Feds Raid Alabama Militia Group, Uncover Small Weapons Arsenal

Originally posted by TheBorg
So, lets say we do this, and we make all of the valid point and counterpoints, and them come to a conclusion, all in time for them to tell us no. What do we do then? What happens when all of the peaceful protests no longer work because the bureaucrats have decided that we no longer have any way to stop them from doing what they want? What choices are left to us to remedy the situation?

Contrary to some opinions, resistence is not futile. Yes, there will come a point when we must cache our guns and begin to think unpleasant thoughts. Until that moment arrives, we have a social responbility to act as rationally as we can. it must be made clear to future generations that we are not the irresponsible fools that gun control advocates make us out to be. We need to understand that everything we post on the internet, write in blogs, publish in books, or scribble in our diaries, will one day be sought out by people who want to know what really motivated us.

Acting with responsiblity and dignity in the here and the now doesn't prevent us from buying guns and stashing supplies for an event that we all sincerley hope will never happen. Let's not forget that we actually want to be wrong about this. If things go that far, which they appear to be doing, we will be called on to act wit the same prudence to fightback as the escalations require, but only as they require.

Until the option is denied to us, we can still buy, sell, and trade guns "off the books" as private individuals. In the near future, this will become more and more necessary if we intend to preserve our options in the face of increasing Federal hostility. It's not what we want to do, but it is what we will be forced to. You'll have plenty of opportunities to do the more militant stuff as time goes on. They WILL force us to that. Even so, we need to demonstrate that we can be good citizens...no matter what. Good citizenship does not mean being passive. Some times, it means being polite. Other times, it means taking steps to preserve options that you hope you will never need.

Isn't it getting too far already? Seriously. First the election was stolen TWICE. Both parties are bought by the same crew at every elections. Election devices are electronic, subject to MAJOR fraud. Illegal war going on costing lives. Illegal wiretapping. Torture. Borders wide open. 9/11 was an inside job. CPS grabbing kids to abuse them. Militarized police. No more posse comitatus. Most of the constitution doesn't exist anymore. The economy is on the verge to blow up. North American Union is building and destroying the national sovergnity. FEMA camps. 3 trillions missing from the pentagon. Nationals parcs being given to the UN. Chemicals in the water. Mercury in vaccines. Halliburton, a major contractor for the US army is kidnapping humans all over the planet for slavery and sex. Free-speech zones. The IRS is a scam. American people treated like cattle when illegal immigrants are above the law(mostly in the south and west). Chemtrails. Propaganda. Abu Graihb. OKC bombings. Columbine.... the list goes on.

Well, back then, if the government would have done only ONE of those things, they would have been hanged in public. Seriously, this country need a BIG CHANGE right now or soon because if not it will become a third world nation with a dictatorship.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by Vitchilo]

Well it seems that the this militia group has been tagged enemies of the government, so that will be another charge against their list of terrorist related charges.

I wonder, for what I can see, almost anything right now can be deemed enemies of the government if for being against the government.

Will that apply also to citizens militias trying to get rid of a corrupted government?

How can our constitutional rights to form militias will be protected if our elected government tag them all for example, terrorist and enemies of the government.

I wonder.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Halliburton, a major contractor for the US army is kidnapping humans all over the planet for slavery and sex.

Can you show a refrence for that statment above?

Can you show a refrence for that statment above?

Here it is, it's not precisely Halliburton, but one of their affiliate, DynCorp.

First, there's the Chicago Tribune , then there's The Guardian , then a great article by prisonplanet , then rawstory, a congresswoman asking Rumsfeld about it and all that is just the tip of the iceberg because the UN is also involved in the same things.

Anything worth doing ihs hard. A lot of things are messed up in America just now, and its hard to see what the proper course of action should be. I hate to break this to you guys, but it really can get worse. It will get worse before it breaks, and it will have to break before we can make it better. Let's go to school for just a moment, and I'll show you what I mean.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Isn't it getting too far already? Seriously. First the election was stolen TWICE. Both parties are bought by the same crew at every elections. Election devices are electronic, subject to MAJOR fraud. Illegal war going on costing lives. Illegal wiretapping. Torture. Borders wide open. 9/11 was an inside job. CPS grabbing kids to abuse them. Militarized police. No more posse comitatus. Most of the constitution doesn't exist anymore.

