Handguns for CCW

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posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Jasestrong2
... I am also a martial artist studying Judo and Jujitsu. I feel my skills are not good enough, I would rather go to my weapon first and then if that fails I will us my unarmed skills.

Stay safe


Let's see ...Don't use martial art unless it's a last resort. .38 and 9 milly is as viable as any larger round... Except for in the case of the Phillipines, where, I assume, the physical laws are different. As a mtter of discussion, the car was moving away, the window took a bit of a spidering, but the bullet did not go through. However, and be that as it may ...
It would appear that I have been totally refuted, and therefore, tip my king...




posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:30 PM
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Excellent stuff. The .380 randomly inserted is a good training aid. Another one I like is loading a persons magazine with a dummy round thrown in. All of a sudden they realize that they DO anticipate recoil, and it is a problem, unlike how they were arguing with me before


I actually get to FL quite a bit as my sister lives there. I will keep it in mind, FL is a great state to go shooting, and I would love to meet up with a fellow shooter there



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by sigung86

Originally posted by Jasestrong2
... I am also a martial artist studying Judo and Jujitsu. I feel my skills are not good enough, I would rather go to my weapon first and then if that fails I will us my unarmed skills.

Stay safe


Let's see ...Don't use martial art unless it's a last resort. .38 and 9 milly is as viable as any larger round... Except for in the case of the Phillipines, where, I assume, the physical laws are different. As a mtter of discussion, the car was moving away, the window took a bit of a spidering, but the bullet did not go through. However, and be that as it may ...
It would appear that I have been totally refuted, and therefore, tip my king...


I would love to have any kind of hand to hand combat as a last resort, but the problem is with how screwy the laws are in certain states, as a civilian, one must be extremely careful in determining when deadly force is used. It's a tough call, because say I am attacked by a man who is 6 foot 5 250 lbs, is it ok to use deadly force? What if I am the same size as him, is it still ok? Luckily some states favor the attacked rather than the attacker, but in many states, especially in the northeast, it seems the attacker is favored.

But like was posted before, either way, I would rather be judged by 12 than buried by 6.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 03:45 PM
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Sorry, I just had to post this.

This is my sister shooting one of my glocks, I think the 17.


This is the first time she ever shot a pistol.



I just uploaded it, give it a few to proccess.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by Tiloke]



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by TheStarMan

I would love to have any kind of hand to hand combat as a last resort, but the problem is with how screwy the laws are in certain states, as a civilian, one must be extremely careful in determining when deadly force is used. It's a tough call, because say I am attacked by a man who is 6 foot 5 250 lbs, is it ok to use deadly force? What if I am the same size as him, is it still ok? Luckily some states favor the attacked rather than the attacker, but in many states, especially in the northeast, it seems the attacker is favored.

But like was posted before, either way, I would rather be judged by 12 than buried by 6.


In the US there is the 'disparity of force' contingency with regards to lethal force. Basically this means that a subject is allowed to use any amount of force, up to and including lethal force, if the attacker is at a significantly unfair advantage. Examples may include (but are not restricted to) the following

1. A male attacking a female
2. A person trained in hand to hand combat (martial arts expert etc) against someone who is not
3. A person who is outnumberd
4. An able body person attacking a disabled individual
5. A person who is at a significant size advantage attacking someone smaller, for example a body builder attacking a much smaller person.
6. An adult attacking a child

Obviously as with all laws these are fairly broad guidelines with a lot of grey areas and it would be up to a defence lawyer to argue this case, but the gist is there. The primary goal in legal defence in a lethal situation is to prove that you felt that your life was in immediate and significant danger and your only method of defence was lethal force.

[edit on 9-7-2007 by PaddyInf]



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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Another training aid we used when working with malfunctions on a live firing line was to video tape the shooter. It shows the shooter how they react to the stress, also it shows them how to refine and make it more smooth and fluid.

It is also a good way to judge trigger control.

With most modern Automatics especially a Glock this is how we teach shooters to use the Glocks trigger to the max. Try this either dry fire or on a hot range. 1) Pull the trigger to the rear and hold it to the rear not releasing it, cycle the weapon if dry firing while still holding the trigger to the rear, same if on live fire. 2) Now that the weapon has been cycled and the trigger is still to the rear, slowly release the trigger till a click is felt or heard hold the trigger at that spot. 3) the trigger is reset and ready to be depressed again minus all the slack. 4) Pull the trigger and repeat the above. This takes a little time to master but your accuracy and speed will improve greatly. Make sure when you do this you never reset the trigger through its full range. I have taught this to many experience shooters and i have never had a complaint. This is one of the benefits of going to the Glock Armorer Course.

