Can Atheists and Christians engage in civilised debate, Hell yes.

Lately i've noticed quite a bit of heated dialogue between both Christians and Atheists in various threads that usually degenerates into bickering and any chance at all of logical, civilised conversation is soon lost.

I'm as guilty of this as anyone and in an effort to have more meaningful and educational discussion between both party's would like to open this thread up for civil, rational discourse/debate only.

I came across this article today and it caused me to stop and think about how i perceive Christians and my reactions to their beliefs. Here's some excerpts from the article,

Amid the rising heat of this latest culture clash, though, a few people on both sides are finding calmer ways to engage, seeking to build bridges and even learn from one another. Some Christians, concerned that millions of Americans never cross the threshold of a church, want to understand why, as well as learn what it is in evangelistic efforts that turns people off. Some atheists, worried that polls show they are the least accepted social group in the country, want to break down stereotypes and change people's attitudes.

Henderson's experiences have led him, with his "Off The Map" venture, into "something larger than evangelism," what he calls "otherliness." Otherliness – "the spirituality of serving others" – involves "drawing people into the idea of paying real attention to each other, of listening." He wants to teach individuals and groups of all kinds how to do a much better job of listening to those they interact with.

Full article here

Here we are on a website dedicated to "Deny Ignorance" yet even a simple discussion about our beliefs is soon lost amidst a storm of accusation and counter accusation, name calling and useless banter.

Cant we, as members of this wonderful board lead the way in building a better understanding of both of our opposing belief systems.

Dont we all want whats best for ourselves, our family's, friends, the homeless, the sick, the old and impoverished, believers and disbelievers, i know i do. Can i learn something from Christians, i believe so, can you learn something beneficial from us Atheists, i would hope so.

Okay i'll start by saying that i do have a narrow view of Christianity and religion in general, i've always held the belief that religion has been the bane of mankind for thousands of years, this is obviously not the case, and is a broad generalisation, and it seems from discussions i've had with Christians on this board that atheists are seen as somehow less worthy, less spiritual, less caring human beings, this is also wrong.

Are we able to put aside our differences and work at building a better understanding of what it means to be who we are as people rather than who we are perceived to be because of our beliefs, i think we can, in fact i'm sure that if anyone can it would be the membership of this board.

What are your belief's and what do you perceive the others to be, whether Christian or Atheist. Do you think that we can have rational, civil dialogue or not. Can we lead the way so that others may follow. What do we have in common that we can use to build a better stronger relationship.

I'll start by promising not to denigrate your beliefs if you'll do the same.

Look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Cheers mojo.

Unfortunately, the most vocal ones on both sides are the true believers. They have real difficulty discussing reasonably and are more interested in diatribe.

At my first job out of college, some of the guys in my lab introduced me to a young guy in the specifications section. They knew I was a non-theist and he was a strong Christian. The idea was, "let's you and him fight, and we'll have fun and watch." We felt each other out very gingerly, so the other guys got bored and left. It didn't take too long for us to agree that there was no proof for or against god, but that he believed by faith and his reasonable extrapolations of the world around him. I disbelieved by faith and by MY reasonable extrapolations of the world around me.

We had many useful discussions from then on. Neither of us convinced or even tried to convince the other, but we both learned a great deal about the reasoning and beliefs of the other, and it helped both of us strengthen the basis for our disparate beliefs.

However, I find that often on Internet forums the reasonable, moderate posts get ignored while the inflammatory ones get all the attention.

Occam

Unfortunately, Mojo, I think in the great majority of cases we cannot have a meaningful debate without resorting to one side or the other going off on a tangent or being snarky or just plain nasty. People seem to get really defensive about things they believe but cannot prove.

It doesn't mean I'm giving up, though. I'm having a fine old time seeing whose skin my unbelief gets under and who flies off the handle at rational discourse.

I'll give it a shot and I will do my best and answer with the best of my ability.

Originally posted by Occam
Unfortunately, the most vocal ones on both sides are the true believers. They have real difficulty discussing reasonably and are more interested in diatribe.

When I left the church I met with one of my "former" friends at his home one evening. We "debated" all night. He kept accusing me of pretending to be Christian for all those years, just as WiseSheep does. I certainly know the truth about myself, let alone god.

