Layer of Magma Found Under American Southwest

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Has anybody ever studied if there is a correlation between lightening activity and earthquake activity, or volcanic activity ?

Not suggesting that a single lightening strike causes anything, but I wonder if there are patterns there over time ?

This would be interesting to discover since there is a link between solar wind and lightening discharge.

There is a phenomena where there are lightening like flashes during earthquakes but as I recall they seem to come from the ground.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Alternative theory?.... What you are calling alternative theory is being used in several fields to gather information on the conductivity of the interior of the Earth. Telluric currents are natural occurring low frequency electric currents which are induced by changes in the Earth's magnetic field. It is not "an alternative theory".

Telluric currents might be mainstream. The website you linked to, with it's connection between such currents and thunderstorms etc, is an alternative theory by the author of that webpage. With strong 'new age' leanings. It's most certainly not mainstream meteorology and I'm willing to bet not a single professional meteorologist in the UK has ever heard of it. That's what I was referring to. You did read the whole website?

You're better off referring to scientific papers by actual scientists.

Originally posted by grover

There is a phenomena where there are lightening like flashes during earthquakes but as I recall they seem to come from the ground.

There's always the theory of a certain Jim Bowles that earthquakes are simply earth lightning .....

(Sorry no references, but I've, er, discussed the idea with him a number of times on various forums)

However, more relevant might be the theory of 'earth lights' which do appear to be a genuine phenomena and seem to often occur prior to earthquakes

www.daviddarling.info...

Originally posted by Essan

Originally posted by grover

There is a phenomena where there are lightening like flashes during earthquakes but as I recall they seem to come from the ground.

However, more relevant might be the theory of 'earth lights' which do appear to be a genuine phenomena and seem to often occur prior to earthquakes

www.daviddarling.info...

That is what I am referring to and if I recall correctly the "proof" that they were real as opposed to folk lore were a series of photographs taken of them during an earthquake in Japan a few years back... in the early/mid 90's I think.

Originally posted by melatonin

What I'd like to see is evidence.

Excuse me for not taking what you say at face value...

This coming form the same melatonin/regenmacher who gives some numbers and then claims "this shows all the CO2 is anthropogenic in origin" yet he does not provide any real evidence to back his claims, even after he is being shown that not only do oceans release CO2 naturally during warming cycles, such as the one we are going through, but that there is evidence that this is happening....and that's without counting the fact that because we are in a wamring cycle, there are more forest fires which release more CO2 into the atmosphere...yet melatonin/regenmacher claims "it is all anthropogenic CO2"......

What i stated is true and scientifically sound, I am not going to make it easy on you, if i am wrong then prove it.

[edit on 30-6-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Essan
.............
It's most certainly not mainstream meteorology and I'm willing to bet not a single professional meteorologist in the UK has ever heard of it. That's what I was referring to. You did read the whole website?

You're better off referring to scientific papers by actual scientists.

I gave more than one link.

Are you going to claim now that the following link is wrong in it's statements? If so then prove it please.

What charges the Earth?
The atmosphere is not a perfect insulator, and there is a small current between the electrosphere and the Earth. Negative charge leaks from the Earth and rises to the electrosphere. This is called the fair weather electric and it is about 2000 amperes (A) at any given moment. At this rate, the Earth's charge would dissipate in less than an hour, but, as it turns out, lightning recharges the Earth's surface by delivering negative charges back to the surface.

fire.cfs.nrcan.gc.ca...

Originally posted by Essan
.......................
You're better off referring to scientific papers by actual scientists.

Anyways, i wanted to elaborate a bit more to that last statement you made.

Essan, the problem i see a lot is that there are times when people make statements and apparenlty they didn't think about those statements before they say them aloud, in this case write them in a forum.

Any metereologist who says that an electric current/telluric currents do not affect the weather that metereologist did not earn his degree.

If you need a "peer review article" to tell you that currents, in this case telluric currents affect the climate/weather of Earth, here it is.

Global electrical currents

Willis L. Webb1

(1) Atmospheric Sciences Laboratory, U.S. Army Electronics Command, 88002 White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, USA


Summary The atmospheric electrical structure of the earth is postulated to be controlled by a motivating force in the lower ionosphere which is produced by interaction between neutral atmosphere tidal circulations and the ionospheric plasma in the presence of the earth''s magnetic field. Associated electric fields power the dynamo currents through the Hall effect with a resulting development of a gross electric potential distribution in the lower ionosphere. Asymmetries in these hemispheric potential distributions result in exospheric current flows in lowL-shells and larger differences in potential produced by dynamo return current flows in high magnetic latitudes result in strong currents through highL-shells between auroral zones. Vertical thunderstorm currents with their associated lightning discharges effectively connect the earth to a low potential region of the dynamo circuit and thus supply the earth with an average negative charge which motivates a leakage tropospheric electrical circuit. In addition, the dynamo currents maintain the magnetic polar regions at different potentials with a resulting electrical exchange with the solar wind through the earth''s near space. These considerations indicate that observed electrical and variable magnetic phenomena near the earth are all part of a single comprehensive electrical current system.

www.springerlink.com...