When dealing with a Glock I fix a few things to make it muck better. 1) get the 3.5 trigger/connector, Polish the feed ramp, get rid of the Glock sites, I like the 24/7 night sites.

I have to say I have enjoyed this thread and talking to everyone here.

Have a great Day and be safe.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 06:11 PM
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In Florida where I live the state has changed a number of laws benefiting lawful self defense. First Florida has a Great CCW permit that allows you to carry firearms and other self defense devices. The Florida CCW permit has reciprocity in 23 states. The permit is good for 5 years. Also the requirements are pretty easy, a DD214, police training, or other firearms training usually will cover it. Florida also offers out of state resident a concealed weapons permit here is a link you can order applications from this site or get more information.

licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us...

Also we have the Castle Doctrine that applies to your home, car, our place of employment. And in a nutshell if someone enters one of those locations and is not retreating you may use deadly force even if a weapon or threat is not observed. I think a number of other states have a like law.

I fully believe that an armed public will be a safe and free public.

Again this is a great thread, you all are a great bunch.

Take care and be safe.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 08:26 PM
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Here in Texas we had essentially the "castle doctrine" introduced and passed, but I think it goes into effect August 1st. Most DA's are good about self defense, but the one in Houston was a bonehead, and I think spawned it to begin with. One interesting thing was that our Governor said after the VT shooting that people with CCW should be able to carry EVERYWHERE. He said that if a bill made it to his desk, he would sign in. Thought I disagree with a lot that Perry does, tis was very positive.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 08:34 PM
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People have already mentioned the .40 caliber but I would like to mention it again. Less recoil than a .45 caliber but plenty of takedown power, especially with hollow points. I own a Keltec .40 and it's perfect for CCW. For a cheaper handgun it hasn't jammed yet, even on range reloads. Of course, a .38 is the ultimate in CCW in my opinion, which is why many officers carry that on an ankle holster as a backup weapon.



posted on Jul, 9 2007 @ 08:54 PM
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I would say a small .380 is the ultimate in concealibility, but not necessarily the ultimate CC weapon. I carry my Keltec P3AT when wearing something like a tshirt and shorts which would make concealing my G19 near impossible.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 04:34 AM
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Takedown power is a myth. The ability of a pistol round (as opposed to a rifle round) to incapacitate relies on a combination of deep penetration, permanent wound cavity and accurate shot placement. Things like expansion and fragmentation are desired but do not occur reliably enough in real life shootings to be relied on.

Realistically the only way to immediately stop an assailant is to hit them in the head or spinal column. Even with a .22LR this would probably cause immediate target neutralisation. However in real life this is rarely achievable, hence few people advocate a .22LR for self defence. What you need is a bullet that penetrates a minimum of 12 (preferably 14) inches in tissue and that causes a fair sized permanent cavity in order to maximise organ damage. Temporary cavities are over rated in pistol shootings due to the natural elasticity of human tissue which allows the body to absorb the effects of this with minimal damage.

.380ACP has been shown not to penetrate significantly enough to reliably cause significant enough organ penetration. When it does penetrate, the permanent cavity is fairly small due to the relitively small bullet diameter.

9mm is a good penetrator, and regularly punches right through a human target. Its' velocity allows it to cause a large temporary cavity, but as we have seen this is of minimal importance in pistol shootings. The high velocity tends to increase reliability of expansion which in turn increases permanent cavity, but it still does not expand reliably enough to rely on.

.45ACP is slower and heavier. In the majority of loadings it does not penetrate the stated minimum amount to guarantee significant organ damage. However it does create a large permanent cavity which increases damage to the areas that it does hit. The main argument for the .45 is its' much-vaunted takedown power. In reality the .45 only generates the same actual energy transfer as a 10lb weight being dropped onto the target from a height of 1.37 inches. This is not enough to knock a target down by any stretch of the immagination.

.40S&W is a good compromise of both. It is wider than the 9mm and therefore produces a larger permanent wound cavity. It is faster than the .45ACP while still holding on to a decent weight, so it penetrates deeper. Therefore we have both reasonable permanent cavity combined with significant penetration.

Summery
Bullets need deep penetration combined with large permanent wound cavity. Expansion and fragmentation do not occur often enough in real life to be relied upon.

