is their real magic and trolls gnomes ect.

so because a number of people agree on something that then becomes truth?

ignorance doesn't seem to be being denied in this instance

age old question once again..if something cannot be known, can it be true?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
definitions aren't subjective, they're agreed upon by the masses to be something objective

You would think that to be true, but it seems it's not.

so how would you define "magick"?

The way Crowley did. "Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."

Magick is not paranormal, or Harry Potterish, every magical result will show up via natural means.

and exactly what "magick" do you practice all the time?

Ceremonial Magick for the most part.

As we move further in our evolutionary process towards the next dimensional level, different dimensions will begin to open and there will be new and exotic beings sharing this plane of existence with us here now. As far as majic, oh yes it is real.

Your pretty convinced that believing in things that are yet to be proven is Ignorant huh, ( well yer right, we dont have the information on that subject matter but guess what, without studing it Your being ignorant too the T) also we wouldnt have much of what we have today in reguards to thousands of inventions an energy sources, if these people didnt think about them constantly while Others " like yerself " kept saying they were ignorant ( not in the sense of not knowing, but more of a derogitory statement relating to their beliefs ) to believe that there was a way to make energy out of decayed beings, ( oil, and gas )
or that Humans will alter the weather by living, ( global warming )
or that metal objects would carry man to far off places. ( cars, rockets, planes )

I mean im trying to say is belief in ideas and experiences of other people is not ignorant its a way of life, and a means to properly work out what "Is" and "Isnt" Plausible.

Magic in many ways can be chalked up to Illusion, or energetic matter manipulation ( energy work ) Yes Im sure Im totaly Ignorant to believe,

maybe in time, you will learn how to understand humankind and its ability to realize much of what life has to offer, then again maybe thats too Ignorant for you to want to involve yourself in.

"Ignorance isnt bliss, its the lack of knowing what bliss is. "

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
no
there were never any little magic folk running around. there is no magic either.

simple question
simple answer

not true, there is currently unexplainable events happening everyday, just because you personally don't witness them doesn't mean they don't exist. Take the wind for example, just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not there.You only know it exists because you feel it. Well magic is much the same, the only difference between the two is one you are taught in school and the other you have to learn elsewhere....

Dwarves Exsist!!!!!

[edit on 14-6-2007 by parry noid]

Originally posted by parry noid
not true, there is currently unexplainable events happening everyday, just because you personally don't witness them doesn't mean they don't exist.

and just because they happen doesn't mean that they are magical or supernatural in nature

magic, god, etc as answers to the unexplained are lazy

Take the wind for example, just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not there.You only know it exists because you feel it.

and we can also scientifically verify the existence of wind.

Well magic is much the same, the only difference between the two is one you are taught in school and the other you have to learn elsewhere....

the only difference being that one is something you're taught in school because it's scientific and the other you're not taught in school because it isn't scientific

and whoever it was that compared me to the naysayers of scientific history... you're wrong. see, i'm disputing something based on a lack of evidence instead of the outright ridiculousness of the claim. i wouldn't dismiss a claim because it sounds weird because science tends to be weird.

i'm just going to ask: where is the evidence?

You have been taught Many of things in school that arent true or that are later revised as being false, take Pluto for example, its not a planet, but it is a ball of rock,

You have a huge nack for quoting people and giving your opinon on what they say and by reading your statements your pretty Sure that you know everything on this planet and that all of what you have been told thruout your life is 100% true,

Im curious as to why its so hard for you to believe in something that obviously has enuff merit to gain aditional research in multiple feilds, wether its real or made up, its being studied right now in many labs an colleges,

Do you believe in your soul?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
and just because they happen doesn't mean that they are magical or supernatural in nature

Why do you think people are talking about something supernatural?

That is what I was talking about. You can't prove Magick because any attempt to do so the skeptics will claim the result was not supernatural.

Well DUH!

i'm just going to ask: where is the evidence?

what about string theory or theories in general for that matter? once you dig a little deeper you'll find there are many things out there without evidence..... look at fundamental physics...

