Handguns for CCW

felt recoil,

I noticed that same buisness of which retseh is speaking in shooting a .40 caliber handgun purchased by a friend of mine. He wanted my opinion on the gun and asked me to take it for a test ride. It was a Smith and Wesson automatic.
The recoil was noticable and much sharper than with my Colt Goverment
.45 ACP. HOwever I attribute this effect as much to the weight of the gun as it has one of those plastic lower portions. The slide and barrel are steel but the lower grip is some kind of polimer plastic reinforced with metal in strategic areas. This is a weight saving sort of design and while I understand this for those subject to long periods of carry..weight can be critical here when carrying all day, I just dont particularly care for the polimer type handguns. That is just my preference as aptly stated by several posters.
I think that this caliber if mounted to a all metal gun with the stature of the Colt Government would be much more tame on the recoil. However I believe the polimer type guns, popularized by the Glock series of firearms, are the current rage and will be with us for a long time to come.

The main reason I dont purchase a .40 caliber is that I am not intrested in retooling and restocking another caliber of ammunition after investing heavily in .38/357 and .45 ACP ammunition and tools to reload the same.
Once again..preference.

Now since we are tending to get a bit off topic of concealed carry for CCW with the topic of felt recoil..I though I would contribute to this off topic tendency with this line of reasoning. I think most of you will immediately understand the concept of overkill on felt recoil. I am not a particular fan of felt recoil and have learned through this misadventure that controlled diciplined aim is much better than raw brute power....most of the time.

I can assure you gentlemen that though there is plenty of two legged wildlife around here I have no ambition to hunt wild big game of the African or Alaskan varietys where raw brute power is the order of the day in such tools.

Try this out for felt recoil ..for those of you who are gluttons for this kind of punnishment.

This is my Thompson Contender single shot pistol in .35 Remington Caliber. It fires a 200 grain factory bullet though I often reload this with .357 diameter pistol bullets of lighter weight . 158 grain jacketed hollow points.




This pistol is chambered in a rifle caliber and since I own the rifle in my naivety I decided to order the pistol barrel for this handgun. I have a barrel for it in .223 caliber which is entirely managable and reasonable in the recoil. However ,with this purchase in the photo, I learned quickly that I had bitten off more than I could reasonably chew. When shooting this handgun without a glove it tends to jam my wrist bone into the nerve and hence dull or numb my feeling in my right hand. It is more managable with a glove as padding.
Obviously I dont shoot this caliber much anymore but I appreciate the lessons learned about power and felt recoil. As with many of us ..too soon olde and to late smart.
This is ,however ,a beautiful gun and pleasing to the eye with the relief of the Cougar coming down the mountainside on the side pannels. I seldom treat myself to a firearm for looks alone but rather practicality and usefulness. This is my one venture outside of the standard practicalty dicipline to which I usually adhere. As I said..lessons learned.

But for those of you who like to speak of felt recoil..here it is. Bon Appetit.

OH ..by the way..this is the other reason I have no intrest in the .44 Magnum caliber handguns. Lessons learned!!

THanks again to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

As was mentioned earlier, the recoil of a round cannot be compared unless you are talking the same line of guns. For instance, my glock in 9mm is extremely snappy, my friends Ruger in .45 is very smooth, and my friends Beretta 92 in 9mm is like shooting my Walther P22 in .22LR.

Nice pic orange but, if that is your CCW, you must be built like the Jolly Green Giant!

Back on topic. Of course thexsword, you could go in the other direction and, if your State legislation permits, you could go for the H&K MP5K. I think I'm right in saying you can get 10 & 15 round mags and there is definately a CCW rig.

I have used the MP5K and although it is a little brutish on full auto, it is superb when firing in 2 or 3 round bursts.

AND, it is accurate up to 200 yards, but I would suggest if you go along this route, you acquire sub-sonic rounds for home defence.

Link: remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/pdw/pdw.htm

This is one thing I know much about. I would love to carry a 5 inch 1911 around on a thick pretty belt and a sharkskin holster....lol....but that aint going to work. Heavy and too hard to match a belt to flip flops and pool shorts when I am being lazy on a Sat. Glock 26 same problem...as with the Glock 19 23 27 32 33 and on and on. So next is the revolver.....Ahh nich and light..BUT too slow to reload......Seecamp.....too tiny....32 0r .380 wont even think about the 25..........So how about a Betetta 21A ...Hmmmm the Mossad love the little thing.......And you know what I have carried one all summer for 3 summers. Sig P226 in my truck, and a P226 on the nightstand. In the winter I carry a Glock 30. Just my 2 cents....