There is a very clear difference between atheism and Christianity or any cult-religion. Reality. It is outright on the side of atheists. It is our exclusive territory. Perhaps the single greatest reason for terrorism is the fact that reality does not conform to belief systems no matter how internally consistent they are.

At my first job out of college, ...

Where I work, there are no Christians at all. They've were all fired because they were all annoying jerks. Not only did they play loud Christian rock music for "our benefit", and try to convert everyone, they horsed around in the office and made fools of themselves in front of our clients. That's not to say there aren't companies run by Christians and tolerant of them, they are just not as professional. I didn't request these Christian tracts with my order.

It didn't take too long for us to agree that there was no proof for or against god, but that he believed by faith and his reasonable extrapolations of the world around him. I disbelieved by faith and by MY reasonable extrapolations of the world around me.

If you want to be a global skeptic, you may as well believe you are in "The Matrix", but there is evidence against this is you look for it.

Neither of us convinced or even tried to convince the other,...

I would be looking for signs of brainwashing/mind control and point them out to him. It is no secret that such techniques are written into The Bible. Being aware of them is the first step in finding freedom.

However, I find that often on Internet forums the reasonable, moderate posts get ignored while the inflammatory ones get all the attention.

The most damning posts are the ones that get ignored. Anytime I point out a glaring error to a Christian, I am ignored.

I would be looking for signs of brainwashing/mind control and point them out to him. It is no secret that such techniques are written into The Bible. Being aware of them is the first step in finding freedom.

Well, I knew that I couldn't convince him, but I felt that if we examined the topic reasonably so he wasn't polarized and driven to defending his beliefs, he might consider them later, by himself, and gradually wean himself away from his theism.

Occam

Originally posted by Occam
Well, I knew that I couldn't convince him,...

You know what they say about failure.

...so he wasn't polarized and driven to defending his beliefs, he might consider them later, by himself,...

You are partly right, I'm normally a quiet person in real life, but sometimes I lose it with these invincibly ignorant people. That never helps.

On the other hand, these people are never "by themselves" or alone. They fill the void in their lives, remember. There are bible-studies they go to several times a week, chapel services several times a week, Kristian Karate Kult lessons, all opportunities to seek reinforcement of the brainwashing, and they partake of it.

This used to be my life.

...and gradually wean himself away from his theism.

There's something gradual about it, in that you keep trying to go back, like a drunk going back to the bottle. We need help, but the wrong kind of help is ubiquitous in our lives.

At least, that is why I choose to make myself available as much as I can.

Most religions are faith based and are subjective, one person sees it one way, another person sees it another way. One can use it to support or argue against anything in anyway one sees fit, and be blind to other interpretations.

It can be twisted or interpreted in anyway one chooses to see it, for good or for evil.

If one was within that religion, one generally wants to believe that their religion is the one and only right path, and all others are wrong. It becomes a bias opinion. They will generally not question and follow whatever their high priest or deity wants/demands/request.

How does one debate with a subject so faith based and subjective?

It is possible to have a civilised debate, yes. It is good to have one, however it isn't that common.

I think the best debate here was the Role reversal Debate, as it was more interesting as you actually have to twist your standard arguments to work.

BTW Columbus, how can one sheep have so much blood in your Avatar?

Why don't people just leave well enough alone? :shk:

Look, do I believe in God, yes. Do I necessarily think everyone does or should?I don't really care what anyone does or does not believe.

I have some beliefs that do not really coincide with any organized religion's beliefs, so, I really have no room to judge anyone. I couldn't really care less.

Do I try to convince people that I am right? Well, yes and no. If I see that my efforts are futile, I leave well enough alone. To try and convince an atheist that there is a God or anything that is not visible is like trying to convince a mainstream Christian that their doctrines have been tampered with through the centuries. It's a no go.

I have, particularly on this board, quit trying to convince either side of anything. I just let everyone believe as they will and then in the end, we will see.

Really, why get all worked up about what someone else believes? I get angry about some issues,usually political ones.Political issues are issues that someone can do something about. I can't do anything about spiritual issues; I certainly cannot make an atheist or anyone else change their views, so I have quit trying. I quit getting angry over spiritual issues a long, long time ago. I just about come to the conclusion that no one really knows what they are talking about when it comes to spiritual issues anyway, be they atheist or not.





