WTC7 Faked Image

bsbray11

I estimate that picture was taken at 13:00 +/- 10 mins.

ETA Corrected time - forgot to adjust for EDT

[edit on 14-5-2007 by coughymachine]

Originally posted by bsbray11It's steeper than either of your others, yet this is supposed to be from the same helicopter pass.

I know I'm a novice at this, but I think I can state categorically that the two pictures were not taken in the same helicopter pass, unless it hovered there for several hours.

Originally posted by bsbray11It's steeper than either of your others, yet this is supposed to be from the same helicopter pass (maybe it wasn't after all?).

Sorry for the multiple posts.

Your pink line is going the wrong side of the 13:21 line in my view. Here is why.

First, plot the 13:21 line on the OP (red line) then extend the relevant shadow (black line). i think you might have extended the wrong part of the shadow.



This gives us around 8 degrees ahead of the 13:21 line. Plotting it on the aerial view gives this:



The red line near the pink line is at 12:52. So I estimate the pink line at 13:00.

Here's the Verizon Building and WTC7:




And here are some shadows on the Verizon Building's roof that I've circled in red:




Any problem with those?


You'll see that they're pretty much perpendicular to the tall, white, box-shaped object towards the back of the roof. Can we agree on this as well?

Now identify that same object in the first image in this post, and you have light angles pointing thus:




Still perpendicular to the white object towards the back of the building's roof, but the angles are significantly different than the ones you ascribe.



Your angle for the same photo is one of the green lines, right?


What have I done wrong?

[edit on 14-5-2007 by bsbray11]

Cool! Okay, so we'ce established the rof damage was induced before about 1:00 pm, the corner damage was there by about 3:30 pm.
Now how aout this photo?



This one:



This one?


I'm not trying to make your head blow up here. I'll look at them once I hit post and guess my own times. Others feel free! Remember sun starts falling on the west wall after 13:21 or 1:21 pm. West in shadow = before that.

BSRay, these are't the right shadow lines to be looking at. Look at my pic a few pages back, and look mostly at window sills in the WTC7, the shadow of the pipe thing at the back of that building, et - shadows of vertical lines.

Not to seem dumb with my picture questions above, Coughymachine, I know you already posted a time and drew the line for the first shot, this is more for the benefit of others to see we can see the time of any of these shots.

First one, showing no damage at that corner location, seen from between 2 WFC and AmEx 3 WFC: I agree that's about 15:00 from the shadow lines we can see.

Second one: Actually I think this is shortly before 13:21? Hmmm... And we aren't agreed on what danage that is, but it's there at whatever time this is.

Third one: not many shadow lines, just the darkened west wall, which says somewhat before 13:21, right?



[edit on 14-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

[edit on 14-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
BSRay, these are't the right shadow lines to be looking at.

Wtf? lol. Then what's specifically wrong with them? That's what I'm asking.

I honestly didn't see anything that clear in WTC7's windows in terms of light angles. You know light can be diffused, right? And still have angles. That's why I said you should try for the roof of the Verizon Building, because it has the least obstruction.

Originally posted by bsbray11Any problem with those?

The problem, I think, is that your image contrast is misleading. The one below is better for establishing shadows on the west side of the Verizon building.

Within each of the three circles you can clearly make out shadows or lighting effects that can only have been formed if the sun was striking the west side.



The light doesn't strike the west side until after 14:10, although at that time, it would be unnoticable. There is sufficient angle here to suggest this picture was taken at around 15:30.

Okay, step back then... That roof is nothing but obstruction and its orientation is not quite the same. The most relevant angles are where the sun hits WTC7 and that angle is clear to see on numerous window sills. It's not far off from perpend. to the stuff on the Verizon roof, but closer to CM's angle for 3:30.




It's the vertical window framing that casts these shadows, vertical lines are what show sun movement, horizontal shadowa stay parallel to their source until they stretch over the horizon into night. There are few clear vertical lines on the roof showing the position, which is why I look on the WTC. This is just about 3:30 pm.

Right?

[edit on 14-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Not to seem dumb with my picture questions above, Coughymachine, I know you already posted a time and drew the line for the first shot, this is more for the benefit of others to see we can see the time of any of these shots.

Well, hmmm. The ABC news shot is timestamped at 13:54 EDT. This is a full half hour after I estimated the sun would first strike the west wall. And yet clearly the west wall is dark(er than the south). A couple of explanations - perhaps you could check?

• I have north (red lines) going straight up in my composite aerial shot. Do you agree?
  