Originally posted by Muaddib
What i stated is true and scientifically sound, I am not going to make it easy on you, if i am wrong then prove it.

I guess that means that there isn't any evidence.

Lets see new if I recall correctly Muaddib has at various times blamed global warming on:

An increase in solar activity
Entering an interstellar dust cloud
Leaving an interstellar dust cloud
Heat welling up from underneath the surface of the earth
I think he's now blaming thunderstorms.

He's just throwing darts at a list of ideas and goes with the most recent stick until a new one comes along.

Anything to avoid admitting that humans might just have something to do with it.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by melatonin

I guess that means that there isn't any evidence.

Are you yourself admitting there is no evidence for the rabble you present here all the time?....

Originally posted by grover
Lets see new if I recall correctly Muaddib has at various times blamed global warming on:

An increase in solar activity
Entering an interstellar dust cloud
Leaving an interstellar dust cloud
Heat welling up from underneath the surface of the earth
I think he's now blaming thunderstorms.

Grover, if you don't understand that anything that happens in the Solar system and any changes in the region our solar system passes through affects the climate on Earth, you are really dumber than i though you were...

Perhaps if you would stop thinking about "crossdressing, and being the queen of England" and instead devoted your time to researching the subject you might understand a thing or two about Climate Change....

Anyways, as always you provide nothing of substance to the discussion...in that aspect i knew you would never change...

But you are not alone...including melatonin/regenmacher here has claimed that an increase in the charged particle the Solar System or the Earth absorbs would not do anything to affect them, except maybe form clouds on Earth. In this, and some other aspects melatonin/regenmacher shows a lack of understanding in basic physics...

The following might interest some people in understanding who is merely blowing smoke from their behinds all the time.

Also of note is who were at this meeting, Mann et al were absent...but one of the main speakers was Dr. Akasofu.... someone who some people around here have claimed doesn't know anything about Climate Change, despite the fact that Dr. Akasofu is a Geophysicist and the alst 9 years was director of the International Arctic Center in Alaska studying Climate Change....

Supplementary material to “Energy Transfer in the Earth-Sun System”
A. T. Y. Lui, Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University, Laurel, Maryland; Y. Kamide, Solar-Terrestrial Environment Laboratory, Nagoya University, Toyokawa, Aichi, Japan
..................
There is increasing awareness on how much our daily activities can be adversely affected by space disturbances tracing all the way back to the Sun. In some of these energetic phenomena, energy in various forms can propagate long distances from the solar surface to the interplanetary medium and eventually to the Earth’s immediate space environment, namely, its magnetosphere, ionosphere, and thermosphere. In addition, transformation of energy can take place in these space disturbances, allowing charged particle energy to be transformed to electromagnetic energy or vice versa. In-depth understanding on energy transformation and transmission in the Earth-Sun system will foster the identification of physical processes responsible for space disturbances and the prediction of their occurrences and effects.
..................
Syun-Ichi Akasofu gave a special presentation on global warming using very long-term historical records to show global warming existed even prior to the start of human industrialization, suggesting that the present global warming should not be automatically attributed to the greenhouse effect. This suggestion disturbed some environmentalists in the audience. Of great interest were two poster presentations by Gerald Duma and Friedemann Freud proposing ionosphere-induced telluric currents triggering earthquakes through conductivity enhancement in rocks from activating dormant electronic charge carriers as an explanation for the association between the occurrence frequency of earthquakes and the diurnal magnetic field variations at Earth due to ionospheric Sq currents.

www.agu.org...

[edit on 1-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Oh I understand quite a bit; I just don't buy your versions of it.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Are you yourself admitting there is no evidence for the rabble you present here all the time?....

Not really the issue. Keep diverting though, I'm sure it helps...

