from becoming active agents in their own destinies. I do not appreciate the fact that some still claim that violence does not work as in many instances it's the ONLY thing that works.

Violence breeds violence.

And while we allow certain forces to keep acting against humanity by chopping at their branches instead of their roots violence will obviously just breed more violence. If we could and did direct whatever violence we felt required at specific people, agencies and groups ( and they are not of one nationality, race, or anything as simple) we could solve a vast majority of the worlds problems by destroying the very agencies that ensures perpetual violence by creating the conditions that forces people or groups into such normally nonconstructive destruction.

If you choose to see voting that way then fine, I just see it different. I see it as a scam, an illusion.

Well that is certainly half the truth but the other half is rarely talked about. If the ballot process is entirely useless why did the US and Western ( overwhelmingly so but not exclusively so) governments felt the need to suppress, overthrow or annihilate so many movements and countries around the world that did elect the people they wished that were in fact acting on their promises and attempting to change their countries to reflect the wishes of the vast majorities of normally poor? Why are so much violence required and applied to prevent democratic action and results if it is not a system that worries those who perpetuates violence and suppression?

Don't get me wrong Stellar I support democracy to its fullest, I just believe we are fooling ourselves if we think we really have democracy in our system. We have control disguised as democracy.

President select Bush stole the last two American elections and were greatly aided by those who were supposedly running against him so i understand your position and are aware of the flaws you see in so called American democracy. All i will say in this regard is that generally democratic movements and actions are no guarantee that democratic results will be achieved and that people will simply have to work harder on understanding the forces that can and have twisted democratic beliefs and systems into yielding autocratic results. I believe that can be fixed and i don't believe that it must violence even if i am 100% sure that state sponsored violence will be done against those who are most effectively applying themselves to achieving true democracy.

Whoever you vote for government wins, and government under any name are still ultimately controlled by those with the wealth to do so.

But in a world where the majority of countries are currently being mismanaged, and many severely so with terrifying results for the citizens, we are unlikely to be able to entirely do away with government and at least some bureaucracy without other governments, that are still being run by the same old 'people' [and i use the term very loosely], employing the opportunity to profit at our expense or lives. You are in my opinion accurate in stating that one is reinforcing and lending credibility by voting but that is only a problem if one believes that the entire notion of democracy trough representatives has irredeemably failed. I am not near this point and i still believe that the best , and certainly most peaceful and less disruptive/destructive, chance we got is trough democracy and majority rule with the understanding that whatever the majority decision might be we are at least beginning to see a expression of the true wishes and dreams of humanity. I refuse to lose faith in democracy or humanity and so far the historic record reflects positively on both when large sections of the latter employs the former to create the conditions they desire.

To vote is to give up your own power to someone else.

To vote is to support someone who you believe, hope or are led to believe will represent your beliefs and desires in return for your backing when they confront or are confronted by the forces that have for so long attempted, and succeeded, in preventing human progress. If you ONLY vote and do nothing more then you are in fact giving your power away after having started exercising it.

You are electing someone to be your master, which is imo resigning your liberty.

Well they are not your master and under ideal circumstances you should have the power to vote them out of office at any time. If every country spent a fraction of their military budgets on permanently staffing election offices in every major city and town i am willing to to put money on the fact that we our interest will be ever increasingly better represented. As far as i can tell people do not mind being led as long as the leader understands his place, represents the peoples wishes, acts on the promises made and do not obviously or openly abuse it the powers temporarily granted him..

The only way we will be truly free is when we all take control of our own lives. Stop entrusting the defense of your interests to other people.

Well people are trying to take control of their own lives but in say the western world they have been largely misdirected into believing that such can be achieved by working ever harder while attempting to squeeze credit or paper money in general out of their representatives. This works well enough but there are far more efficient ways to gain freedom from wage slavery than protest and labour negotiation and that will all come from ever more organized democratic movements that understand that being truly free requires sacrifices in the interest of common organization in defense of mutual interest. The problem is obviously that highly organized groupings are always open to abuse and 'hijack' but i don't for instance see how we are going to get access to clean and basically free energy without such...

If humans are ultimately self serving then how can you trust these people to manage your affairs in a way that benefits you?

Because a tribal leader knows that if he acts against his 20- 50 adult subjects best wishes odds are that one night his loyal guard ( a family member ) is going to be bashed over the head and he is going to pay some kind of very real price for his actions. By whatever ways we can , and these days you can vote so no bashing normally required, we must keep our local officials honest and if we can do that on the ground level chances chances are they will enforce it upwards and hopefully to the top. If there is not yet any democracy to apply or defend then the people should take the type of actions they are willing to risk to yield such and protect their local organizers and representatives from the violence that will be applied from the top down.

I think we can both agree that it is not your interests that they have at heart? I think we can all see that, no?

They really don't seem to but what is even stranger is that they do not even always seem to have their own best interest at heart? What could they threaten Gore and Kerry and why did neither take the victories that were rightfully theirs? Why are these people behaving in ways that are for the most part more organized and 'communal' than our actions? I believe that myth should be shattered once and for all as we teach people to understand that these people are not acting in naked self interest but are in fact quite able to play their parts, defend their mutual interest and on the whole do it more efficiently than we the people seem able to.

Thanx!

Well i hope you still feel that way after this response

Stellar

reply to post by UNnoticed


Well for starters you wont find activism if you look for it here - site policy rejects it by reason that any site trying to influence its users is ultimately affecting the free debate that ATS was set up to promote. (I ran afoul of this one recently with a thread that could have used a little... well a LOT more thought in its construction)

And Yes, as pointed out before, the fundamental nature of human individuality, as well as the governments which supposedly surpress us, mean that activism from forums would be pretty inefficient at best.

I mention the nature of the government 'oppression' being discussed; as one member recently pointed out to me very succinctly in the same thread, fighting for true freedom of information would be as 'fighting windmills'

But if no-one takes it upon themselves to fight the windmills, the grain has no future to be hoped for but to be ground down by them.

How much of a difference needs to be made before action is not pointless? Well thats for activists to choose isnt it? Petition websites are helpful.

IF you wan ACTIVISM, get involved with your local government. You cannot start changing National laws by getting up off your couch and just going to DC. Get involved with the Democratic system which has been setup ofr you to do things the right way, and being in your community. Then you move on up, gaining supporters along the way.