[edit on 14-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

originally posted by occam However, I find that often on Internet forums the reasonable, moderate posts get ignored while the inflammatory ones get all the attention.

Yep, thats exactly why i thought it would be good to find some like minded people from both sides who may be interested in discussion rather than diatribe. I'm not necessarily looking to change my beliefs but i would like to learn more about why others hold the beliefs that they do.

Originally posted by ixiy
Most religions are faith based and are subjective, one person sees it one way, another person sees it another way. One can use it to support or argue against anything in anyway one sees fit, and be blind to other interpretations.
How does one debate with a subject so faith based and subjective?

Surely we can discuss our beliefs or non beliefs even if they are poles apart in a civilised manner. Just dont see it happening here for some reason, even when a thread starts off with meaningful dialogue it soon degenerates into bickering from both sides.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Do I try to convince people that I am right? Well, yes and no. If I see that my efforts are futile, I leave well enough alone. To try and convince an atheist that there is a God or anything that is not visible is like trying to convince a mainstream Christian that their doctrines have been tampered with through the centuries. It's a no go.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything but i am interested in learning more about why we all hold certain beliefs, i'd just like to do it as if i was sitting down having a cold one with you and chatting, rather than the chat turning into a bun fight, no one learns anything.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Really, why get all worked up about what someone else believes? I get angry about some issues,usually political ones.Political issues are issues that someone can do something about. I can't do anything about spiritual issues; I certainly cannot make an atheist or anyone else change their views, so I have quit trying. I quit getting angry over spiritual issues a long, long time ago. I just about come to the conclusion that no one really knows what they are talking about when it comes to spiritual issues anyway, be they atheist or not.

So basically i should just not bother trying to understand another persons point of view in a civilised productive discussion. I think i'll keep trying.
You obviously have some alternative views, i'd be interested in hearing them as i would any others without anyone feeling as though they had to defend their beliefs.

cheers mojo.

Mojo, oh, I am not criticizing the thread. I just think it's too bad that such threads as this have to be posted. I didn't mean for you or anyone else to take offense.

You have good points, mojo. I admit that I've let my fur get up a couple of times, though I'm really trying to practice tact in a heated situation.

I am interested in what people believe and why also. I can try to damp down another step or two and attempt at being less snarky. It's worth a shot anyway. If the rules of order can't be adhered to, we'll soon see what (or who) the real problem is.

No offense taken SoT, and i did mean that i would be interested in what you believe, without ragging on them as i promised in the OP.

MajorMalfunction, i'm as much to blame as anyone for digging my heels in and not listening when i should, just the article posted in my OP got me thinking and i realised that i really would like to learn more about why we cant discuss our religious or non-religious beliefs in a civilised manner, it goes against everything that i try to tell my kids.

Ya know, if we can figure out the why maybe we can solve a lot of the world's problems between different religious factions. I'm not holding my breath that we'll get to the bottom of it, but it will be interesting to try.

Mojo, I believe in so many things that there is probably not enough space here.

I will try to simplify it as much as I can.


Here are ways that I am a typical Christian.

1) I believe in God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son.

2) I believe in the Ten Commandments and most of the moral precepts of Christianity.

How I am so much unlike most Christians

1) I am a Universalist. If you are not sure what that is, think Quakers or "New age" theories about the spirit and such.

2) I have read about many,many different religions. I have read about Christianity, Hinduism, various different occult beliefs et cetera.

3) I believe that people have the right to believe whatever they wish. No one should be forced to believe in any one religion.

Mojo, as far as me getting into specifics and going into long lectures about what I believe in regards to aspects of spiritual reality, it would take up far too much space. I will give you an overview of some of my intrinsic points of view.

1) I believe that that which we call "reality" only exists within the mind of God. That is why I am not so shocked by many of the theories in quantum physics. It all makes perfect sense to me.

2) I believe that there is only one ultimate consciousness.

3) I believe that in due time, all things will be revealed and that God actually uses science as a method of revealing things to humanity.

4) I think that there is a definite difference between the soul and spirit of man. I have written extensively on this subject and relayed my belief as best as I can to members of the board.