You've just presented more of the same. Yeah, a relationship between solar wind and earthquakes. We know.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by melatonin]

The reason why it seems that people attack you and the mods don't do anything Muaddib is probably because you deserve it... you are self righteous, you are arrogant, you think that you know everything and that anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot... AND you have no sense of humor. Hell if I were a moderator I would give people extra points just for putting up with you. Double if they cut you down to size. There is a word for people like you muaddib...it is boor. I forget who it was said about but there is an old quip that sums you up perfectly... "He has no enemies but none of his friends like him. "

Originally posted by grover
The reason why it seems that people attack you and the mods don't do anything Muaddib is probably because you deserve it...

WTF?....

First of all Mods should be doing their jobs whether or not they agree with the statements of members...not doing so shows a bias against anyone who disagrees with them... and not all mods are like this btw...

Actually it has been proven by now that the reason why there are some mods and members that don't like me is because I speak my mind. I don't hold back what I think, and of course i am a "Cuban-American who is a Republican", but i do have some friends in here, and no you are not among them and i wouldn't want you to be since apparently your version of "friend" is someone who must always agree with you and must bow down to your nonsense....

BTW if certain mods don't do anything because of my "political leanings and knowledge" then they are doing a diservice to these forums...

Yes, i am aware that even mods have made claims that I must be some sort of "U.S. government lackey" because I talk about experiences which none of them know about, and they prefer to believe someone like Moore because he has the same "political leanings as they do".....

A similar situation is what happened to Dr. Akasofu when he spoke in that meeting I gave a link to and the environmentalists booed him because he sees the whole Global Wamring debate differently than they do....

Anyways, what the heck does that have to do with anything?...

Not that any of this has anything to do with this topic....



[edit on 1-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Any metereologist who says that an electric current/telluric currents do not affect the weather that metereologist did not earn his degree.

Any effect of telluric currents on weather is purely theoretical - although I concede that you are right in so far as research is being carried out in that direction.

Interestingly, in the UK we have a chap called Piers Corbyn who runs a company called Weather Action and issues long range forecasts based on predictions of solar activity. He's never revealed publicly exactly how he makes his forecasts but I wonder if the idea that variations in the solar wind, affecting telluric currents which in turn (might theoretically perhaps) affect thunderstorm activity might be part of his thinking? Just a thought.

Piers is also an ardent denier of manmade global warming, attributing it all to the sun. Although he's yet to explain how the sun managed to burn most of the world's rainforests or cover large areas in concrete and brick

If you need a "peer review article" to tell you that currents, in this case telluric currents affect the climate/weather of Earth, here it is.

Global electrical currents

Willis L. Webb1

(1) Atmospheric Sciences Laboratory, U.S. Army Electronics Command, 88002 White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, USA


Summary The atmospheric electrical structure of the earth is postulated to be controlled by a motivating force in the lower ionosphere which is produced by interaction between neutral atmosphere tidal circulations and the ionospheric plasma in the presence of the earth''s magnetic field.

Postulated - because it's not yet proven.

Originally posted by Essan

Any effect of telluric currents on weather is purely theoretical - although I concede that you are right in so far as research is being carried out in that direction.
............

Essan, there has to be an interaction between the currents that exist in the atmosphere, and the currents that exist in the Earth's surface. It is the nature of energy, or in this case electricity.

If there was no interaction between the currents that exist on Earth, telluric currents, and the currents that exist in the atmosphere there wouldn't be a fair weather.

There are a lot of theories which have been "postulated" and we know many are true, even if they are still "theories".

[edit on 2-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Essan, there has to be an interaction between the currents that exist in the atmosphere, and the currents that exist in the Earth's surface. It is the nature of energy, or in this case electricity.

There may well be. But whether or not it has much if any effect on daily weather is another matter.

If there was no interaction between the currents that exist on Earth, telluric currents, and the currents that exist in the atmosphere there wouldn't be a fair weather.

Why? And what connection is there with this 'fair weather' and real weather? (I'm asking because, frankly, I don't understand)

There are a lot of theories which have been "postulated" and we know many are true, even if they are still "theories".

There are a lot of theories which have been postulated which some people think are true. There may be some which are true - but obviously we don't know that.

Originally posted by Essan

There may well be. But whether or not it has much if any effect on daily weather is another matter.

Why? And what connection is there with this 'fair weather' and real weather? (I'm asking because, frankly, I don't understand)

But it does have an effect on "daily weather and climate". Water vapor is not the only thing which rises into the atmosphere to create clouds and storms. Negative and positive charges are also leaked into the atmosphere by these Telluric currents, mostly negative charges are the ones leaked into the atmosphere by these currents, but some positive charges are also released.

The fair weather is when the charges in the atmosphere and the telluric currents travelling in the surface of the Earth are neutral and produce "fair weather". In the same way that the Solar wind affects the magnetosphere of the Earth, the telluric currents are also in contact with the atmosphere, because although the atmosphere is somewhat of an insulator, it is not the best insulator and the leakeage occurs.