Yea i gotta agree, i mean there's a whole bunch of stuff on this message board that can't be explained by your proof which one would assume is based on pure logic, in terms of magic it's best that you keep it that way.


I don't condone magic and i'm dead set againts it and that being said yes it does exist, but based on what your concept of truth is i'm not sure you would believe most topics on this board such as Illuminati, Magic, UFO's ect ect ect....


Now all these topics have mountins of so called proof to explore but i would guess it all comes down to your perception at this point on whether or not you chose to believe the so called proof or maybe just one day you will see it in a mater of fact kind of way like you see soda when you visit the grocery store, who knows.


But i feel ya because at this point it comes down to what you've seen what you heard and most important what you believe in terms of the information you chose too except as fact or before you see it like you see a can of soda, but becareful in which you chose as fact because to err is human.


But again i feel ya bro i do, because of the three mentioned topics i talked about, i chose to believe that magic exist because i'v seen things that would constitute that can of soda that i talked about and i say this reluctently because as i said i'm dead set againts this practice and hope no kid reads this and thinks "ok let me go use some magic", because it's something that shouldn't be played with, i chose to believe that the New World Order is real because i'v seen way too much symbolism and suspicious activity withen our government to ignore this, i think terrorism is real and it does come from out side sources(for the most part), but we brought some of this on ourselfs through past actions, that being said our government has done horrendous things to our own people such as project mkultra and even tho there are some good people in the government and there is, some of these people get stepped on by the powers that be and don't even know it, also believe there's subliminal messages and forms of mind control in certin songs, however one must be careful on that topic as to not confuse the inspiration from within the artist to help cheer someone up for a good purpose through the lyrics, but and here's the big but, i don't believe in UFO's as you with magic, i chose not to except the proof that exists and until i see that can of soda (or something else) i probably wont, so i do understand where you're coming from within your stance on magic, but that dosn't mean i wont read about UFO'S and ask questions because it's a interesting topic.



[edit on 15-6-2007 by WhatIsWhat]

Originally posted by dreamer0
what about string theory or theories in general for that matter? once you dig a little deeper you'll find there are many things out there without evidence..... look at fundamental physics...

no, you're talking about theoretical physics. that's essentially educated guesses until we can keep up. nobody take string/m theory as absolute scientific fact because it's still in development. and at least we have mathematical models in that sense.

fundamental physics are quite absolute. the speed of light in a vaccuum never changes, the rate at which an object subject to X level of gravity falls never changes. fundamental physics is concrete and with proof.

Cug, as you define magick... i guess that could be something possible at a base level... i'd just call it something different. just like how we abandoned the term alchemy in favor of chemistry

the only difference being that one is something you're taught in school because it's scientific and the other you're not taught in school because it isn't scientific

and whoever it was that compared me to the naysayers of scientific history... you're wrong. see, i'm disputing something based on a lack of evidence instead of the outright ridiculousness of the claim. i wouldn't dismiss a claim because it sounds weird because science tends to be weird.

i'm just going to ask: where is the evidence?

Well since you seem to understand life in such a way you can attempt to debunk a statement which you missed the point entirely. I was basically stating that wind is felt but not seen, so just because YOU cannot feel the magic, and cannot see it, nor can any of the scientists you follow to a tee. Automatically you feel the need to naysay. The scientific theory of all matter being created by atoms was only a theory untill recently. The whole thing just one big Hypothesis, even though none could truely explain what an atom looked like respected scientists kept on researching to find out.How do you know the same is not for magic, or majik, or magick however you plan to say it. Or how do you even know that it doesn't exist and is just being kept from the public to keep from getting into the wrong hands. Chances are you are the type of person who believes everything you are told to believe and nothing else is possible.

I could go on but attempting to explain things you wish to not understand,however it is like attempting to explain how a computer works to a medieval peasant. The whole thing just cant be comprehended by someone with a simple/closed mind.

So you do believe in things without proof, then if you believe in powerful beings why not magic or other things that arent proven? I found this on your questions thread.

quote:
2. DO you think powerful beings (things that would seem like gods to most people) that exist
that came about through natural processes?


they could exist... it's a big universe

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Cug, as you define magick... i guess that could be something possible at a base level... i'd just call it something different. just like how we abandoned the term alchemy in favor of chemistry

Well that was Crowley's idea with spelling it with a "K". But now days it's become a new ageish term.