.380ACP does not penetrate enough or cause a significant enough cavity to be relied on.
9mm has good penetration but smaller cavity.
.45ACP has large cavity but poorer penetration.
.40S&W has good penetration and reasonable wound cavity.

My choice therefore would be .40S&W.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 10:55 AM
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By that analysis, then wouldn't the 10mm be the best choice?



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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The best choice is what is comfortable to you.

It doesnt do any good to carry a .44 magnum if you hate the recoil and wont practice with it.

Carrying a .22lr probably wont stop an attack if you actually have to fire it,
just showing it might halt an attack though. .22lr is great for cheap practice though.

That being said having been shot before I dont want to be shot with anything in any caliber.

I carry a 1911 fullsize year round, I shoot it the best the weight of the gun keeps the recoil down and the .45 acp round is usually more than enough to stop an attacker if need be. Of course I am over 6 ft tall and over 200 pounds, my wife is 5 ft tall and wieghs about 110 she uses a glock 26 which is the most comfortable gun for her.

Once you have decided to conceal carry regularly you have to be aware that you might have to change the way you dress in order ot facilitate good concealment and you will find that you will begin to avoid places that might be less than safe such as bars and parties and such. Carrying should make you more aware and more eager to avoid trouble, if that isnt the case you probably shouldnt be carrying.

Training is important and I reccomend something beyond the typical NRA and State CCW classes.



Carry daily Apply sparingly.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheStarMan
By that analysis, then wouldn't the 10mm be the best choice?


Actually 10mm is not a bad choice, but can be a bit snappy in the recoil department. Indeed the 10mm has failed to gain popularity because of this, as well as the fact that it is a bit long, thus requiring larger grips to facilitate it. The .40S&W was designed around this cartridge, but with a shorter case length. This made the round much more manageable.

The analysis that I posted earlier was founded on the FBI research into the best choice for a self defence load.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 01:59 PM
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10MM ammunition,

I was not familiar with the 10MM caliber for along time until I got my new Hornady Reloading Manuals. THe 10MM is listed here verses my older set of manuals.

This is a more recent adaptation in cartridges. It is indeed powerful even in a heavy framed handgun like a 10MM Colt Government type frame.

This brings along another line of thought for consideration. HOw expensive is this ammunition? This would mean limited practice time at the range unless you reload. Reloading would eliminate the bulk of shooters and posters on ATS/BTS as most do not reload.

Along with the expense of this caliber ...how available is it in the stores?

I submit it would be available in most gun shops but in what quantitys and is this in fact where most of us purchase your ammunition?? I know it is not stocked in my local Wally World or hardware stores. Think about this verses the more common .38/357 or .45ACP and 9MM. Even .380 and .25 auto is stocked in the local Wally World. Of course lets not fail to mention the .22 long rifle caliber stocked just about anywhere ammunition is sold. I have just noted that 10MM is not stocked.

I believe this is a caliber used mostly by law enforcement and specially trained teams.

All the power in the world means little if you cannot acquire the ammunition or afford it.

This is the main reason I steered my firearms purchases away from the .44 magnums and .44 specials. The availability and expense of ammunition. While .44/.44 magnum is indeed powerful it is also expensive. I also reload and have steered away from this caliber for that very reason..expenses.

I am not putting down the 10MM as a powerful cartridge..but merely point out this facet for our consideration here.

A key factor in our firearms purchases is expenses and availability. I dont think this factor is given the credit it merits in many of these posts.

Can we afford it and is it readily available.

Also Paddy Inf is correct again in his post. The .40 is a good compromise as a slightly downpowered 10MM. The .40 and the 10mm load the same diameter bullet just different power levels.
I notice the .40 caliber showing up in more and more volumes as I go through the spent brass bins looking for .38/357 brass as well as .45ACP spent brass. 9MM is also in abundance here at my gun club.
Not so with 10MM nor .45GAP. You do find a bit of .380 brass in the bins.
Also found is something called 9x18MM. I believe this is chambered in these Makarov pistols verses the 9x19 parabellum so popular in most 9mm pistols.
This is a clear indicator to me of popularity and practicality through expense and availability.

Thanks to all for their posts..some great posts here on this thread.

Orangetom

[edit on 10-7-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 10-7-2007 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 10-7-2007 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:01 PM
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Recoil is a good discussion I like the .45 over the .40 because it has less percieved recoil for me the .40 seems snappier to me. I would not hesistate to use a .40 firearm for self defense I just wouldnt be as skilled with the gun and the recoil.