Everything you mention in this laundry list is quite true, but...we've only seen the "start" of these abuses. All of these abusive 'movements' are in their early stages of development.

a. 1790-1960 witnessed a higher degree of election fraud in America than what we now face. When you ar ready to be freaked, google Tammany Hall take a look at just how bad things can get. We'll see that level of corruption, and worse, before the system breaks.

b. 1933-1945 witnessed the creation of Nazi German's Gestapo, which was later copied by the Soviets and all other totalarian regimes since them. When you're ready for a lesson in what real torture will one day look like in this country, google "gestaop, department A."

c. The open border problem is a contemporary matter which needs no googling. Can it get worse? You bet.

d. Suspension of Habeus Corpus, combined with the rather bleak future of the posse commitatus makes it quite clear that authoratarianism in America can and will get much worse before the Constitution really is "mostly" gone.

When the Constitution is mostly gone, it wil be illegal for you and I have to have this conversation. They'll know if we did talk about this because it will be legal for them to know whatever they want, whenever they want. I would most likely disappear or end up behind wire before you would. Many of the people you know personally would end up that way before you would. It can always get worse.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
The economy is on the verge to blow up. North American Union is building and destroying the national sovergnity. FEMA camps. 3 trillions missing from the pentagon. Nationals parcs being given to the UN. Chemicals in the water. Mercury in vaccines. Halliburton, a major contractor for the US army is kidnapping humans all over the planet for slavery and sex. Free-speech zones. The IRS is a scam. American people treated like cattle when illegal immigrants are above the law(mostly in the south and west). Chemtrails. Propaganda. Abu Graihb. OKC bombings. Columbine.... the list goes on.

Yes, the list goes on and...it'll get much longer. It'll have to before the system breaks--allowing those of us who survive to fix it. Ask anyone who lived behind the Iron Curtain, and they'll tell you just how much worse it can get. Is that in our future? Yes. That's why we need to understand our place in all this. HOW we resist is just as important as the fact THAT we resist.

There will be a movement to erase what we've said, and what we've done, but they won't be able to get it all. Oral histories will be passed on. Books will go underground. CD Roms of old internet "stuff" will be copied millions of times and passed around...quietly. Long before they start digging for our guns, they'll come for our ideas. We can gripe all we want, but we need to be aware that NOW is our chance to make the arguments and say the things that will plant the seeds which will grow the idea that will one day bring all this to a stop.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Well, back then, if the government would have done only ONE of those things, they would have been hanged in public. Seriously, this country need a BIG CHANGE right now or soon because if not it will become a third world nation with a dictatorship.

We did know about Tammany Hall, and it got fixed after it came crashing down. Vigilantes who used to hang people from trees eventually went too far. The American people aren't stupid. They've known for a very long time what their government has been up to. Yes, they are willing to put up with a lot, but then again...so has every population throughout history. If you are fortunate, you'll live long enough to see this corruption break the system...and then...you will get to put your money where your mouth is. Will you REALLY be one of the reformers, or will you be just another of history's vultures who takes what they can while they can? The cold truth is most are vultures and few actually turn out to be reformers. If you want to be a reformer...start now by saying and doing things that the people of the future can relate to.

Originally posted by marg6043
Well it seems that the this militia group has been tagged enemies of the government, so that will be another charge against their list of terrorist related charges.

It's true that the Alabama militia we've all read about was out of line. Even if they did NOT actually mean us any hard, its not time yet to start building certain kinds of weapons. If we try to do that sort of thing before it becomes necessary, we end up playing right in to the hands of the people who want to do a way with militias altogether.

Originally posted by marg6043
I wonder, for what I can see, almost anything right now can be deemed enemies of the government if for being against the government.