5) Some would probably classify me more as a "New Ager" than a Christian. However, I classify myself as a Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ. I thank him and the heavenly Father for all things.

6) I believe that one can believe in evolution and God as well. I really don't get the whole Evolution/Creationism debate.

7) I have always thought, on up until relatively recently, that humanity would ultimately be okay. Now, I am not so sure.


I can go on and on, but you should be able, at least somewhat, to decipher that I am not the typical Christian, nor am I the typical "New Ager" either. I really don't know what most would classify me as. I just classify myself as me.

Thanks SoT.
You know i'm an Atheist yet there are things that we have in common, *shock horror gasp*.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
2) I believe in the Ten Commandments and most of the moral precepts of Christianity.

I believe in the concept of some of these commandments and the ethics and morality of some of the Churches teachings, as should anyone with common sense. Kindness, caring and love for your fellows should be in all our heart's whether Atheist or Christian.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
2) I have read about many,many different religions. I have read about Christianity, Hinduism, various different occult beliefs et cetera.

As have i, but my understanding of what i have read is limited, maybe i just dont get it.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruth3) I believe that people have the right to believe whatever they wish. No one should be forced to believe in any one religion.

I agree wholeheartedly unfortunately this belief is in short supply in the world today.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruthThat is why I am not so shocked by many of the theories in quantum physics.

This is where i believe the true answer lies but probably not in the same way as you do.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
6) I believe that one can believe in evolution and God as well. I really don't get the whole Evolution/Creationism debate.

Likewise.

originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
7) I have always thought, on up until relatively recently, that humanity would ultimately be okay. Now, I am not so sure.

I'm convinced that we'll get it right eventually.

So i guess we are almost 50/50 on some things, can i ask, was there a moment in your life that this all came together for you or has it been a gradual learning curve. Have you always believed.

thanks mojo.

Originally posted by mojo4sale

So i guess we are almost 50/50 on some things, can i ask, was there a moment in your life that this all came together for you or has it been a gradual learning curve. Have you always believed.

thanks mojo.

It has happened gradually. There was a time in my life when I doubted the existence of God, gasp, yes, there was a time when I had doubts. However, I have had experiences in my life and I have "seen" things that have led me to believe that there is more than we realize.

But, as to my beliefs, yeah, I have come upon them gradually. I personally believe that God has led me to my beliefs for a reason. What that reason or purpose is just yet, I don't know.

SoT, You and I are very like minded with beliefs. I'm with you on most of what you said..

I started out a born, raised and brainwashed catholic. I was looking to become a nun from the age of 10, and studied extra to do so through out parts of my life. It's not cause my beliefs were so deep, that I thought god wanted me to do that.. but actually, I thought that nun's had a wonderful life. I outgrew that.

When I went to college, I had what I like to call a spiritual awaking. No, I'm not talking about being born again, or anything like that.. only that I started questioning my brainwashing.

I came up with this. There is no one true god, all gods are true. It doesn't matter which one you pray to, what name you call it... what you choose to have faith in (even if it's just yourself) as long as you have faith. If you don't believe in god, or believe in one, or believe in a million, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.

I do believe in Jesus, and think his teachings are really what we should try to emulate. Forgiveness, tolerance, peace, love, care, acceptance, charity, and honesty should be what we should really set our caps for. If the whole world lived with these principles, war would be a thing of the past. You don't have to believe he's the son of god, you don't have to believe that he can save you. Try to be like him. (Which ironically, I've found more atheist that emulated Christ's life, than Christians...)

I don't believe we should waste time trying to tell each other that we are wrong, cause in my mind, both sides are right. There is no god, there is a god... You can't disprove or prove either way, so in my opinion, that makes it just a matter of faith (like Occam said).

Anyone so ridged on either side, really should relax and calm down. There are better things to get upset about than if there's a god. At least that's my opinion.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by JessicaS]

Basically, with my beliefs, we all (except atheists) worship the same God, and all religions are different ways of looking at the same thing, as it were. Sort of similar to looking at the world with quantum physics and classical physics.

I also don't believe that God is as powerful in this world as most religions say he is. Or if he is, that he does not use his abilities much.

But if you wish to not believe, then what can I say to make you believe.