Ps fritz......i am sitting here with a K gun and it uses a 15 or 30 round mag. That or a beta 100rnd. Mine has a PDW stock Navy lower....If you can hit anything with a K gun but a hill at 200yrds I would be shocked. SUBSONIC is great if it is a PDW with a threaded barrel.....AND A SUPPRESSOR....What good is subsonic going to do him without a can...Depending on his state he prob can get a K gun but is going to shell out 12-20K for a pre 86. Hell why not a MICRO UZI... at 200yrds too.

[edit on 14-7-2007 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]

I find the nest way to carry is IWB (inside the waistband) with a good quality hoster $100 usd price range I think most will find that it is much more stable, or course plan to add 2 inched to wour waist size when your buying pants.

Some will balk at the cost of a holster but as with the gun what is your life worth.

Ps fritz......i am sitting here with a K gun and it uses a 15 or 30 round mag.

Well txmachinegundlr, I can assure you that British police use 10 and 15 round mags. Whether or not that are available commercially, I cannot say.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
OK, for a start the .45ACP is a good penetrator

Ok so you changed your mind.

but 9mm at +P velocities beats it in the majority of tests that I've reviewed and is still very managable by the average shooter. Indeed the "over penetration" of the 9mm is one of the main arguments voiced against the round.

9mm +P what? FMJ or JHP, be specific, and when you quote tests, link them.

The "carry often, shoot little" remark does not mean that you don't practice with it. It means that it spends a lot of time on the belt compared to the hand.

So "shoot little" actually means "wear a lot", errr ok. I assure you that the 2 are not mutually exclusive. I carry every day, and shoot that gun every week - it doesn't seem like too much strain. Basic point remains the same, if you carry it a lot, shoot it a lot - no excuses.

Please take some time to consider the context of what you're reading rather than try to start an argument against it.

Firstly, when people DISAGREE with you, it doesn't mean you're having an ARGUMENT. Some of what you post is very accurate and relevant, but some of it is not. There was no context to many of your statements, you were quoting what you believe to be facts, and I don't believe them to be correct = disagreement.

You're obviously a big fan of the .45ACP. Congratulations, I hope it serves you well.

You assume incorrectly, read my post again, I recommend that the shooter gets himself a 9mm, and indeed I prefer 9mm myself. However, with the advent of the Glock 21SF and the Springfield XD45 (of which I own one), I do confess that .45ACP has a new place in my affections, as you can now get the double stack capacity of a 9mm with a frame size that actually fits smaller hands.

I can't help but get the impression that you don't have access to a wide variety of calibers or the latest gun designs, some of the points you make sound like those being made in the 1980s before the advent of more modern handgun and bullet technology, strange.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
felt recoil,

I noticed that same business of which retseh is speaking in shooting a .40 caliber handgun purchased by a friend of mine. He wanted my opinion on the gun and asked me to take it for a test ride. It was a Smith and Wesson automatic.
The recoil was notable and much sharper than with my Colt us for a long time to come.




Thanks again to all for their posts,
Orangetom

I put a heaver recoil spring in my Glock 22 and 35 and shoot a 180 gr bullet.

The Glock .40's are sprung the same as the 9mm, ain't no biggie putting in a heaver spring. Shouldn't be for any auto-load.

Roper

[edit on 15-7-2007 by Roper]

Fritz and others,

Ive been off for the last four days on holiday up in the mountains so I have not had time to check this thread.

I was far enough in the mountains that there was very spotty and unreliable cell phone service.

I took my Government Colt .45ACP as my CCW tool.
As there have been a number of bear attacks and reports of bears coming down to scrounge food I also took my SKS folder with soft point ammunition. I do not want to have to shoot any such animal as it is not a creature would be wont to eat but one never knows about such wildlife and what they would do.
I did not encounter any bears nor two legged wildlife and had a wonderful relaxing time.
The only close proximity wildlife encountered was a copperhead snake who was wont to sun himself on the concrete patio daily. I took some photos and left them alone. I figure it is their place as much as mine..if not more so.

Fritz..no that is not my CCW gun in the photo above but we seemed to be getting a bit off topic so I thought I would put in my $.02.
I had a telescopic sight on that pistol Fritz but one day I found it fogged up. It appears the recoil was more stout than had I originally thought. They make better scopes today and eventually I will purchase another but no hurry on that. I have other projects which presently require more of my time and moneys.

As for myself, I am not a big fan of the 9mm but if one is good with it no doubt one should carry it for ones CCW sidearm. Better something one is good with than something one is not. It is as also apty stated by others ..preference.
Also for reasons aptly stated the .45ACP and others..ie...10MM do not suit everyone.