BTW alchemy wasn't abandoned.. it was more of a split. The psychical science was termed chemistry, and the more spiritual/religious parts of it kept the name alchemy.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if magic(k) existed there would be conclusive evidence to show that it existed. and no, eyewitness accounts aren't conclusive evidence, they are circumstantial evidence.

Just remember, a thousand years ago, lightning was magic. Now we know it as electricity. What we may call "magic" today may prove to be merely technology for tomorrow. AND: Not everything has "conclusive evidence" Ancient scriptures were burned by the Roman Catholic Church in medieval times due to the fact that it talked about "giant lizard creatures." The reason it was thrown out is (a) no one would be lieve it, and (b) there was no conclusive evidence. You must remember, not everything has been proven.

As a practising Chaos Mage, I'll add my 2cents.

If such magic as depicted in Hollywood movies exists - gnomes, huge effects, etc. - I've never seen anything that obvious. But magic as Crowley defines it:

Originally posted by Cug
"Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."

does exist, is in fact the basic principle of magic.

Originally posted by dreamer0
so because a number of people agree on something that then becomes truth?

Yes. That's usually the definition of reality: a consensus of perception. A democratic process of calling what the majority of people sense 'reality'. Magic as Crowley - or earlier, A.E.Waite, Agrippa, etc; and later, for example, Phil Hine (chaos) - would define it is the art of altering the perceptions to alter reality.
The basic understanding of chaos magic is that we are able to change reality by 'sleight of mind', by tricking the universe. This is done in the form of rituals, be they two-week-wiccan-festivals, thelemic (Crowlean) masses, standard ceremonial evocations, or chaotic sigillisation. The point being: it's all in your mind, you just have to convince the universe to agree with your view.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Also, Aleister Crowley seemed to have a strong belief in magic as did his tutor, Allan Bennett.

Aleister Crowley was 'the revolution' in magic. He pretty much tore down the medieval system of the mage under God and above demons, instead he kicked off the idea that the mage should always be on top of things. Mind you, that's the only good thing I think about him, as for his claims about him kicking demon's asses (not to mention the involvement of Ron Hubbard in Crowley's order ), I'm a tad more sceptical.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if magic(k) existed there would be conclusive evidence to show that it existed. and no, eyewitness accounts aren't conclusive evidence, they are circumstantial evidence.

That's the problem most people have with accepting the existence of magic, and that it does work. It takes some time and skill to learn, and it takes belief in what you're doing and, most of all, work. Which is why, once someone has achieved the level where they can alter reality, they're not comfortable doing it a dozen times only to prove to someone else that it exists. In fact, while I'd invite anyone to learn it and practise it, I'd rather they don't - as every skill, it's that tad sweeter when not everyone has it.
Also, most use magic for personal reasons, and work hard to improve themselves and the life of others. They don't want the sceptics and scientists to butt in and demand "Show me. Again. Show me more. I don't believe you, show me something else."

Originally posted by Yaseanne

Aleister Crowley was 'the revolution' in magic. He pretty much tore down the medieval system of the mage under God and above demons, instead he kicked off the idea that the mage should always be on top of things. Mind you, that's the only good thing I think about him, as for his claims about him kicking demon's asses (not to mention the involvement of Ron Hubbard in Crowley's order ), I'm a tad more sceptical.

Well you will be happy to know LRH was never a member of any of Crowley's orders. He just conned a member of one of his orders out of a large sum of money and his girlfriend. (Crowley in fact called him a goat or lout depending on the source).

But anyway the rest of your post was very good.

Originally posted by Cug
Well you will be happy to know LRH was never a member of any of Crowley's orders. He just conned a member of one of his orders out of a large sum of money and his girlfriend. (Crowley in fact called him a goat or lout depending on the source).

Ah... that was the bit with the moonchild ritual and Crowley being exasperated because they had no idea what they were doing, right? So Hubbard only hooked up with Parsons and his girlfriend...