My internet has been down for some weeks now so forgive the late reply.
Originally posted by ANOK
I never advocated not fighting back to defend yourself but violent revolutions have never worked.
Oh violent revolutions have worked on numerous occasions but if they do not fail for internal reasons within a short span of time external and far
more brutal violence is applied to prevent a given people from becoming active agents in their own destinies. I do not appreciate the fact that some
still claim that violence does not work as in many instances it's the ONLY thing that works.
Violence breeds violence.
And while we allow certain forces to keep acting against humanity by chopping at their branches instead of their roots violence will obviously just
breed more violence. If we could and did direct whatever violence we felt required at specific people, agencies and groups ( and they are not of one
nationality, race, or anything as simple) we could solve a vast majority of the worlds problems by destroying the very agencies that ensures perpetual
violence by creating the conditions that forces people or groups into such normally nonconstructive destruction.
If you choose to see voting that way then fine, I just see it different. I see it as a scam, an illusion.
Well that is certainly half the truth but the other half is rarely talked about. If the ballot process is entirely useless why did the US and Western
( overwhelmingly so but not exclusively so) governments felt the need to suppress, overthrow or annihilate so many movements and countries around the
world that did elect the people they wished that were in fact acting on their promises and attempting to change their countries to reflect the wishes
of the vast majorities of normally poor? Why are so much violence required and applied to prevent democratic action and results if it is not a system
that worries those who perpetuates violence and suppression?
Don't get me wrong Stellar I support democracy to its fullest, I just believe we are fooling ourselves if we think we really have democracy
in our system. We have control disguised as democracy.
President select Bush stole the last two American elections and were greatly aided by those who were supposedly running against him so i understand
your position and are aware of the flaws you see in so called American democracy. All i will say in this regard is that generally democratic movements
and actions are no guarantee that democratic results will be achieved and that people will simply have to work harder on understanding the forces that
can and have twisted democratic beliefs and systems into yielding autocratic results. I believe that can be fixed and i don't believe that it must
violence even if i am 100% sure that state sponsored violence will be done against those who are most effectively applying themselves to achieving
Whoever you vote for government wins, and government under any name are still ultimately controlled by those with the wealth to do
But in a world where the majority of countries are currently being mismanaged, and many severely so with terrifying results for the citizens, we are
unlikely to be able to entirely do away with government and at least some bureaucracy without other governments, that are still being run by the same
old 'people' [and i use the term very loosely], employing the opportunity to profit at our expense or lives. You are in my opinion accurate in
stating that one is reinforcing and lending credibility by voting but that is only a problem if one believes that the entire notion of democracy
trough representatives has irredeemably failed. I am not near this point and i still believe that the best , and certainly most peaceful and less
disruptive/destructive, chance we got is trough democracy and majority rule with the understanding that whatever the majority decision might be we are
at least beginning to see a expression of the true wishes and dreams of humanity. I refuse to lose faith in democracy or humanity and so far the
historic record reflects positively on both when large sections of the latter employs the former to create the conditions they desire.
To vote is to give up your own power to someone else.
To vote is to support someone who you believe, hope or are led to believe will represent your beliefs and desires in return for your backing when they
confront or are confronted by the forces that have for so long attempted, and succeeded, in preventing human progress. If you ONLY vote and do
nothing more then you are in fact giving your power away after having started exercising it.
You are electing someone to be your master, which is imo resigning your liberty.
Well they are not your master and under ideal circumstances you should have the power to vote them out of office at any time. If every country spent a
fraction of their military budgets on permanently staffing election offices in every major city and town i am willing to to put money on the fact that
we our interest will be ever increasingly better represented. As far as i can tell people do not mind being led as long as the leader understands his
place, represents the peoples wishes, acts on the promises made and do not obviously or openly abuse it the powers temporarily granted him..
The only way we will be truly free is when we all take control of our own lives. Stop entrusting the defense of your interests to other
Well people are trying to take control of their own lives but in say the western world they have been largely misdirected into believing that such can
be achieved by working ever harder while attempting to squeeze credit or paper money in general out of their representatives. This works well enough
but there are far more efficient ways to gain freedom from wage slavery than protest and labour negotiation and that will all come from ever more
organized democratic movements that understand that being truly free requires sacrifices in the interest of common organization in defense of mutual
interest. The problem is obviously that highly organized groupings are always open to abuse and 'hijack' but i don't for instance see how we are
going to get access to clean and basically free energy without such...
If humans are ultimately self serving then how can you trust these people to manage your affairs in a way that benefits you?
Because a tribal leader knows that if he acts against his 20- 50 adult subjects best wishes odds are that one night his loyal guard ( a family member
) is going to be bashed over the head and he is going to pay some kind of very real price for his actions. By whatever ways we can , and these days
you can vote so no bashing normally required, we must keep our local officials honest and if we can do that on the ground level chances chances are
they will enforce it upwards and hopefully to the top. If there is not yet any democracy to apply or defend then the people should take the type of
actions they are willing to risk to yield such and protect their local organizers and representatives from the violence that will be applied from the
I think we can both agree that it is not your interests that they have at heart? I think we can all see that, no?
They really don't seem to but what is even stranger is that they do not even always seem to have their own best interest at heart? What could they
threaten Gore and Kerry and why did neither take the victories that were rightfully theirs? Why are these people behaving in ways that are for the
most part more organized and 'communal' than our actions? I believe that myth should be shattered once and for all as we teach people to understand
that these people are not acting in naked self interest but are in fact quite able to play their parts, defend their mutual interest and on the whole
do it more efficiently than we the people seem able to.
Well i hope you still feel that way after this response