Roper,

I had not considered changing the recoil springs in my .45ACP. Most of my shooting has been done with 230 grain hardballs or JHP. I have never tried the 185 grain ammunition. One day I will have to try it and see how the pistol functions.

Thanks to all for their posts.
Orangetom

I was far enough in the mountains that there was very spotty and unreliable cell phone service.

In fear of getting another warning, I'll still ask - why were you up a mountain hunting very spotty and unreliable cell phone services?

Killing poor defenceless Grizzlies not enough for you, eh?

BOT:

I do so agree about using what you are comfortable with. As Paddy said several replies ago, choose what feels good to you and practice as much as you can.

I was brought up on the Browning 9 milly and, even now, I'd probably choose that over modern pistols like the Glock or SiG simply because I know it inside out.

The only exception I would make, would be to get some car mags for it, that is if you can.

How about it Paddy or Saint? Can you still get 20 round car mags for a Browning?

Fritz,

I was not in the mountains hunting spotty and unreliable cell phone service. The woman and her grandchild who accompanied me were doing so. Though I brought my cell phone I was more wont to use my ham radio up there with that elevation. Dont get me wrong here Fritz, cell phones are very nice and convenient but I so tire of them at times. I am not much of a phoneaholic as are some I know.
The next time I plan to bring my long wave radios rather than my VHF/UHF rigs.
It was quite lovely up there and a much needed break from down here in the fast food lane of the sea coast.
Ironic that I find the mountains more to my liking when I reside right here on the seacoast.

You were brought up on the Browning Hi Power??? Wow!! That is a great pistol. I dont know if they are still being made today? You seldom see one anymore with the advent of all these light polymer type pistols so common today. Alot of the olde timers at the gun club to which I belong swear by them. That many olde timers cannot be wrong. I figure they have been around the block enough times to know.
I wonder at times ....if it is more that they have a great respect for John Moses Browning. Nevertheless they sing great praises for the quality of the Browning Hi Power.

You folks will have to excuse me but CAR magazines is a term with which I am not familiar. It is an abbreviation for something. Can you clue me in here?
I have 8 round Wilson magazines in stainless steel for my Colt but have no ambition to get high capacity magazines for this gun though I have seen them in the various periodicals. For what does CAR stand??

THanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 16-7-2007 by orangetom1999]

Just a nice snubby is what you need.

FN still makes the Hi power.

you can look through most anything made at this website

Gallery of Guns

The pretty much have all manufacturers there exept custom makers.

Originally posted by Retseh

Originally posted by PaddyInf
OK, for a start the .45ACP is a good penetrator

Ok so you changed your mind.

I didn't change my mind. My origional post stated that it was a poorer penetrator, not simply poor. There is a world of difference.

but 9mm at +P velocities beats it in the majority of tests that I've reviewed and is still very managable by the average shooter. Indeed the "over penetration" of the 9mm is one of the main arguments voiced against the round.

9mm +P what? FMJ or JHP, be specific, and when you quote tests, link them.

I can't post the tests because they are government docs printed with a restricted heading and are not on the internet. The majority relate to FMJ s this is what we are allowed to use under the Hague and Geneva conventions. This is the case for civillian shooters in many countries (not all readers are from the US).

The "carry often, shoot little" remark does not mean that you don't practice with it. It means that it spends a lot of time on the belt compared to the hand.

So "shoot little" actually means "wear a lot", errr ok. I assure you that the 2 are not mutually exclusive. I carry every day, and shoot that gun every week - it doesn't seem like too much strain. Basic point remains the same, if you carry it a lot, shoot it a lot - no excuses.

You still miss the point, so I'll put it in bold Carrying a pistol concealed means that it is carried for many hours per day and is subject yo alot of wear and tear. No where on any post have I suggested that you don't practice with a weapon. I merely state that it is carried more than it is shot.

Please take some time to consider the context of what you're reading rather than try to start an argument against it.

Firstly, when people DISAGREE with you, it doesn't mean you're having an ARGUMENT. Some of what you post is very accurate and relevant, but some of it is not. There was no context to many of your statements, you were quoting what you believe to be facts, and I don't believe them to be correct = disagreement.

Ok, fair one. I stand corrected and apologise for my tone.

You're obviously a big fan of the .45ACP. Congratulations, I hope it serves you well.

You assume incorrectly, read my post again, I recommend that the shooter gets himself a 9mm, and indeed I prefer 9mm myself.

Again my mistake.