You're talking about a "symptom" that we've been living with for decades. It's only going to get worse. Back in the days of the Soviet Union, you could be an enemy of the State for having the wrong conversation with the wrong person. Posesion of certain banned items, even if by accident, was enough to get you a train ride to Siberia. We've got to learn how to think past our fear. A lot of you guys dabble in this conspiracy stuff because you think its cool. Well, it's got certain applications that you need to be aware of so that you can harness them.

Originally posted by marg6043
Will that apply also to citizens militias trying to get rid of a corrupted government?

As things get worse, it will. Think about THAT when you are tempted to believe that "it can't get any worse than this."

Originally posted by marg6043
How can our constitutional rights to form militias will be protected if our elected government tag them all for example, terrorist and enemies of the government.

There will eventually come a point when you...or your future generations...will have to decide if "now" is the right time "to do the right thing." Even if you don't live to see it (for whatever reason), you stillh ave a chance to say and do NOW while you can still be heard by your kids, and your grand kids...and so on.

a. 1790-1960 witnessed a higher degree of election fraud in America than what we now face. When you ar ready to be freaked, google Tammany Hall take a look at just how bad things can get. We'll see that level of corruption, and worse, before the system breaks.

Thanks about that, I heard about it but now i'm aware of all the details. But since the FED is there BOTH parties are paid and there's electronic voting... so it's worse.

b. 1933-1945 witnessed the creation of Nazi German's Gestapo, which was later copied by the Soviets and all other totalarian regimes since them. When you're ready for a lesson in what real torture will one day look like in this country, google "gestaop, department A."

More like the present CIA doing all the dirty job, helped by FBI and NSA, but I agree that the gestapo and the SS were worse. The Gestapo is like the FBI/NSA... SS like CIA.

c. The open border problem is a contemporary matter which needs no googling. Can it get worse? You bet.

Worse than that? I doubt it. Borders can't be more open, aside from making illegal patrolling borders for minutemens like they want to do... Illegal aliens are already above the law...

d. Suspension of Habeus Corpus, combined with the rather bleak future of the posse commitatus makes it quite clear that authoratarianism in America can and will get much worse before the Constitution really is "mostly" gone.

... The constitution is quite gone... but not totally... thanks to the second amendment now under heavy bombardment.

Free speech may be restricted thursday on the pretence of hate-speech law... I hope it isn't allowed. Free speech is free speech. If I'm a homosexual and you want to say that i'm against god... you can, it's free speech. Political correctness have gone too far already.

Hell is paved with good intentions... Remember this. The government is using your good feelings to manipulate you and destroy your freedoms.

Well Justin you're giving me hope, somehow. Thanks.

[edit on 1-5-2007 by Vitchilo]

That's my job. It's what I do.

All of you can see what's coming. Now, you've got to decide what you will do with that knowledge. Will you construct meaningful arguments against the increases in Federal power, or will you just whine? Will you raise your kidsto know better, or will you just give up? Will you...create better groups to fight this menace, or will you accept what's coming with an "I don't care" attitude?

Any social group that argues against increasing Federal authority today can be tomorrow's resistors. "They" know this, and so should you. There will be a time and a place to transform your efforts from words to deeds. Some day, you and your social group will have to sit down to have that off the books meeting. "Maybe its time to start putting some things away." Some groups will hide guns. Others will hide diapers, typewriters, or other things that don't mean anything to YOU. Resistance, if and only if it becomes necessary...will take on many forms.

Remember this as you rememeber that we will also have terror groups on our soil. A tyrranical government will prefer to capture you in the same net that they bag the terrorists with. If you make it easy for them to lump you in with the terrorists...they will.

If you make it easy for them to lump you in with the terrorists...they will.

Like I do mostly on this website arguing against the government? Anyway, they don't need anything to put anyone in jail, they just have to grab you, claim you're a terrorist and that's it, example: guys in Guantanamo or they frame you like the toronto ``terrorists`` that were released quietly after the trial, because they had a trial.

