YOU are not the Bible's target audience.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well... we don't stone disobedient children, sell our daughters into slavery.. i mean marriage, marriage to girls hitting puberty is frowned upon in most of the world, we don't think the sun revolves around the earth, and each person on this forum has access to more information than was available in the hundreds and thousands of years in which the bible was put together and written.

Then...Can I assume your statement is that these things are true of every age and every culture except our own (with the exception of the last)?

Originally posted by marg6043
Like FlyersFan said it was until later . . .AD that the new testament was used to spread a new version of the early believes by the Jewish into a new religion that will target the entire world.

But still this was done by men on an agenda.

Men on an agenda huh? Why would men with an agenda sacrifice their lives and die as martyrs for a cause that they didn't even believe in? Why would the apostles of Jesus Christ give themselves over to be dragged by horses till dead, be skinned alive to die from blood loss, have their intestines attached to a revolving chain which pulled their organs out, be crucified upside down (St. Peter), be crucified on an X (St. Andrew), and beheaded (John the baptist and Paul)? I ask of you, why?


* I'll be back to add some more ways that the twelve apostles were murdered for their beliefs

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
I ask of you, why?

* I'll be back to add some more ways that the twelve apostles were murdered for their beliefs

The fact that they were murdered for their beliefs does not justify or give any more credibility to their beliefs.

Several kamikazes blow themselves up each day for islam and I'm not going to believe in Allah anytime soon.

Originally posted by DarkSide
Several kamikazes blow themselves up each day for islam and I'm not going to believe in Allah anytime soon.

The point is not do you believe, but did they believe. Do you think those people who blow themselves up each day for Islam believe Islam is true? If not, why would they blow themselves up?

Going off of that logic, you have to ask yourself, why would 11 of the 12 people who walked with Jesus during His ministry allow themselves to be taken and killed or tortured, many on several occasions, when all they had to do to avoid it was to deny Jesus Christ? Do you think they believed what they were preaching? If they believed it, why, if they were eyewitnesses to His ministry and supposed resurrection?

Originally posted by junglejake
The point is not do you believe, but did they believe. Do you think those people who blow themselves up each day for Islam believe Islam is true? If not, why would they blow themselves up?

Oh, unfortunately for them, they do.

Going off of that logic, you have to ask yourself, why would 11 of the 12 people who walked with Jesus during His ministry allow themselves to be taken and killed or tortured, many on several occasions, when all they had to do to avoid it was to deny Jesus Christ? Do you think they believed what they were preaching? If they believed it, why, if they were eyewitnesses to His ministry and supposed resurrection?

Well, we know for a fact kamikaze terrorists that blow themselves up in the name of god exist. However, Jesus and the apostles are nothing more than characters in a 2000 year old mythological book, therefore there is no certainty that was is written about jesus and his apotles is true or not.

In the same line, there are numerous sects that organized collective suicides were 40+ people died for beliefs that were not real...

TheB1ueSoldier

Well it seems that your question was answered by other members, but we can not denied that in "Name of God" many people has committed self destruction and also great pains in this world, wars, genocides, act of terrorism. . . you name it. all because of faith.

Originally posted by DarkSide
However, Jesus and the apostles are nothing more than characters in a 2000 year old mythological book, therefore there is no certainty that was is written about jesus and his apotles is true or not.

Well if you want to get ridiculous about it, how do we know you really exsist? All I see is some text appearing on my screen so by application of the same logic, you must be mythological.
Unfortunately for your arguement, the Bible also seems to Cooincide with the histories of other cultures as well, there really was a Roman Empire, there really is/was a place called Jerusalem. It would be sad to think your obvious predjudices against christianity would have caused you to reject 2000 years worth of recorded history just out of hand like that.
There's never proof of anything save some carved stones and tablets and the occasional entombed remains, but then again there's no proof to the contrary either so perhaps you should ask yourself why you are so quick to discredit the unknown?
Christianity is under constant attack in the media here lately, perhaps your opinion is derived from less than objective sources? Don't buy into that crap they are running on the Discovery Channel, History Channel, and any other garbage spewing out of your television set lately, there's your agenda man.

Originally posted by marg6043

TheB1ueSoldier

Well it seems that your question was answered by other members, but we can not denied that in "Name of God" many people has committed self destruction and also great pains in this world, wars, genocides, act of terrorism. . . you name it.

all because of faith.

