Pentagon "NTSB animation" is wrong!

Nick, you may have all day to sit and your computer and type out long convoluted pieces that go in circles. We dont.

Email us. I'll give you my number. We'll record the call. You can post it all over the net afterwards. I will show you how wrong you are.

[email protected]

I dont expect to hear from you as it seems you're all mouth from behind a screen with poor research ability.

Also, if it helps you.. i think the JREFers just got their own animation through the FOIA. They uploaded it to google. It matches ours. I suppose we fabricated the animation for the JREFers as well? I guess theirs didnt come from the NTSB? There are many people who have taken the initiative to get the same information we have.. directly from the NTSB. Im sorry you havent taken that step yet and only want to make accusations.

Nick... do yourself a favor. Stop posting. Wait till you get your animation. Then do research. Then post. You are wasting time.. yours and ours.

Also think to yourself. Why would so many professionals representing an organization, current pilots at Continental, JetBlue, Former USAF Accident Investigators, call and record the NTSB and FBI based on their provided data if it really wasnt from the NTSB? Does that make sense to you? (then again, look at who im speaking with). You probably think we fabricated the recorded calls as well.

Again..; contact us if you want to be set straight. I dont have all day to go round and round typing out posts for someone who obviously doesnt have a clue. We can get it done faster on the phone... recorded. I'll set you straight in less than 30 mins.. guaranteed.

Rob

1) Just to be clear, JDX, the animation sent in March along with93's, is the same as the one Snowygrouch and now "SLOB" have recieved? This is reassuring, as it's evidence that FOIA still applies to americans too, not just Europeans.
2) I do presume this FOIA latter (mew to me) has a signature on another page, correct? If I can't find one I'll ask again...Anyway...

Where I stand - Nick, I think his expert is right. Didn't we find the mag headin at takeoff was just 10 degrees off from the real bearing it's have on runway? And it's 20 degrees under at the end. So 20 was shaved, and his guy even located just where. That could be handy in fact.

Myself I have dropped charges of forgery or any suspicious ambiguity on the NTSB pedigree of the animation from the Pilots' end. For now. It's possible that Snowygruch's FOIA letter just didn't mention the animation DVD specifically like the new letter does as another oversight. Assuming this is real, clearly they are playing with people here, so why not?

I had never suspected a fake NTSB letter before, just misrepresentations and doginess over HOW each letter was connected to the evidence the Pilots provided.
They have stood by it firmly now and apprently provided new evidence of authenticity.
Momentarily at least, I remove the quotes from "NTSB" in the OP title. Mentally, since I can't actually do this. The NTSB animation is wrong.
I still find it a silly opinion to conclude what they have concluded about this major official "error."

JDX: Re the challenge - sorry didn't read intervening posts, but the challenge was taken before you issued it. Nick started a thread just a couple days ago, and a few have shown interest.

Not edited for typos - you know what I mean and that's what matters

ETA: Original point I entirely forgot and qute in next posts:


[edit on 4-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by johndoex
Again..; contact us if you want to be set straight. I dont have all day to go round and round typing out posts for someone who obviously doesnt have a clue. We can get it done faster on the phone... recorded. I'll set you straight in less than 30 mins.. guaranteed.

Rob

I don't need set straight by you. You need to authenitcate your claims, which you could have easily done by now. But you haven't. You continue to proceed with some of the most convoluted logic I've seen in a long time -arguing that altered data is evidence of the "wrong" flight path. It's self-evident that this is a ridiculous position to take.

*Faked data can't be examined and analyzed to determine the *true* flight path.

It doesn't take a room full of professional aviators to figure that out. If the data has been altered, then it can't represent the true flight path, right? Yet you continue to use admittedly faked data to substantiate your arguments.

The ploy of continuing to challenge me to some sort of recorded debate is childish. You're only doing this because you can't answer the questions I've raised here, and you want to be able to come back and point out that you offered to debate me or set me straight, but I didn't respond.

Nice try, but it's pretty transparent.

I will continue to post what I research here. Feel free to comment on the facts, or answer the questiosn I raise. If you don't want to address the points, I'm sure you can get back to work on your next video. Hopefully it will be more substantive than your last video.

Here's a suggestion. Instead of doing a video about FL 93, why not do a video about how the NTSB supplied you with faked data? THAT would actually be a worthwhile point to prove, if in fact you could prove it.

Also, if you really want to help get to the truth, post the letter you sent for your FOIA request so we can be sure that my request matches yours. This way there will be no room for debate about whether or not I didn't make out the proper request.

Also, if you really want a public debate, let's do it right here. Let's start a new thread and document the whole conversation. At worst, you'll get a chance to spam the forum promoting the release of your upcoming PBB III.

I remove the quotes from "NTSB" in the OP title. Mentally, since I can't actually do this. The NTSB animation is wrong.