Everyone, watch the congress thursday for the hate-speech bill, if it passes, it will put restrictions on free speech. Another important thing for free speech and free press is the internet radio that may closes on May 15 because of RIAA.

And for the immigration, yes it could be worse, if the mafia group ``La Raza`` with 40k to 60k armed-to-the-teeth members only in LA do what they swear they will do soon, kill all whites, asians and blacks to reclaim the west and the south to get their Aztlan. Yet, they do those threats on radio and in protests and Alberto Gonzalez go do a speech to them and they get funded by rich white US people... I guess they'll need them when they'll want to instaure martial law...then people are affraid of Al-CIAda... Give me a break.

What could be great is that the establishment would do a major error and people would start angry mobs everywhere not stopping until the kings are hanged...

[edit on 1-5-2007 by Vitchilo]

Justin:

While I agree with you that this is not the right time to be thinking about violent action, it IS the time to be thinking about action. There must be something we can do to prevent the events that we all see coming. Also, while I know that the T&Cs prevent organizations of any kind from organizing anything here (to prevent legal issues with regards to any movements), this discussion necessitates the very question, what do we do about it now? As the old sayings go, "Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words." While both of these are true, it doesn't help us any in this case, because we're still wondering just WHAT it is that we are supposed to do about it. We've been pacified by a tyrannical regime with the sole intent on world dominance. All we seem able to do is talk about it, while wishing that someone would take up the cause to some end. When will that person step forward?

How do I entice change when the majority are too uneducated to understand? How do I educate when those at the top keep me so busy that I have no time to do anything but worry about my own financial problems? How do I fix my own financial problems when those at the top don't allow my employers to pay me enough to make a living on? Only after we all realize that we're stuck in this position here do we, as a group, have the ability to see just how bad off it really is. So, again I ask you Justin, what do we DO about it?

"It takes but one man to change the world for the better, but it takes ALL men to ensure that it stays that way." - TheBorg

TheBorg

Well... we did just get done watching a bunch of protesters of immigration reform, didn't we?

How about we protest for our civil rights, the end the SPP, etc. etc.?

Its now public knowledge that members of MI5, and MI6 were actually the leaders of the IRA during the 70's and 80's.

Believe me, the US government forms these groups all the time JUST so they can attract anyone like minded and send them to prison. It is standard hegelian dialectic techniques - the process of creating ones own opposition in order to appear as the savior to a problem you created in the first place.

Here are links confirming that the British government RAN the IRA
sluggerotoole.com...
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...

MI5 is busy fighting tooth and nail trying to get back their own documents so they can shred them.

The problem is the 'enabling and empowering' of a ever more powerful state, a collectivist agenda. If you want to learn how to dilute and reimpower the individual and not the state you need to understand Delphi Technique, the Diamond Point method, and the Hegelian Dialectic as it is used firstly in local town meetings and eventually in the national levels.

Please have a look at www.freedom-force.org

Originally posted by Infoholic
Well... we did just get done watching a bunch of protesters of immigration reform, didn't we?

How about we protest for our civil rights, the end the SPP, etc. etc.?

Exactly, you are so right, I was just amazed how illegals can just take to the streets in my country and protest about their rights but legal Americans will not even do that.

It just pathetic what we have become in this nation.

Confiscation of Registered Guns Begins in Illinois

The Chicago Police Department and the Illinois State Police have teamed up to make good on Mayor Daley's pledge that, if it were up to him, nobody would have a gun. Daley and his elite "CAGE" unit are apparently taking advantage of gun privacy loopholes to pinpoint certain individuals for inclusion in the confiscation program.

Is that real? On which scale are they doing that sort of stuff? All around the country or only in Illinois? This is just sick.

And so it begins.....

[pun]I'll gladly hand over my weapons.... ammo first.[/pun]

Seriously, I wouldn't give up my weapons. Period.

That's a bunch of bull pucky. Is anyone in Illinois fighting this?

My wife and I were thinking of moving to Illinois, to where she grew up. After seeing this... I'm not so sure.