Ammo selection would also be key light .45 rounds with +p ratings approach 10mm statistics, I dont reccomend +p ammo because of over penetration keeping in mind you are responsible for every round that leaves your gun you dont want to hit the bad guy only to have the round fully penetrate and exit the target hitting an innocent. for this reason I think 10mm .357 and .357sig are poor choices .44magnums and above are just foolish, unless your in the wilderness and expecting bear trouble sor similar.

It is advisable to use the same hollowpoint self defense ammunition as your local police department if you can, some states dont allow the public to use hollowpoints.

Packing.org will give you a fairly accurate picture of state and local laws.



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 02:50 PM
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As far as perceived recoil, I agree, my Glock in 9mm seems much snappier than a .40SW model, and about the same as a .45, but of course this is all perception.

As far as 10mm ammo, yes, it is hard to find in local shops and such, but if you order online, it's about the same price as .45



posted on Jul, 10 2007 @ 10:43 PM
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Those who suggest that .45ACP recoil is more severe than .40S&W haven't shot much of either.

.45 is more of a push, the pressure curve is much more shallow, .40 tends to "torque" in the hand, something I have yet to experience to the same degree in other calibers, and has a much higher operating pressure. Did someone also say that .45 has poor penetration, good grief now we're just getting silly, I was going to post some JHP gel tests, but seriously, should I need to? there was also a comment aboout a CCW gun being carried a lot and shot a little, errr no, you need to shoot your CCW gun MORE than your others, think about it.

Trust me, if you still haven't made your mind up, take a look at the latest ammunition prices. The day is coming that only reloaders will be able to afford to shoot calibers other than .22LR and 9mm. 40 and 45 are already getting costly, and don't even ask about .357SiG and 10mm. The price of metals and the demand on certain calibers being made by the military at the moment is sending prices through the roof.

If you can't afford the ammo, you will not practice, if you don't practice you will not shoot well. Remember that a hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a 10mm.

Hint - get a 9mm unless you want to be paying $20 a box for practice ammo in an "exotic" caliber.

Just my 2c.



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by Retseh
Did someone also say that .45 has poor penetration, good grief now we're just getting silly, I was going to post some JHP gel tests, but seriously, should I need to? there was also a comment aboout a CCW gun being carried a lot and shot a little, errr no, you need to shoot your CCW gun MORE than your others, think about it.


OK, for a start the .45ACP is a good penetrator, but 9mm at +P velocities beats it in the majority of tests that I've reviewed and is still very managable by the average shooter. Indeed the "over penetration" of the 9mm is one of the main arguments voiced against the round.

The "carry often, shoot little" remark does not mean that you don't practice with it. It means that it spends a lot of time on the belt compared to the hand. The remark was aimed at the amount of wear the weapon gets due to sweat, holster wear etc, not how much you use it. Of course you shoot the weapon as much as you can in practice, but you don't fire it a lot against live targets. When I was carrying full time the pistol spent between 10 and 16 hours a day on my belt. Please take some time to consider the context of what you're reading rather than try to start an argument against it.

You're obviously a big fan of the .45ACP. Congratulations, I hope it serves you well. All I did with my post was give my reasons for preferring the .40S&W, supported by some rational reasoning. A quick look on the net found arguments and tests in favour and against 9mm/.40/.45 and so on. We could post contradicting gel tests all day about it. Lets not, because it gets a bit boring after a while and turns this thread into another 'my calibre is better than your calibre' one, and these have been done to death.

[edit on 11-7-2007 by PaddyInf]



posted on Jul, 11 2007 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by Retseh
Those who suggest that .45ACP recoil is more severe than .40S&W haven't shot much of either.

.45 is more of a push, the pressure curve is much more shallow, .40 tends to "torque" in the hand, something I have yet to experience to the same degree in other calibers, and has a much higher operating pressure. Did someone also say that .45 has poor penetration, good grief now we're just getting silly, I was going to post some JHP gel tests, but seriously, should I need to? there was also a comment aboout a CCW gun being carried a lot and shot a little, errr no, you need to shoot your CCW gun MORE than your others, think about it.


Felt recoil depends a lot from the weapon, for example if you compare a 9mm USP and CZ-75, the first is going to torgue a lot more due to a higher barrel line... It's all about ergonomics. Only way to effectively compare different calibers would be to use a same gun model in different calibers. (for example a Glock)

As for caliber, anything above .38 special is good enough and after that it's more about a preference than facts. (as there are no proven facts in this issue)





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