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Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
My point with the fairy tale creatures that, if you have no substantial arguements for god, other than a book, then why is he any more likely to exist then the creatures of other books. Other than the fact that adults like his book.
And the whole seems like he dont exist thing, i was saying that the main defense against claims against mainly the Judeo-Christian god, they cannot be refuted, fall back on this unarguable premise where god exists, but has the characteristics of something taht doesnt. Which puts the non believer in quite the perdicament, which is why i added the last quote.
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
examples - Is it possible for god to create a boulder so big that even he cant move it.
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
examples -
Is it possible for god to create a boulder so big that even he cant move it. If he can, it proves that something can exist greater that god, and god is no longer "all powerful".
variation - Can god kill himself? If he can, then obvciously he is not all mighty, and immortal for he has the ability to kill himself. If he cannot, then there is an action he cannot do, therefor also not makng him all powerful.
If god were to look down and see the horrors of genocide occuring, in lets say Darfur, and he upon his throne, Is able but not willing to save the innocent people, then he is accutually a malevolent god. If he is willing, but not able then he is not all powerful.
Originally posted by runetang
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
variation - Can god kill himself?...
Yes, to experience death I suppose...
Originally posted by runetang
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
If god were to look down and see the horrors of genocide occuring,...
In order for free will to exist, God has to obey a strict code of no-direct-interference.
If he directly interferes and helps the people of Darfur, well then hey, God is no longer a 'maybe', he's an obvious reality!
Free will = gone.
God cannot intercede, regardless of whats going on. He can, but he's sort of sworn himself not to..
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
smokey, you're going to get the ridiculous statement that god is beyond the comprehension of humans and that all of the points you bring up are completely unrelated to god.
how about this one: could god heat an object so hot that even he couldn't touch it?
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
alright ben, how about these arguments:
could god create a being more powerful than itself?
could god create an object that god could not manipulate once created?
could god remove itself from existence?
and my favorite argument against omnipotence: could god remove free will?
Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
Alirght ben you are still proving my point. theists have many ways and arguements that put god in a situation where there is no logical or evidence supported arguement that can be put against him. So why am i even here. Essentially what your saying is for athiests to disprove god, the only rule being that hes is immune to arguement. I think i go argue my wall, its far easier.
Originally posted by ben91069
...a true believer should know that their Jesus and God is something that can only be approached with faith in something unproveable and unseen.
If it were a matter of collecting evidence and proving the case, then salvation would be in the hands of men and not God.
God chooses who is his and who is not.
But, understand that whomever isn't chosen is not cast away into a literal hell fire.
There is a new Heaven and a new Earth.
It would be pretty useless to be sitting around in Heaven doing nothing but singing praises to God all the time, so the plan is to renew all of the creation and make it new again.
Hell is actually a seperation from God, not some torment.
Originally posted by Columbus
Why must god be unprovable? Aren't unprovable claims suggestive of conniving?
How can knowing for certain that god exists automatically get you salvation? Okay, since you know I exist, I guess I have to excuse you from Hell?
God chooses who is his and who is not.
How can there be anything that is not god's? If I hold up this slice of pizza and say, god can't have this, is that justifiable?
But, understand that whomever isn't chosen is not cast away into a literal hell fire.
Thank you ben.
There is a new Heaven and a new Earth.
What's wrong with the old ones?
It would be pretty useless to be sitting around in Heaven doing nothing but singing praises to God all the time, so the plan is to renew all of the creation and make it new again.
Great plan, why not just fix the ones we got? Isn't it just as useless to throw out a perfectly good heaven and earth? Oh, and didn't anyone tell you that a god that needs constant praise is pitiful yet?
Hell is actually a seperation from God, not some torment.
I know some people who think these are still the same things. Funny, I don't feel tormented.
Originally posted by ben91069
I am not going to fill my time with an endless debate about these things, because IMO it is neither here nor there if you catch my drift.
...there is no way for either of us to prove our point. You may feel differently, but I feel this way.
God is unprovable by direct observation for a period of time known as the creation, figuratively the story in Genesis.
He will not always be unprovable, but at this point in time he is.
The reason for his mysterious disappearance is not about being sneaky, but rather to support the concept of true faith - that is faith without evidence.
...elevated in hierarchy...
...legitimate judgment from everyone else...
...believing in something without evidence ...rather than a person making up evidence...
In a scientific context, unprovable claims do not suggest any hidden agendas, just that it is not yet known.
First, I cannot explain to you why it gets you salvation. There is no rhyme or reason as to why we are saved.
It is similar to the concept that some people live in poverty and some born rich all because of fate.
The world is a deck of cards and so is salvation. The only thing I can say is that it is God's will that some are presented with salvation.
For the latter, I actually do not know that you exist.
I would have every reason to believe that you could not excuse me from hell, unless of course, you actually did just that.
This is just figurative language not to be taken at face value. All is God's but there always has to be a pecking order or the universe would be stagnant.
What I mean is God chooses who will be spirit and who will be physical; those who will be bound and those who will be free. One will be limited and one will not be. The greater will serve the lesser.
Thanking me already like a theist would are you? Usually an atheist would wait for the evidence of what I have said.
Wars, famine, pestilence, inequalities, etc, etc, etc. Since we have an imperfect world and of course that pesky thing called death, I would say there is a lot wrong with the world. It is not suitable to live in, which is why all it's inhabitants eventually die.
The praise he requires is not what they teach in church.
It is supernatural.
Perhaps you should reduce your morphine drip.
Seriously, not everyone lives a pleasant existence, so your perspective of life may be better than others.
Still, the world has all the facets of hell, including lack of a verifiable God.