Originally posted by TheBorg
While I agree with you that this is not the right time to be thinking about violent action, it IS the time to be thinking about action. There must be something we can do to prevent the events that we all see coming.

You've got more "action" options than you might think. Don't confuse your desire to take physical action with your civic duty.

1. As much as we kick this around here on ATS, the fact remains that we are a very small minority. As a total percentage of the U.S. population, we represent less than six percent. We can win more hearts and minds if more of us talk about this stuff. This would be action point #1.

2. The cold hard truth of the thing is that most of us who talk about this stuff don't take political action. We do NOT. If more of us mounted letter-writing campaigns to influence our elected leaders, we might be heard. We need to make a big deal out of it each time we are heard. This would be action point #2.

Tactical point: If you posted on your own off-ATS blog the text of letters that YOU got from your elected officials regarding a subject that you care about...you'd be surprised what happens.

a. Write a letter to your Senators and Representatives. Say whatever you want about your favorite issue.

b. Post their reply on your blog. If they are with you, give 'em kudos. If they sling b.s. or prove that they are not with you, rake 'em over the coals. Bring their official position in to the light of day so that they are accountable for it.

If you did these things by yourself, it might not matter. If ten thousand of you did this...it would matter. This is just one of many options that most of you have not bothered to exploit...yet.

Originally posted by TheBorg
Also, while I know that the T&Cs prevent organizations of any kind from organizing anything here (to prevent legal issues with regards to any movements), this discussion necessitates the very question, what do we do about it now?.

Act-ually....if you'll permit me to scare you for just a moment with a small show of my dark political powers...I'd like to point out just one little thing. As you do your civic duty, you will be "recruiting." It's not obvious, and "they" would rather keep it that way. As you write your letters, make your public speeches, publish your books, post your blogs, and shoot the breeze with people whom you meet along the way...you are networking.

All of these social networks you create or interface with have the po-tential to become...other things. Why? Because Ideas carry with them more than just information. They transmitt the power of "intent." Some day, one of you might see the need to form a...group...that might...perform some sort of action that isn't liked by the powers-that-be. Remember that not all resist comes from the barrel of a gun. Your group might see the need to stash guns, sell cookies, write books, or send cellphone camera videos of police abuses to the media.

Before you can be involved in anything, you have to know enough people who see things your way to make that "thing" happen. Many of you flirt with the cool conspiracy talk, but you don't stop to think about all the work that has to happen before before you can run it, or report for duty. In this case, there is a LOT of non-violent civic stuff that has to happen before you can ever think about headin' for the hills. Don't be so earger for that. Be civil...while you still can.

Originally posted by TheBorg
As the old sayings go, "Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words." While both of these are true, it doesn't help us any in this case, because we're still wondering just WHAT it is that we are supposed to do about it. We've been pacified by a tyrannical regime with the sole intent on world dominance. All we seem able to do is talk about it, while wishing that someone would take up the cause to some end. When will that person step forward?

The people who need to step forward are here, right now. Don't confuse your political frustration for the physical impulse to act. Old age and expeirence wins out over youth and skill every time. Why? Because the young are so impatient. that's how the Old Guys beat you. They frustrate you in to saying, "I don't care anymore."

The people who step forward today are obliged to speak, write, and use their legal and political options to the best of their ability. Conspirators of all stripes know they can succeed when YOU insist on an all-or-nothing quick fix. The use secrecy to baffle you. They use bureaucracy to frustrate you. They don't have to stop everyone. They just have to stop...you.

When you network, and win people over to your point of view, "they" have a much bigger problem on their hands. As you read this, the network you want doesn't exist. You'll have ot build it. This is true for any cause you want to name. Example: it has taken decades for the many scattered Environmental groups to find and know each other. Now, they are familiar with each other and capable of forming a powerful lobby that does get its way.