No.........all because of blindness. They have been deceived by the deceiver. Their actions then deceive you.

Originally posted by marg6043
Well it seems that your question was answered by other members

My question was not answered at all.

I will dissect each specific example that you've given me. (cults, suicide bombers, WWII kamikaze pilots) :


1) An Islamic suicide bomber is not just a civilian who just decides to strap plastic explosives to themselves one day and walk into a public area. They are highly trained Muslims who spend half a decade training in an "army" that brainwashes them and removes all self identity from them. In those years, they are drowned in propaganda and brainwashed on a daily basis to believe in a false doctrine that is not even acknowledged by the wider Islamic community or even the Koran. An Islamic suicide bomber's motive is based on false faith and to venerate their family name.

"His actions provide a win-win scenario for himself, his family, his faith and his God... The bomber secures salvation and the pleasures of Paradise. He earns a degree of financial security and a place for his family in Paradise. ... memorialized as a valorous fighter ...the selfless sacrifice by the individual Muslim to destroy Islam's enemies becomes a suitable, feasible and acceptable course of action."

3 things happen after a successful suicide bombing. The suicide bomber's family is given financial compensation, the suicide bomber himself is guaranteed a spot in heaven, and the suicide bomber's family name is memorialized and honoured. And, let's not forget the dead/wounded enemies, and terror and insecurity it spreads. To the suicide bomber, its a Win/Win situation fueled by propaganda and intensive brainwashing over the course of several years.

Now, how in the world can this be paralleled to the apostles of Jesus Christ? Was John the Baptist's family given money after his beheading? Did Paul's death spread terror and death to the Romans who murdered him? Were the disciples of Jesus Christ brainwashed with propaganda throughout a course of several years? Was St. Andrew promised 50 virgins in heaven after his death? I think not.

There is the similarity of people dying because of their faith, but that is where the similarities end. The suicide bomber's so called "faith" was inspired by years of brainwashing and monetary gain, while the disciple's faith was inspired by the miracles, teachings, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The suicide bomber's death was followed by victims of his blast radius and the insecurity it created in the town that it occurred in, while the murders of Jesus' disciples inspired faith and compassion and formed the rock foundations of the early Churches of the first Christians.

2) WWII kamikaze pilots... It is a common misconception that these pilots were courageous, patriotic heroes who were eager to line up for their final voyages.

an excerpt from Yomiuri Shimbun, a Japanese Newspaper, this particular article was an interview of a former Japanese soldier in WWII:

"It's all a lie," he said angrily, "that they left filled with braveness and joy, crying, 'Long live the emperor!' They were sheep at a slaughterhouse. Everybody was looking down and tottering. Some were unable to stand up and were carried and pushed into the plane by maintenance soldiers."

a quote from Lt. Yukio Seki before he died in a kamikaze mission:

Seki thereby became the 24th kamikaze pilot to be chosen. However, Seki later wrote: "Japan's future is bleak if it is forced to kill one of its best pilots. I am not going on this mission for the Emperor or for the Empire... I am going because I was ordered to."

a quote from an interview with a kamikaze pilot who was later turned down for the mission because of a shortage of planes:

“Three men marked the cross,” he says. “And they were forced to go anyway. Some of them came back saying they couldn’t find the enemy, or that their fuel was running out. They were sent out again. I feel hatred towards those officers who made them go like that...

“They used to tell us that the last words of the pilots were ‘Long Live the Emperor!’,” Mr Hamazono said. “But I am sure that was a lie. They cried out what I would have cried. They called for their mothers.”

Japanese Kamikaze pilots took a combination of sedatives and drugs right before they left for their final flights, which distorted their judgment and common sense. Many pilots would actually return from kamikaze missions because they could not go through with it. This became such a problem that they were eventually ordered to be shot upon their return.