Actually, the more accurate statement is -

"The NTSB Heading Parameter has been altered to support a southern approach - although the actual plot shows a flight path north of the citgo as corroborated by two pentagon police officers as seen in The Pentacon"

But i dont think you can fit all that..

CL, i appreciate your honesty and the fact you can evolve when presented with new information you may have overlooked.

And that is corrrect. The March 22 letter is signed. The AA77 animation received with that letter matches the one from Snowygrouch. I do not know why they did not mention the animation in SG's letter, or why they did not mention the EDT/UTC correction as well. But there you have it.

I also just received my own UA93 Animation and the cover letter does not mention the animation specifically.. just the enclosed DVD's that i had requested.

The FOIA Contact at the NTSB is Melba D. Moye (she signed the cover letters). You can reach her at 202-314-6000.

Originally posted by johndoex

Originally posted by Nick -

If your animation really was sent to you by the NTSB, then I will congratulate you on being the person who broke open the whole 9/11 conspiracy case.

Quoted for posterity. Everyone please remind Nick of the above statement when he gets his own Animation from the NTSB and finds out it cross checks with our animation/film. Although im sure Nick wll say someone intercepted his mail between NTSB HQ and his house and replaced the real NTSB animation with the 'fake animation' that we fabricated and mailed it to him in an NTSB envelope with NTSB contacts on an NTSB letterhead.

lol

For my part if I find it's all NTSB as I'm trying to believe, I wil congratulate you on drawing attention to an odd gov. disinfo campaign apparently designed to help gut the FOIA by re-brandin it in the public mind as the Anarchy of Information Act once this episode is done with and resolved.

I have concluded the animation is wrong, and you guys have not so much tried to draw attention to this discrepancy as done so accidentally while implying and sometimes arguing explicitly that this one worst piece of FDR evidence is the only real one, or at least as real as it gets. Somehow that's the impression people have gotten anyway.

Collectively P49T say things like this, as in theirr recent PR:

Pilots for 9/11 Truth has concluded that the information in these NTSB documents does not support, and in some instances factually contradicts, the official government position that American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001.

[...]according to reports, American Airlines Flight 77 struck the Pentagon and by doing so, struck down 5 light poles on Highway 27 in its path to the west wall.

The information provided by the NTSB does not support the 9/11 Commission Report of American Airlines Flight 77 impact with the Pentagon.

They're looking for "9/11 Truth." They look at evidence and apply expertise, see evidence that contradicts the official story and bring it to everyone's attention. It certainly SEEMS they're saying this is a clue to the truth of 9/11, not a clue to some nitwit intern's computer skills. They've gotten no clarification, which implies to them gov't secrecy since they're on the trail. They've decided the other FDR data is faked when it does not match the animation. The list goes on.

These are all theries and interpreatations of what they have seen, but there are other explanations as well they seem to have ignored. So IMO their leading as in PBB is at LEAST somewhat misleading.

Here's a suggestion. Instead of doing a video about FL 93, why not do a video about how the NTSB supplied you with faked data? THAT would actually be a worthwhile point to prove, if in fact you could prove it.

z9.invisionfree.com...
Video time - 41:00-43:40

pilotsfor911truth.org...
Scroll down to "Questions for US Govt" Question number 4.

At the release date of PBB2 we did not know about the heading being altered. But a full report is here... (once again repeating a link Nick refused to click on the last page)
z9.invisionfree.com...

Now Nick will probably refuse to click those links. But his questions are answered. I could have shown this information in a phone call in a fraction of the time it took to type it. Perhaps Nick has an agenda to distract me from my work in playing dumb while not doing his own research. It is a tactic many shills use. So, i'll leave you all with the above information that is readily available that Nick obviously cannot find. It is clear he does not want a recorded call cause he would much rather waste more time behind his screen.

Ok.. enough wasting my day holding Nicks' hand.

Originally posted by johndoex
At the release date of PBB2 we did not know about the heading being altered.

Why not?
In the video you note that it's north of the Citgo, and contradicts the official story, which with ten minutes of research you'd see was a mag heading of 70, as shown right there in the dial. Did you not wonder and map out and find their data was inconsistent? This makes no sense...

Ok.. enough wasting my day holding Nicks' hand.

I'm sure he's had enough of your sweaty grip too.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

Why not?
In the video you note that it's north of the Citgo, and contradicts the official story, which with ten minutes of research you'd see was a mag heading of 70, as shown right there in the dial. Did you not wonder and map out and find their data was inconsistent? This makes no sense...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Round and round we go CL..

Originally posted by johndoex

Ok.. enough wasting my day holding Nicks' hand.