Originally posted by TheBorg
How do I entice change when the majority are too uneducated to understand? How do I educate when those at the top keep me so busy that I have no time to do anything but worry about my own financial problems? How do I fix my own financial problems when those at the top don't allow my employers to pay me enough to make a living on? Only after we all realize that we're stuck in this position here do we, as a group, have the ability to see just how bad off it really is. So, again I ask you Justin, what do we DO about it?

As you reach for that keyboard, you are taking the earliest steps to "do something about it" right now. They are small and painful. You want more, and you want it now. That's understandable. If you really really really want this, you'll have to be one of those people you want so much. Somebody to step forward and "do" what comes next, even if that's the boring stuff like writing letters, books, and blogs.

I'm trying to be one of those people. I labored in obscurity for a long (long) time bofore anyone recognized or cared about what I said. I have known other people who tried to do the same thing. They gave up for many of the same reasons you have outlined here. "It's just too hard."

It is hard, and "they" don't want you to forget that.

[edit on 2-5-2007 by Justin Oldham]

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
It is hard, and "they" don't want you to forget that.

[edit on 2-5-2007 by Justin Oldham]

Oh, I'll never forget it. They, however, have forgotten who it was that founded this nation which they find themselves so prominantly poised on top of. To quote a man that really understood the foundation of this country, and what it truly meant to be an American, Thomas Jefferson:

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves in all cases to which they think themselves competent (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved), or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:45

Everyone asks what we should do when it becomes apparent that the government that we elect no longer functions with our best interests in mind. Maybe Jefferson explained this 230 years ago:

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?" --Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787. ME 6:372

He also gave clarification on what is and is not considered sedition/treason:

"Most codes extend their definitions of treason to acts not really against one's country. They do not distinguish between acts against the government, and acts against the oppressions of the government. The latter are virtues, yet have furnished more victims to the executioner than the former, because real treasons are rare; oppressions frequent. The unsuccessful strugglers against tyranny have been the chief martyrs of treason laws in all countries." --Thomas Jefferson: Report on Spanish Convention, 1792.

And as a parting warning to those that would succeed him in office, he said the following:

"I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms are in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people, which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is medicine necessary for the sound health of government." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:65

Now, do I hold fast that we're to this point yet? No, but I DO believe that we have to stand up and start complaining about what we feel is unjust, if for no other reason than to make them aware of the fact that we're not stupid, and that we in fact DO know what's going on. We know they're corrupt, and they should know that it won't last forever. It's just a matter of time.

All quotes taken from etext.virginia.edu....

TheBorg

P.S. One more statement. I know this may sound odd, but we should now recognize Jefferson for what a brilliant man he really was. He and the other founders were so far ahead of their time that they could foresee the inevitable problems that this fledging government that they formed would face. And they calculated into the founding documents what should be done, what was right for the citizenry to do, and what the government should do in response to said criticisms. This was a complete stroke of genius.

For this and this alone, they deserve at least a moment of every citizen's time here and now.....

Thank you, Thomas.

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by Infoholic
Well... we did just get done watching a bunch of protesters of immigration reform, didn't we?

How about we protest for our civil rights, the end the SPP, etc. etc.?

Exactly, you are so right, I was just amazed how illegals can just take to the streets in my country and protest about their rights but legal Americans will not even do that.

It just pathetic what we have become in this nation.

Well, not everyone is pathetic...If you want to see some of the actions being taken right now, just check out here. Of course, the news in that particular thread originates from here. The link thread only describes one example of the government getting the Constitution thrown into their faces...There are more actions from just this one group & many other groups out there doing much the same thing.

As TheBorg asked, "What can we do?" Well, we here at ATS can'y do anything but discuss the situations...This is to cover the Three Amiogos' butts when it comes to any possible legal altercations. But in order to take action, you have to look somewhere else to get involved. In short, if you actually want to get involved, you first have to get looking...Just remember that anything you do should also be "in pursuance of" the Constitution, or it'll be that much harder to restore it!

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
1. As much as we kick this around here on ATS, the fact remains that we are a very small minority. As a total percentage of the U.S. population, we represent less than six percent. We can win more hearts and minds if more of us talk about this stuff. This would be action point #1.

