Layer of Magma Found Under American Southwest

Nah he doesn't learn... he'll spin what you just wrote Elf, just like he does everything else which is why I harass him.

He'' get his panties all in a bunch any minute now and put me on ignore.

So childish.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Why in the world are some of you claiming "it does not say such thing", when I clearly bolded, and I quote....

The current is created when the solar wind, a continuous flow of charged atomic particles emitted by the sun, interact with Earth’s magnetic field, called the magnetosphere.

Because you didn't note the paragraph ABOVE that one:

The molten-rock layer is 10 miles thick and can’t be seen, felt or smelt from the surface. Researchers Daniel Toffelmier and James Tyburczy of Arizona State University found the layer using a relatively new technique that measures changes in weak electrical currents flowing through the Earth’s mantle rock.

The current is created when the solar wind, a continuous flow of charged atomic particles emitted by the sun, interact with Earth’s magnetic field, called the magnetosphere.

The detection method is done by checking (with new and sensitive instruments) the electrical current of the Earth's mantle rock. Fluctuations in the solar wind cause the currents to fluctuate -- it's a feedback loop. A good analogy would be using scanners to measure brain waves -- the solar wind is the input, and it gets affected by the Earth.

The Earth isn't affected by the solar wind.

I wouldn't use the DigitalJournal article as support, by the way. It was written by a citizen journalist -- not an atmospheric scientist.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by Byrd]

Please tone down the sniping!

...this means EVERYONE, please.

Originally posted by sardion2000
.............
The articles in question does not mention solar variations and does not even speculate what effects that may have, that is your own highly polarized and opinionated addition.
............

The article in question does state that the Solar wind affects the Earth's magnetosphere, which in turn affects this magma current. Hence it is only logical that changes in the Sun, which will change the Solar wind should affect this magma current too, which also in turn it is the reason why the magnetosphere exists. It is "almost like" a symbiotic relationship, where one factor depends on the other.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Byrd

The Earth isn't affected by the solar wind.

Byrd, i am sorry but you are wrong.

The Solar wind affects the Earth in many ways.

The solar wind shapes the Earth's magnetosphere and supplies energy to its many processes. Its density at the Earth's orbit is around 6 ions per cubic centimeter--far, far less than that of the "best vacuum" obtainable in labs on Earth. The distribution of ions in the solar wind generally resembles the distribution of elements on the Sun-- mostly protons, with 5% helium and smaller fractions of oxygen and other elements.

www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

MIT instruments studying solar wind
Elizabeth A. Thomson, News Office
November 30, 1994


Two small instruments designed by MIT scientists are orbiting Earth aboard a satellite whose mission is to study the solar wind, or the charged particles emitted by the sun that are responsible for phenomena such as the Northern Lights and occasional power blackouts.

web.mit.edu...

Originally posted by Byrd
...............
I wouldn't use the DigitalJournal article as support, by the way. It was written by a citizen journalist -- not an atmospheric scientist.

As for who these scientists are, here is some information on them and some more info on their discovery.

But Arizona geophysicists Daniel Toffelmier and James Tyburczy detected the molten layer with a comparatively new and overlooked technique for exploring the deep Earth that uses magnetic eruptions on the sun.

Toffelmier, a hydrogeologist with Hargis + Associates, Inc., in Mesa, Ariz., graduated from ASU’s School of Earth and Space Exploration in 2006 with a master’s degree in geological sciences. Tyburczy, a professor of geoscience in the school, was Toffelmier's thesis advisor. Their findings, which grew out of Toffelmier's thesis, are presented in the June 21 issue of the scientific journal Nature.

clas.asu.edu...

Some more information which might shed some light as to what i am talking about.

Solar activity and global seismicity of the earth

Abstract Results of studying the character and possible succession of cause-effect relations (in going from a disturbance source on the Sun to a response in the lithosphere in the range of periods from several days to the 11-year solar cycle) have been presented. It has been indicated that the maximum of seismic energy, released from earthquake sources in the 11-yr cycle of sunspots, is observed during the phase of cycle decline and lags 2 yr behind the solar cycle maximum. It has been established that the maximum in the number of earthquakes directly correlates with the instant of a sudden increase in the solar wind velocity.
Original Russian Text © S.D. Odintsov, G.S. Ivanov-Kholodnyi, K. Georgieva, 2007, published in Izvestiya Rossiiskoi Akademii Nauk. Seriya Fizicheskaya, 2007, Vol. 71, No. 4, pp. 608–610.

www.springerlink.com...

Some more info which might shed also more light on what I am talking about.

