India, US All Set For Fighter Jet Deal

The most high tech fighters in India's arsenal at present are the Sukhoi-30MKI 'air dominance' fighters, which are being manufactured indigenously by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But it needs to replace its aging fleet of earlier generation MiGs-21s at the earliest to not only maintain parity with China, but have the much needed edge by inducting state of the art force multipliers.
So what are the aircraft India’s looking at?

India is expected to announce the tender for the acquisition of 126 fighter aircraft today, Friday. This will be India's biggest-ever defense deal.
For the first time American arms companies are in contention for a major Indian arms deal. The aircraft in the fray for the Indian mega deal are the American F-16 and the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Russian MiG-35, the French Rafael, the European Eurofighter and the Swedish Gripen.

Let’s see who lands this huge contract. I’d bet on the American F/A - 18 Super Hornet.

Cheers!

Here…

My money is definitely on the MiG 35's or the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The Typhoon is probably the most advanced aircraft there, IMHO. It's pretty capable, and so long as its armed out well it could probably give a lot of other planes a run for their money, including the Raptor.

But I'm thinking the MiG 35 is a more likely deal, considering the Indian's relationship with Russia. The Indian Air Force has had a very close relationship with Russia with regards to defense. It seems that right now the MiG 35 is probably the best way to go if they want to maintain that relationship.

One other thing that might change the equation a little bit is the way the MiGs work with Sukhois. The MiG 29 and Su-27 were designed to be complements to each other. MiG 35 and Su-30 MKI are just advanced versions of those two primary models, so chances are pretty good that they will still be complements, even in later designs. This, combined with the the infrastructure that is already there for Russian aircraft support will make the MiG 35 seem a pretty darn good choice.

The F-16 is an interesting choice, but the aircraft is going out of style. It's slated to be replaced by the F-35 I believe, so the aircraft might be cheaper but since they're a tad older they probably have some maintenance kinks and whatnot. A respectable plane to be sure, but I don't think it can hold its own in this high-level competition. It's just not a force multiplier next to the Su-30 MKI, I believe.

The F/A-18 E/F? Hmm. It's quite a capable plane and is fairly recent, but it's a naval aircraft. And again with the force multiplier problem, I just don't see it being particularly effective over the Su-30 MKI and being able to do more difficult missions than it. In fact, technologywise I'd say they're pretty much on par (of course, I don't know a lot about avionics, so research may be required to prove that) with each other.

The Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen are two fighters that I'd place near the top, but not "at" the top. They're both very capable fighters and are quite impressive, but I don't think that they will prove a proper mesh with the Su-30 MKI system already in place. Will the Russian weaponry fit on those rails? I don't know, but I'm not personally betting on it. In this case you'd have to modify the rails or buy new weaponry, an expensive proposal.

Anyway, I'm done now. My money's on Typhoon or Ultra Fulcrum.

Mike your title is a bit off. No real has been reached.

I think that if money and offsets are not an issue then the Typhoon wins hands down. But if one group is willing to give sig. offsets, then they will get the nod.

All are capable aircraft.

The two long shots IMHO? The Rafale and the Mig. The Rafale has not really made a splash in the export market (unless the French government errrr..... Dessault is offering a fire sale plus offsets it may not even get to phase II). The Mig? another capable aircraft, BUT, the indian government and perhaps more importantly thier burgeoning aviation industry wants closer ties to the West and want those offsets and/or local production.

Despite the F-18E/F being a naval aircraft, it is a good fit for the IAF. Couple it with the AESA radar it may prove to be a winner. The Typhoon is a better aircraft, but as mentined above the political considerations may carry the day.

The Grippen (one of my favorite a/c) is a long shot. Range and payload considertions may be an issue. The F-16 Block 60 is another long shot as well.

As far as im aware both the MiG and the typhoon are being offered with AESA - i do think the MiG will get the nod - they have AESA ready to go , and a deal could be reached for a similar radar for the MKI

Oh Im sure if one or two Arab princes and BAE can be pulled in, that plus a few billion in kickbacks could seal the deal for the Eurofighter

Originally posted by Darkpr0
The Typhoon is probably the most advanced aircraft there, IMHO. It's pretty capable, and so long as its armed out well it could probably give a lot of other planes a run for their money, including the Raptor.

That first claim is very debatable, especially when you consider the current Typhoon over planned future versions. As for the second statement, nothing to debate there, the two aircraft are not even in the same class.

I think political and economical factors will be big part of this deal, granted India currently has a largely Soviet force but I believe it wants to move away from that standard. The two main contenders in the deal I think are the Typhoon and the F/A-18E/F, both fighters who are for all purposes almost equal in performance...

They have a very VERY long memory on the USA pulling the plug on support - which is why either they make the thing themselves or it won`t be a US aircraft.

The two main contenders in the deal I think are the Typhoon and the F/A-18E/F, both fighters who are for all purposes almost equal in performance...

As far as I am aware the kinematic performance of the Typhoon is quite a bit stronger than the Super Bug's. The two may be similar in terms of general capabilities, but I believe the Typhoon is quite a bit quicker: M 2.25 vs M 1.8...

Top speed is a red herring IMHO. Its usualy measured at altitude and in a clean configuration. How often will a CAP be in that state.