This is one of the primary agendas at WTP...Educating the People about what's really going on. By using the "V for Vengeance" symbology during their march on D.C., they've attracted public attention through the media. Considering how much influence that the government applies on the media though, it's still an uphill battle.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
2. The cold hard truth of the thing is that most of us who talk about this stuff don't take political action. We do NOT. If more of us mounted letter-writing campaigns to influence our elected leaders, we might be heard. We need to make a big deal out of it each time we are heard. This would be action point #2.

Letter-writing is merely the first step...Once you can find people in numbers, you can start actual Petitions for Redress of Grievances. BTW...There's seven ( 7 ) such petitions in process at WTP & you could probably find many more groups petitioning right now, just by looking around. Caution: Make sure you fully understand what you decide to do, both in taking precautions & gauging probable repercussions.

Originally posted by TheBorg
He also gave clarification on what is and is not considered sedition/treason:

"Most codes extend their definitions of treason to acts not really against one's country. They do not distinguish between acts against the government, and acts against the oppressions of the government. The latter are virtues, yet have furnished more victims to the executioner than the former, because real treasons are rare; oppressions frequent. The unsuccessful strugglers against tyranny have been the chief martyrs of treason laws in all countries." --Thomas Jefferson: Report on Spanish Convention, 1792.

This is even backed up by a little bit of Constitutional writ:
Article 3, Section 3:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

Does anybody see any kind of description that would include "government organization" within the Constitutional definition of Treason? I didn't think so...

However, by not "faithfully executing" the Immigration Laws, the Executive Branch of the government left us open to invasion (a "civil invasion," but still an invasion nevertheless).
By trying to sneak the formation of the North American Union past us & forcing it upon us, the government has declared their intention of eliminating the United States as a sovereign nation: One of the major effiects is that the NAU will be government by mutual treaty...The Constitution is eliminated altogether!
When the Judicial Branch grants "sovereign immunity" to the government unless Congress actually legislates otherwise on a case-by-case basis, that becames an act of "legislation" issued by the Judiciary!
By merely performing a vote on the Patriot Act without even reading it first, Congress itself has Breeched their Oath: (First Amendment) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
By enacting the Patriot Act (including the Victory Act & other supportive actions along with it), the government has fallen just short of an official declaration of war upon the Citizens of the USA!
Seems to me like all of these actions could reasonably fall within the Constitutional definition of Treason...And these are only the barest few of the long list of crimes that the government has commited against the Nation & its People.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Be civil...while you still can.

After all, how can civilization survive if we can't remain "civilized?"

Originally posted by TheBorg
P.S. One more statement. I know this may sound odd, but we should now recognize Jefferson for what a brilliant man he really was. He and the other founders were so far ahead of their time that they could foresee the inevitable problems that this fledging government that they formed would face. And they calculated into the founding documents what should be done, what was right for the citizenry to do, and what the government should do in response to said criticisms. This was a complete stroke of genius.

For this and this alone, they deserve at least a moment of every citizen's time here and now.....

Thank you, Thomas.

Amen, brother!

Overall, in general, I think Justin has already answered lots of questions better than I have so far...I've been stuck in real life issues that have kept me off the 'Net for the past few days.

Let's cut through some of the metaphor. When you say that you want to "do" something, a few of you are actually talking about starting or joining civic groups that are much more engaged on the social and/or political processes.

You should.

It's true that you can't recruit here on ATS, and you can't talk about the mechanics of starting or operating these social groups, but you can join them and you can admit that you have. These groups will make you feel better. You'll be connected to people who are doing the same thing you are. As a group, you'll be able to judge the success or failure of your efforts.

Originally posted by The one?
Let me point out something reeeaaally wuick. 1.Alabama is in the deep south. 2. assuming these are all white racists could mean they are skin heads. So with those points in mind, the shear ammount of weapons, could they have been planning a genocide of African Americans?



Just my two sense on the matter

You are an idiot if you really believe this.