Solar, geomagnetic and seismic activity

A. Mazzarella1 and A. Palumbo1

(1) Dipartimento di Geofisica e Vulcanologica dell'Università, Largo S. Marcellino 10, 80138 Napoli

Received: 23 August 1988

Summary An 11-y modulation of large Italian earthquakes has been successfully identified and found to be positively linked to sunspot activity. The seismic activity appears to be modulated by the 11-y sunspot cycle through the coherent variation of geomagnetic activity. It is proposed that the two phenomena are linked by the influence of a magnetostriction process on stresses in the crust. An implication of this model is that geomagnetic storms may directly trigger large earthquakes.
PACS 91.30 Seismology - PACS 94.40 - Cosmic rays - PACS 91.25 - Geomagnetism and paleomagnetism - geoelectricity

www.springerlink.com...

Do you also need me to link seismic activity with volcanic activity?

Anyways.

[edit on 27-6-2007 by Muaddib]

I was interested in this article and to credit Muaddib, he did not introduce this as anything to do with whatever other grudge match you people have with him about global warming. Please take your grudge match to some other venue.

I want to hear about this magma theory and don't appreciate the sniping distractions.

The Earth may not be affected by solar wind, but increasingly we are learning that the magnetosphere is. Solar wind is now credited with causing or influencing lightning discharges.

It's pretty basic physics that if you place a ferric object in a magnetic field you can get an electric current. This theory does not seem so far fetched or removed from reality.

I would have to question however the suggestion that there is a continuous layer of magma around the world, because there are known subduction zones around boundaries to tectonic plates.

I can more easily buy the concept that there are large magma pools under the earth's surface. The existence of these pools would obviously change both the chemistry and physics of such magma pools so why not the electrical properties too ?

OK, so now we have solar wind having an effect on the earth's crust by magnetoconstriction. This suggestion been around for a while and some correlational evidence does show an influence on tectonic activity. The moon also seems implicated.

And taking the solar-tectonic link as a given. Do you think this is important in this current period of climate change?

But, more on topic, how does this fit in to the telluric current affecting magma, that consequently affects climate? One is an effect on the crust, yours is a proposed telluric effect on magma itself.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
..................
The Earth may not be affected by solar wind, but increasingly we are learning that the magnetosphere is. Solar wind is now credited with causing or influencing lightning discharges.
.................

Well, I did give research which does state that the Earth is affected in many ways by the solar wind, including affecting seismic/magmatic activities.

BTW, thanks for trying to keep the discussion of the thread on topic.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
The Earth may not be affected by solar wind, but increasingly we are learning that the magnetosphere is. Solar wind is now credited with causing or influencing lightning discharges.

It's quite likely the earth is affected by solar wind. I don't question that.

It's pretty basic physics that if you place a ferric object in a magnetic field you can get an electric current. This theory does not seem so far fetched or removed from reality.

The existence of these pools would obviously change both the chemistry and physics of such magma pools so why not the electrical properties too ?

Aye, that's the telluric current. It's pretty much well-established that it exists. It's used for geological experiments, like the one Muaddib has posted.

The only issue I have is directly linking the telluric current to magma to climate.

Solar wind has many effects, as posted above by muaddib and readily accepted by me, there does seem a correlational link between solar wind and tectonic activity, but this is more an effect on the crust than the magma directly.

I have to confess that I have not read all the links and maybe I should have.

Whether solar wind affects magma and I guess the suggestion is, that it perhaps causes magma disturbances is something where the jury is still out. It does deserve the freedom of debate and conjecture.

Re climate change. After watching the movie an Inconvenient Truth, it changed my opinion and now i agree that perhaps man is responsible for rocketing CO2 levels.

Is that the cause of climate change ?

My personal opinion is that I am yet to be convinced of climate change itself. I recall in my own locality that we had terribly cold winters in the 70s, warm winters in the 80s, cold again in the 90s. I know that sea levels have not changed at a beach where I swam as a kid in the early 70s.

I don't want to derail the topic again. My view for what it is worth is that other factors could also have huge impacts on global climate other than man's efforts.

Volcanic erruptions do seem to have co-incided with recent spikes in CO2 levels so with respect to all posters and different opinions here it is worth considering all the possibilities.

I don't respect trying to close down a debate because it doesn't serve one group's set of passionately held convictions. Let's hear the man and debate the issues. Not the man.

Originally posted by melatonin

The only issue I have is directly linking the telluric current to magma to climate.

Telluric currents affects the Earth's climate in many ways. First an increase in the telluric current, which i am sure you should know occur not only underground but through the oceans also, drives air movements which create electricity in our atmosphere and in turn supplies the flow of the global fair weather charge accumulatorto the bases of thunderstorms.
home.gwi.net...