Rob, let me respectfully suggest that you have wasted enough time here. Nick is arguing to just to argue. He is on a search for the guilty and he really doesn't care if the innocent get blamed in the process. He has even attacked me and all I was trying to do was tell them the difference between magnetic heading and true heading.

They think they have uncovered some gigantic scam and the only thing they have really uncovered is how little they know.

Thanks for your patience so far. They are not interested in facts or answers. They are only interested in placing blame. You need to move on, nobody who knows the facts will blame you one bit for not continuing to try to explain the facts in the face of, well, the less that knowledgeable.

All of us, you and me and Nick and CL and all the others all we are trying to find is the truth. I am sure that Nick means well, but, he is, how to put it tactfully.....less than gracious.

Cheers John!

Call me when you can.. we'll catch up.

Rob - out

A quick question for jdx and/or John Lear or someone who is a better researcher than I am. According to the NTSB, flight 77's autopilot was disengaged at 7000 feet. When was it engaged?

Originally posted by Boone 870
A quick question for jdx and/or John Lear or someone who is a better researcher than I am. According to the NTSB, flight 77's autopilot was disengaged at 7000 feet. When was it engaged?

It was not reengaged below 7000. It was initially engaged during the climb after takeoff (about 15, 500 feet.). It was disengaged then immediately reengaged several times during the descent around 24,000 feet. Whoever was flying was very familiar with the autopilot operation including altitude preselect and heading select.

In the tabular FDR data column E is the altitude and L and M are the left and right autopilots. CMD L ENG means left autopilot is engaged ENG NOT means not engaged. CMD R ENG means right autopilot is engaged and ENG NOT means it is not. You can scroll down and see at which altitude each autopilot is engaged or disengaged.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Pentagon no plane hoaxers take heed! The north of the Citgo flight path has yet another problem!

This thread is a joke.

Neither PFT nor CIT has EVER asserted that the FDR is from the plane that flew over the Pentagon.

Therefore the entire idiotic premise of this thread is blown out of the water with one sentence.

Disprove Ed Paik, Robert Turcios, Chad Brooks, and Bill Lagasse or give up your pathetically transparent attempt to neutralize and cast doubt with this lame deception.

Originally posted by Jack Tripper

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Pentagon no plane hoaxers take heed! The north of the Citgo flight path has yet another problem!

This thread is a joke.

Neither PFT nor CIT has EVER asserted that the FDR is from the plane that flew over the Pentagon.

Really? The impression I got from the Pilots was that this FDR from the plane showed that it really flew too north and too high. So this was created separatley from the fDR when they were trying to concoct the official story to replace the real and covered-up black box, and as they're programming completely fake flight paths, accidentall programmed and ANIMATED the real path and then slipped and released it - repeatedly?

Talk about a joke.

Therefore the entire idiotic premise of this thread is blown out of the water with one sentence.

Disprove Ed Paik, Robert Turcios, Chad Brooks, and Bill Lagasse or give up your pathetically transparent attempt to neutralize and cast doubt with this lame deception.

They programmed the animation too? I think I missed something...

Thanks for your insights.
Now to the other thread... sure you're having a chuckle or a scowl over some of that stuff...

ETA: I'm not being too trucey, sorry.
Jack: I admire your inspiring certainty. That's all 9/11 Truth needs man. Keep it up!

[edit on 5-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by johndoex

Now Nick will probably refuse to click those links. But his questions are answered. I could have shown this information in a phone call in a fraction of the time it took to type it.

But then we wouldn't have it readily available for other people here to read and debunk along with me? The "phone call" ploy seems like nothing more than an attempt to bury the unraveling of your claims.

So I read the mathematical "reverse engineering" post that you claim PROVES that the animation data was doctored. Sorry, it doesn't. It's premise is totally flawed. But I'm guessing you don't have the math or statistics background to understand it, so you just went along with it because it helped support your theories.

This seems to be the predominant pattern here -things that support your theory = good, things that don't support your theory = bad.

Perhaps Nick has an agenda to distract me from my work in playing dumb while not doing his own research. It is a tactic many shills use.

I think I remember seeing an example almost identical to this in an article about how to indentify narcissistic personality disorder or paranoid delusions. But I can't remember which it was. Maybe I'll look it up later.

So, i'll leave you all with the above information that is readily available that Nick obviously cannot find. It is clear he does not want a recorded call cause he would much rather waste more time behind his screen.

No, I prefer to debate the issues in this arena where other people can jump in an comment on the points raised. Plus, the discussion will be such that it will also provide time to do additional research which wouldn't be possible in a 30 minute phone call, especially when such a call would consist primarily of your repeating misinformation and ad hominem attacks.

By the way, thanks for the link to the FOIA request form. I didn't know you could do the request online. Now I'll be receiving my own CDs in 3 weeks to 1 year.