More relevant would be its ability to supercruise

Originally posted by WestPoint23

I think political and economical factors will be big part of this deal, granted India currently has a largely Soviet force but I believe it wants to move away from that standard. The two main contenders in the deal I think are the Typhoon and the F/A-18E/F, both fighters who are for all purposes almost equal in performance...

You're right on! It’s the question of both economics and more importantly, political considerations. India was once a captive defense-equipment market for the former Soviet Union and later Russia -- which provided 70 percent of India's military hardware -- but is now seen as trying to broaden its military suppliers.

The two countries signed a landmark deal in 2005 that will allow India access to US civil nuclear technology, barred since the country exploded its first nuclear bomb in 1974. So probably this could be a sort of quid pro quo: We’ll sign the nuke deal if you land us the contract.

Additionally, the United States and India have signed a 10-year agreement paving the way for stepped up military ties, including joint weapons production and cooperation on missile defense.

Titled the "New Framework for the US-India Defense Relationship" (NFDR) the agreement is vastly more expansive than the Next Steps in Strategic Partnership (NSSP) and builds on the January 1995 Agreed Minute on Defense Relations between the two countries.

What are the costs involved?

An F/A-18 costs $78 million. (However, Boeing said that the fly-away cost of the Super Hornet, under the current, second multi-year procurement contract with the U.S. Navy, is $53.8 million.) So we’re not sure what the unit cost of the Indian procurement contract would be. Probably around $55 – 60 million a piece.

A Typhoon on the other hand is a hefty $118 million a piece. These prices do not include cost of infrastructure and spares.

So, keeping the politics and economic considerations in view, I think the F/A-18 Super Hornet will finally emerge the winner! But hey, I’ve said nothing about kick backs!!

Cheers!





[edit on 30-6-2007 by mikesingh]

Originally posted by xmotex
The two may be similar in terms of general capabilities, but I believe the Typhoon is quite a bit quicker: M 2.25 vs M 1.8...

When I said "performance" I meant capability. Anyway, maximum speed is not that relevant in most combat situations. Aircraft will rarely ever reach real high speeds under combat conditions. In most cases sustained maximum speed is more counter productive than beneficial. I know the Typhoon has marginal super cruise capability with a specific weapons load out so that is a plus. However the Super Hornet currently has a better overall armament, avionic and sensor suite.

For the very best bang for the buck India can't go wrong with the Lockheed Martin F-16C/D blocks 50 -60. It's easily comparable to it's neighbor's fighters if not superior in all respects. These new F-16's are being fitted with BVR weapon systems as well as a host of other modern day missile systems (AIM-9L/M,AIM 120, AMRAAM, etc.). Also included: upgraded APG-68V radar, a helmet-mounted cueing system, conformal fuel tanks, stealthy nozzles, internal FLIR targeting system, an advanced internal ECM system, advanced cockpit, submunitions dispensers and an uprated powerplant (GE-129 turbofan engine rated at 29588 lb thrust with afterburning exceeding 1350 mph). These are all weather, multirole fighters with outstanding manoeuvrability. The F-16 is the ferrari of the skies without the ferrari price tag. Additionally, turn around time is fast as parts are off the shelf. Not too shabby for a 20 million dollar war machine.

[edit on 30-6-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

[edit on 30-6-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

[edit on 30-6-2007 by carnival_of_souls2047]

Remember that nuclear cooperation deal, India signed with the US?

What do you think the price is going to be?

Probably buying american fighters... the US never does anything out of goodwill so my bet is that IAF is going to have American planes

I hope people are remembering that India has I belive done a deal with the Russians for spare jet engines rd33? Which I also belive will be used on the Mig35, with that in mind I belive the Mig has a advantage, I am short of time right now but will try to confirm

[edit on 30-6-2007 by Id123]

Originally posted by WestPoint23Anyway, maximum speed is not that relevant in most combat situations.

True, but acceleration & performance in the supersonic regime is relevant, especially in BVR combat, and I suspect the EF2000's performance in that department significantly exceeds that of the Super Bug, as reflected by it's significantly higher maximum Mach number.

My two cents about this jetfighter purchase contest is that the "battle" will take place between the MiG 35 and the F/A 18 Super Hornet.

But i think they preffer the MiG 35 because it has TVC (Thrust Vectoring Control). Making it more maneuverable and it indeed interlocks with the Sukhoi`s that are already in service.

But the F/A 18 uber bug does make a good change because it is the most "westernized" Fighter and its capabilitys are very good.

Saab Grippen??? Go away with that short range fighter bomber!!

Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2
Range: Combat radius 800km, (500 miles), (430nm). ()
Service ceiling: 15,000 m (50,000 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: 341 kg/m² (70,3 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.94

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

800 Km??? 800Km

The saab was designed for Sweden not another country....

I dont know about the others but my token goes to the MiG and the Uber Bug. I hope for India that about the Saab was a joke.


[edit on 30/6/07 by James R. Hawkwood]

Just a side note:
Saab has a new model from the Gripen that will be sold to Norway. It's purposely desinged as a longer range ocean capable platform. If the swedes offer that to the indians it might be lucrative as the price tag may be low.