I can't help but get the impression that you don't have access to a wide variety of calibers or the latest gun designs, some of the points you make sound like those being made in the 1980s before the advent of more modern handgun and bullet technology, strange.

The majority of my personal experience is with the Browning P35, Walther P5C, Sig P226 and P229, all in 9mm. They were carried in uniform or concealed in conventional warfare, Personal protection or Internal security roles. The P5C lived on my belt for abour 12 years. Unfortunately in the UK military and security forces we are restricted in the weapon and ammunition choices. I do have access to government weapon and ammunition test results though, as well s several friends in the US police and military, and they tend to concur with what I say.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I apologise for my tone in some of my posts - Too many years as a NCO does that after a while!

A free tip of the day: (Not paid by a random czech arms manufacturer)
Those of you who are used to the High-Power i suggest taking a long hard look at CZ-75 and it derivatives (Like SP-01 variant), they are closely related to Brownings, but at least for me they fix some of the annoyng issues of the original, like magzine safety. And there is the cz-97 variant in .45ACP available...

I personally carry a Kel-Tec P3AT .380 with an ArmaLaser. But I plan on and would recommend getting either a Kahr CW9, CW40, P9, P40, or even a TP9 or TP40. I have shot both the P9 and P40, but I am leaning towards the CW9 because it is more affordable. $380 brand new at my local gun shop. Check out the reviews at GunDirectory.

Kahr
GunDirectory

[edit on 15-8-2007 by NWdude83]

[edit on 15-8-2007 by NWdude83]

[edit on 15-8-2007 by NWdude83]

Didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if you have already got your gun or not. I also don't know if someone already put this down as an option. I recently turned 21, planning on getting my CHL next month (same as the CCW, but CHL is only handgun...Texas lets you carry long guns from the day you are 16). I bought my handgun on my 21 birthday. I bought a Springfield XD 40 with a 10 and 12 round clip. I personally think it was the better buy than the others that the shop had for two words: Dual Safety! I know what you are thinking "Why two safeties?" This isn't a normal above the trigger safety. These are built on the back of the grip frame and onto the trigger itself. The way it is configured you have to hold the gun correctly so that it will fire. (correctly being in your hand) I looked at some that had no safety ($395) and could see them shooting when I draw or when I am taking it out of the holster to unload. My Springfield XD costs a bit more than the others at around $498 but I see the extra money spent as a good investment. I stand behind my Springfield 100% (otherwise I would get shot LOL)

I use a tactical thigh holster though I also have a sholder holster for nights that I actually go out on the town and a waist holster simply for a just in case type of emergency.

If you are going to use it as a tactical or home defense weapon I recommend two things: new sights and a frame mounted light and/or laser. For sights I would go with the light pins (those ones that look like they light up when you look down them at the right angle) and get the three sight design. As for a light, it is simple. Either get a frame mount or a basic push button (on teh back) flashlight. Frame mounted will run about 50 bucks if you find the right place. The flashlight could run about 20 bucks.

Anyway... don't know how much, or if, I helped any but that is what I carry. Oh... and... getting the CCW is a great idea. For one thing, its good training and for another it's a lot cheaper than not having one.

I forgot something... Remember one thing above all. Caliber means nothing if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. 9 mm and .40 is good for anyone for size... but there are hit men in them Eastern countries that do their business with a .22 pistol. If you can't shoot a larger caliber correctly just switch down. If it takes 5 shots with a .22 you are only out a 75 cents. If you have to shoot 5 rounds with a .40 you are out almost a buck and a half. Not alot? Try a few cases down the road. I did that learning curve already. Lots of practice and your hand quits shaking at the weight and your aim gets better. During practice, wear hearing protection. Sounds wimpy and yeah in real situations you wont have it, but in a real situation adrenaline blocks the gun noise. a 4 inch pistol barrel is louder than a .30-06 long barrel simply because of the distance from your ears.

Originally posted by PaddyInf
You have your opinion, I have mine. I apologise for my tone in some of my posts - Too many years as a NCO does that after a while!

No need to apologize Paddy, I have seen some caliber debates that almost reached the point of those calibers actually being used

Since I last posted I actually acquired another 9mm, one of the early SigPro SP2009 models with 4 - 15 round magazines and night sights, which somehow went unsold for several years. I'm very impressed, especially as it's my first SiG. I almost picked up the newer SP2022 in .40S&W as well, but that would have been greedy.

The price of ammo is pushing more shooters to 9mm purely based on grounds of affordability. Still a great choice.

BTW - are you still serving military?



[edit on 29-8-2007 by Retseh]

reply to post by Retseh


I am serving military. Been in for about 17 years - 5 more to go