Originally posted by johnlear

Rob, let me respectfully suggest that you have wasted enough time here. Nick is arguing to just to argue. He is on a search for the guilty and he really doesn't care if the innocent get blamed in the process. He has even attacked me and all I was trying to do was tell them the difference between magnetic heading and true heading.

John, let me respectfully suggest that you have not spent ENOUGH time looking into what P49T is putting your name on. They've put out a press release on 3/26/07 signed by "John Lear" that describes an interpretation of the animation video which you hadn't seen unitl a few days ago.

They're touting a mathematical "reverse engineering" of the animation that they've concluded is PROOF the animation was doctored. Have you read this analyis? Do you understand it enough to endorse it?

I never meant any personal disrespect to you, and I feel bad if you think I've attacked you in any way. That wasn't my intention. That said, if I disagree with your views or opinions, I will tell you. I've never once personally attacked you. Maybe you're just used to claiming that you've been personally attacked, but I'm not going to allow that allegation towards me go unchallenged. It's bs.

They think they have uncovered some gigantic scam and the only thing they have really uncovered is how little they know.

John, this is just being dishonest and unfair, especially when you didn't even know the animation video existed until a couple of days ago. And I'm not sure you still understand the significance of the 70 degree instrument heading that's shown in the animation video.

They are not interested in facts or answers. They are only interested in placing blame. You need to move on, nobody who knows the facts will blame you one bit for not continuing to try to explain the facts in the face of, well, the less that knowledgeable.

Again John, this is being dishonest and unfair.

All of us, you and me and Nick and CL and all the others all we are trying to find is the truth. I am sure that Nick means well, but, he is, how to put it tactfully.....less than gracious.

Funny how my level of graciousness seems to decrease as I'm insulted. I can play this both ways too, either with dignity and respect or like a street fight. Don't expect your condescending, insulting personal commentary to be answered with "Let's all bow our heads to the great John Lear and Robert Balsamo" cult. I respect your professional accomplishments and what you've done in your life. But that does not give you a license to made insulting comments about me.

I would suggest discussing the issues and not the person. But of course much of the P49T claims are based on WHO is making them and their credentials, not the substance of the claims.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

Really? The impression I got from the Pilots was that this FDR from the plane showed that it really flew too north and too high. So this was created separatley from the fDR when they were trying to concoct the official story to replace the real and covered-up black box, and as they're programming completely fake flight paths, accidentall programmed and ANIMATED the real path and then slipped and released it - repeatedly?

Talk about a joke.

All PFT has done is shine a spotlight on the ANOMALIES with the FDR in regards to the official story. They have made no claims about the flyover plane that all the witnesses saw. They are completely separate lines of inquiry. It is YOU who are inferring details that neither of us ever claimed.

They programmed the animation too? I think I missed something...

Thanks for your insights.
Now to the other thread... sure you're having a chuckle or a scowl over some of that stuff...

ETA: I'm not being too trucey, sorry.
Jack: I admire your inspiring certainty. That's all 9/11 Truth needs man. Keep it up!

[edit on 5-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

All we have to do is prove one part of the operation a hoax to prove 9/11 was an inside job.

Just like controlled demolition at the towers or wtc 7 doesn't solve the crime but it proves inside job......it's the exact same thing with the north side claim.

The north side claim has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt and you have done NOTHING to show otherwise.

Craig,

dont bother. They will never get it.

These guys have such poor research ability they didnt even know you can fill out an FOIA request on the NTSB website.. meanwhile they go on for 10 pages and several threads claiming the NTSB animation is fabricated by P4T. Thats all the information you need to understand the discipline of their work.

On a side note, our organization is looking into a possible slander/libel suit. Contact me for details.

We already have the name of one.. i dont expect little Nicky to fess up to his name or credentials... but we can get it through the webmaster im sure if needed. I have a feeling we're dealing with teens. That is why Nick doesnt want to get on the phone.

Originally posted by johndoex

On a side note, our organization is looking into a possible slander/libel suit.

Rob,

Let me respectfully suggest that you don't even bother. Its unlikely that, although their intentions may have been misguided, they were likely to convince anybody of anything.

Lets look at the facts.

After 10 pages of hysteria all they have are unfounded and uninformed accusations.

None of the noisey participants have one iota the credentials, experience and/or education of the P4911T.

None know how to read (or even open) the tabular data of #77.

I would respectfully suggest that the closest any of them ever got to an accident investigation prior to 911 was watching "Fate Is The Hunter" after cartoons on Saturday morning.

Let me suggest that you leave them alone. I'll keep track of the jokes. Thanks

Originally posted by johnlear


None know how to read (or even open) the tabular data of #77.

lol... why does that not surprise me... too funny.

You're probably right john, a suit is probably giving them more attention than they deserve... Kids.. what are ya gonna do...