It would be the same as stripping the insulation from a wire connected to an AC socket and the copper wire being in contact with other conductors. The Earth and telluric currents are the same, and part of that energy is leaked into the atmopshere too.

Originally posted by Essan

There are a lot of theories which have been postulated which some people think are true. There may be some which are true - but obviously we don't know that.

It is the most logical explanation more so because we can measure these electric fields.

Telluric currents are also used to measure the resistivity and conductivity of the different formations in an area of the Earth for exploration, and research.

If it was just a theory, we wouldn't be able to measure these currents.

[edit on 2-7-2007 by Muaddib]

Anyways, everything that exists in the universe, every object, every particle, every atom, electron, proton, neutron, etc is held together by electrostatic forces. Without these "electric" forces bonding, and holding atoms, and molecules together, nothing would exist.

It is only logical that any electric current passing through objects will affect them in one way or another.

The changes in physical properties of rocks, formations, and magma of course does not rely entirely in the changes in the telluric current.

It is more a congruence of factors which causes such changes. Pressure,
gravity, thermal changes, electrical currents/telluric currents, etc, all play a role in these changes in the formations and strata of the Earth.

Such congruence, in which telluric currents play a part, has been noted for a long time.

A preliminary result of a new terrain-correction analysis of the existing gravity data is that there is a strong trend in the gravity anomalies parallel to the alignment of young silicic volcanism, suggesting that there may be subsurface structures and plutonic bodies associated with the volcanism. Relatively old geomagnetic variation studies also detected parallel telluric current systems at depths shallower than 10 km, consistent with thermal phenomena (Towle, 1984)

www.dmns.org...

We know as a matter of fact that high frequency electric currents can been used to cut through rocks, low frequency currents also affects rocks, formations and magma. Remember that magma is a liquid, well a semi-liquid in which electric currents pass through also.

We also know for a matter of fact that when rocks are stressed they generate a positive current, and right before it breaks there is a spike in these currents. Different rock formations generate higher or lower currents.

Current and surface potential induced by stress-activated positive holes in igneous rocks

Abstract

In order to model seismo-electromagnetic phenomena, we focus on one specific defect as an alternative source of charge carriers in igneous rocks. These charge carriers are defect electrons in the O2–sublattice that are chemically equivalent to O–in a matrix of O2–and are known as positive holes (p-holes). They are activated from peroxy defects: O3X–OO–XO3(X = Si, Al etc.) that are known as positive hole pairs (PHPs). Stressed igneous rocks behave like p-type semiconductors. In order to examine the contributions of p-holes to seismo-electromagnetic phenomena, we conducted two series of uniaxial loading tests using air-dry tiles of several typesof rocks (granite, anorthosite, gabbro, limestone, and marble) and glass. We observed that the igneous rock tiles under centrally loading generated (1) a positive current, carried by holes and flowing from the central stressed volume through the surrounding unstressed volume to the edges of the tiles and (2) a negative current, carried by electrons and flowing from the central stressed volume into the load pistons.

www.seti.org...

Laboratory studies of electrical potential during rock failure

D. Eccles, , P.R. Sammonds and O.C. Clint

Mineral, Ice & Rock Physics Laboratory, Department of Earth Sciences, University College London, UK

Accepted 3 May 2005. Available online 14 July 2005.

Abstract

We have investigated electrical potential and acoustic emissions signals associated with rock deformation. Five rock types were studied; Clashach, Bentheim and Darley Dale sandstones (all quartz-rich) and a Seljadur basalt and Portland limestone (both quartz-free), both air dry and the rocks were tested in distilled water. Shallow crustal conditions were simulated in a triaxial rock deformation cell with a confining pressure simulating depth of 40 MPa, pore pressures ranging 5–35 MPa, and strain rates 10-7–10-4 s-1. Precursory electric potential signals prior to failure were observed in both saturated and dry samples of the quartz-rich sandstones, but only observed in the water saturated quartz-free rocks. Co-seismic electrical signals were obtained in all tests, providing strong evidence that two of the main sources for precursory and co-seismic signals are the piezoelectric and electrokinetic phenomena.

Lowering the strain rate resulted in an increase in the number of acoustic emissions. The pore volume changes during compaction and dilatancy remained approximately constant for all strain rates.

Streaming potential generated by fluid flow across the sample was also measured at different stages of deformation. The potential signals increased with the pore pressure gradient.

Sciencedirect.com

[edit on 2-7-2007 by Muaddib]