So please, explain to me how their motivation (or lack of motivation) was similar to the motivations and purposes of the disciples of Jesus Christ. Its easy to just make a vague connection between two events, but when you look into them much more deeply, you'll see that they are two completely different things. After this, I really don't feel the need to research and write out a whole history of cults and their similarities (or lack of similarities) to the martyring of John the Baptist and such.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by junglejake
Then...Can I assume your statement is that these things are true of every age and every culture except our own (with the exception of the last)?

no, but they were true during the times that each book of the bible was written.

my point isn't that people were the target audience of the bible 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 300 years ago, and 400 years ago but not now. my point was that the bible was written for a very narrow group of individuals in a very specific culture in a very specific region in a very specific time period and then given to populations that have no idea about how to put documents into allegorical historical contexts. the bible applies as much to us today as it did to native americans at the time it was written because it just wasn't written for US.

TheB1ueSoldier

Well my friend, isn't that what religions are all about? brainwashing the faithful into giving their soul to their believes?

Or you have forgotten the darkest years of Christianity.

I guess when it comes to compare the religions of the world, Christianity has done it all.

In the name of the lord occurs. different times . . . same results.

You're still missing my point, Marg.

My questions is:

Why would the apostles of Jesus Christ give up their lives to be tortured and murdered for their beliefs if they knew that their beliefs were false and made up. Research the scenario before you answer. Read about the torturous ways that the disciples were killed and how they were all separated from one another during their deaths, away from any other disciple that could have influenced their judgment.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
You're still missing my point, Marg.

No, I am not, you are just pushing a religious view.

My questions is:
Why would the apostles of Jesus Christ give up their lives to be tortured and murdered for their beliefs if they knew that their beliefs were false and made up.

For the same reason that any believer will die for theri cause, same purpose different times and different religions.

If you believe in the bible as the truth without questions you are trying to get the right answer from the wrong person .

I like the bible and love the stories in the old testament but . . . my views of God, creator or life force are not limited to the bible.

My point is still being missed...

The disciples of Jesus Christ were not influenced or brainwashed by a large institution, or any church (in fact they were rebelling against the traditional institutions of their day), or any cults. Their direct influence was from living and traveling with Jesus Christ himself. Now please stop flogging the dead horse and answer the question...

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
My point is still being missed...

The disciples of Jesus Christ were not influenced or brainwashed by a large institution, or any church (in fact they were rebelling against the traditional institutions of their day), or any cults. Their direct influence was from living and traveling with Jesus Christ himself. Now please stop flogging the dead horse and answer the question...

Wow, did you actually witness them living and traveling with jesus himself?

Originally posted by DarkSide
Wow, did you actually witness them living and traveling with jesus himself?

No, captain obvious.
Its called research and study. Very useful to do before engaging in a debate (you should try it). ^_^

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
my point was that the bible was written for a very narrow group of individuals in a very specific culture in a very specific region in a very specific time period and then given to populations that have no idea about how to put documents into allegorical historical contexts.

And the point I'm driving at is that the Bible transcends time. That's one of the things that makes it so remarkable. 66 books, 44 authors, 4,000 years in the making (to date), and one story, non-contradictory, of God's plan of redemption for mankind. It was written for us, for you and for me. Just as we can learn from a history book, even though that history doesn't directly apply to us, so too can we learn of God even though the writing may have been written by someone from a different time and be of a different culture. While we, humanity, change with the times and with our cultures, God is unchanging. He is "alpha and omega", or the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

There is so much that can be learned, if we just put our pride in ourselves and in our culture aside and see what we can learn from others, even if we don't hold some of their beliefs in science, in morality, in cultural standards. It can be easy to get caught up in one element of an individual, and ignore anything else they may have to say as a result. Yet, though I may know better about history, and idiot savant could still have much to teach me about math. If we can cast aside our pride and be willing to open our minds in truth and not just words, there's no limit to what we can learn!

Bible teaches there is sin and this means you need to accuse and judge someone which is not what real God does, so Bible is not word of God but blasphemy of worst kind causing much suffering and torture.

Every religion which forces other people to accept it or die should be replaced with humanism. I think, and many would agree, time has come to end all this nonsense.

Religion had it's purpose in history, to guide our civilization, now it's time to wake up and end unneeded pain and injustice. We finally have resources to do that, only thing we need now is some brain and less mysticism.

you need to accuse and judge someone which is not what real God does

How do you *know* that "real God" does not do this? (ignoring for the moment whether or not it is wrong for humans to do this, or whether indeed religion demands they do this)

Is it because you think that it is evil to do this? Or for some other reason?

Cheers.

[edit on 2-5-2007 by d60944]