  
• I have the blue line marked 13:21, marking the west wall of the WTC7, at 192 degrees from north in my composite aerial shot. Do you agree?

If so, then the only explanation I can think of is that the sun's angle of incident (terminology?!?!?) at 13:54 is not sufficient to illuminate the west wall, especially since the south wall is being struck at a near perpendicular angle, providing considerable contrast. See the pink line in the image below.

I've actually tried this at home with a desk lamp. I switched the lights off (it's 1:00am here) and shone the lamp at the angle of a wall and slowly brought it round. When the light strikes the previously dark face of the wall, it is comparatively dim. Is this the effect we're seeing here or is this a cop out to mask poor analysis?

Actually, I've just noticed that, under the Y of New York in the ABC still, light does seem to be catching what appears to be a lamp post??? If so, then we can assume, I think, that the sun has crept around to the west face but is not striking it at an angle sufficient to brighten it significantly.

I'm guessing there's a window of some time (??) when the sun would not reaaly catch and reflect noticeably. If this is really 13:54, I guess that's quite possibly in that window of time. Seems a bit late but I dunno.

Unfortumately I need to get to work soon, so hopefuly something will get figured out by later tonight.

Right...

I'm pretty sure my aerial is oriented North-South. Here's my aerial shot overlaid onto a Google Earth image, which is oriented North.



It seems pretty conclusive.

I also think its kinda hard to be too far out with the angle of the west side of WTC7 (the 13:21 line in my earlier analysis). Even allowing for a poorly drawn line along its edge, I can't be more that a couple of degrees off, which equates to 10 minutes max.

So, I feel fairly sure now that this is a case of the sun not strinking the west wall at 13:54 at a sufficient angle to illuminate it.

Ok, so what I was doing that took time, was a google image search on WTC7.

Page after page after page of the images we've seen before, I have hit on some I've never seen before..






All taken from this italian site, here www.attivissimo.net...

Index is here, with some other great pics, most high-res www.attivissimo.net...

If anyone speaks italian, maybe they'd try to translate this page for us..

I'll let you all take a look at the images, and then I'll weigh in with my opinions

Thanks for the new images and welcome back! Just in time to give us more timeable shots…

First picture: Excellent shot of little seen upper SW corner damage (also catching light a 13:54 above) – this one’s later, but not many clear shadow lines. With light breaking on that wall by about 14:00 and sun setting at 18:32, this looks to be, say 2:45 pm?

The second shot is one we’ve been looking at since page 1, seems to be at 15:00 and oddly shows no corner damage. As I see more shots of that corner damage from before that time, I’m beginning to think THIS ONE was altered.

The third shot is new to me. It shows part of the massive center gouge, and seems to be from somewhat later, past 3 pm?

Great finds. I like the site just fine without words – just the pictures and plenty of ‘em. If yu can find this page in a Google search (try searching for a quoted snippet from the page) it may offer to translate for you…

One thing I’m noticing is the dearth of photos showing the south face – There are those that try, but that curtain of smoke happens to blow out to the south and greatly obscures all views. I'd be curious how the smoke levels vried throughout the day (a lot of good shots of mass smoke at that site)

Here’s another that seems to show the topmost part of the lower corner gouge.


Another excellent view of it from below that I hadn’t seen yet:



[edit on 15-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by coughymachine
The problem, I think, is that your image contrast is misleading.

So what? I didn't circle shadows in my image? You circled three completely different things in your image.

What did I circle? Are they shadows or not?

Within each of the three circles you can clearly make out shadows or lighting effects that can only have been formed if the sun was striking the west side.

In each of those you see diffused sunlight. My shadows are darker, and I wouldn't chalk that up to a contrast problem with the image.

Originally posted by Inannamute
Index is here, with some other great pics, most high-res www.attivissimo.net...

Yeah no kidding:


Turns out a "Willie Cirone" grabbed a shot of that alley without the sunglare. This character is rather elusive on google, but someone pointed that image out at the Loose Change forums and claimed it is somewhere in the NIST Report.
www.google.com...


EDIT: This shot was taken at a later time than the other alley images.

[edit on 15-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Fig. 13c: The pedestrian bridge, still intact after the collapse of WTC1.

Is that WTC7?

Here's another shot:



I can't place them from any of the stret shots I'm familiar with.

FEMA pedestrian bridge:

I thot you'd like Cirone's corner shot, was gonna U2u you. I looked at his bridge pic too, from the NIST's interim report slideshow thing, and thot it was WTC7 too, since it's in the report about that, but CM helped me get turned around - it's taken at the base of the south side looking south, away from the building, oddly enough.