Second, the temperature dependance on chemical reaction rates, (Arrhenius equation) and because of the dependance of temperature of electrical conductivity, any distorsions in the telluric current, due to an increase in the reaction energy, affects the chemical reaction/properties of the magma layer, and the formation of super dense rocks etc. These chemical reactions which change the composition of the magma layer, super dense rocks etc, in turn affects the rotation rate in the fluid system (magma layer) which in turn affects the climate.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Telluric currents affects the Earth's climate in many ways. First an increase in the telluric current, which i am sure you should know occur not only underground but through the oceans also, drives air movements which create electricity in our atmosphere and in turn supplies the flow of the global fair weather charge accumulatorto the bases of thunderstorms.

Aye.

Second, the temperature dependance on chemical reaction rates, (Arrhenius equation) and because of the dependance of temperature of electrical conductivity, any distorsions in the telluric current, due to an increase in the reaction energy, affects the chemical reaction/properties of the magma layer, and the formation of super dense rocks etc. These chemical reactions which change the composition of the magma layer, super dense rocks etc, in turn affects the rotation rate in the fluid system (magma layer) which in turn affects the climate.

That's quite a line of logical connection. Not sure how it holds up to scrutiny though.

Any links/info on this? Save me a bit of time.

Originally posted by melatonin
................
That's quite a line of logical connection. Not sure how it holds up to scrutiny though.

Any links/info on this? Save me a bit of time.

If anything i said is wrong show me.

I am just too tired to tell you anymore right now, check it out yourself.

I might post a response tomorrow or the day after, got a few things to take care of.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Telluric currents affects the Earth's climate in many ways. First an increase in the telluric current, which i am sure you should know occur not only underground but through the oceans also, drives air movements which create electricity in our atmosphere and in turn supplies the flow of the global fair weather charge accumulator to the bases of thunderstorms.
home.gwi.net...

An interesting alternative theory, but you'd have more credibility if you referenced mainstream meteorology and atmospheric science rather than presenting one person's personal (almost certainly not peer reviewed) ideas as 'fact'

Unless the intent is to discuss said alternative theories?

btw does anyone know what global fair weather charge accumulator means? Only reference I can find to it is on E Richard's website and the wikipedia page on Telluric currents.

Originally posted by Essan

An interesting alternative theory, but you'd have more credibility if you referenced mainstream meteorology and atmospheric science rather than presenting one person's personal (almost certainly not peer reviewed) ideas as 'fact'

Alternative theory?.... What you are calling alternative theory is being used in several fields to gather information on the conductivity of the interior of the Earth. Telluric currents are natural occurring low frequency electric currents which are induced by changes in the Earth's magnetic field. It is not "an alternative theory".

BTW, and as already stated, the telluric currents are induced by changes in the Earth's magnetic field, which means any changes in the Solar wind, and in general changes in the Sun, are going to affect these currents and in turn affect the weather of Earth.

Originally posted by Essan
Unless the intent is to discuss said alternative theories?

Could you tell us how you reached your conclusion what i said was some sort of alternative theory?

I would have to search for some research done in this field, and it might take me some time because you can't find it in "wikipedia", but I assure you it is not an "alternative theory".

Originally posted by Essan
btw does anyone know what global fair weather charge accumulator means? Only reference I can find to it is on E Richard's website and the wikipedia page on Telluric currents.

The phrase is self describing. "Fair weather" is the process by which the surface of the Earth leaks negatively charged particles into the electrosphere, this charge is provided by the telluric currents of the Earth.


[edit on 29-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Here is a site which explains the Earth's electrical structure and also explains what the fair weather is.

What charges the Earth?
The atmosphere is not a perfect insulator, and there is a small current between the electrosphere and the Earth. Negative charge leaks from the Earth and rises to the electrosphere. This is called the fair weather electric and it is about 2000 amperes (A) at any given moment. At this rate, the Earth's charge would dissipate in less than an hour, but, as it turns out, lightning recharges the Earth's surface by delivering negative charges back to the surface.

fire.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca...

Here are some graphic representations of the Earth's electrical nature which might help you understand. They can be found in the above website.

fire.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca...

fire.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca...

[edit on 29-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Has anybody ever studied if there is a correlation between lightening activity and earthquake activity, or volcanic activity ?

Not suggesting that a single lightening strike causes anything, but I wonder if there are patterns there over time ?

This would be interesting to discover since there is a link between solar wind and lightening discharge.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I might post a response tomorrow or the day after, got a few things to take care of.

What I'd like to see is evidence.

Excuse me for not taking what you say at face value...