why is Math the universal lenguage...what about music?

I have always wondered why Math is considered the universal language when i believe Music is more universal than math, I have read some articles that considers music AN universal language. Numbers are infinite, which can make the communication gap a little complicated, heres an example. Pi.=3.14 but is that it?

The mathematical constant π is a transcendental (and therefore irrational) real number, approximately equal to 3.14159, which is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter in Euclidean geometry, and has many uses in mathematics, physics, and engineering. It is also known as Archimedes' constant (not to be confused with an Archimedes number) and as Ludolph's number.

That is wilkipedia's definition for Pi. it sounds more complicated already. and even if you know what Pi is, then you have to understand other laws and how to put into use...if you are as mathematically challenged as I am then this so called universal language doesn't make sense.

Music in the other hand consists of 7 main notes no matter what instrument you play or what part of the world you in the notes will be the same. you dont need to know about music to understand it, as long as you groove to a song you have gotten what music is about to you, Music can and has reached more people world wide than math. and if I'm not mistaken maybe music has been around longer than math.

whats more universal Math or Music? Any thoughts

Math is the universal language of humans who agree that math is the universal language.

Unfortunately, these same humans have not established meaningful communication with any of the other millions of Earth species using math or any other language. I don't give a flip what earth-bound "experts" claim, it's highly unlikely that an extraterrestrial intelligence is going to pick up on our math any more readily than would, say, a porpoise.

So, "universal language" is just another human-centric boast, IMO.

— Doc Velocity

Considering that every mathematical concept had to be invented, that the base ten numbering system is not necessarily universal in any sense, and that even human societies exist in which quantification is a barely-used concept, I don't think math is the universal language some take it to be.

Our means to communicate our perceptions of reality are severely limited. Mathematics is just one arbitrary framework through which we can view the chaos of our reality.

Music works for some people, but once again, nothing is universal. The universe includes a sizable number of deaf people, and may, perhaps, contain entire extraterrestrial species that simply never evolved the ability to perceive sound as we do.

Complexity is funny stuff.

Mathematics can describe everything in nature including music.

Something like π would be known and recognized by any advanced alien technological species, while appreciation of music could vary widely from species to species. Some species coudl even be deaf.

So Math is the universal language.

Music works for some people, but once again, nothing is universal. The universe includes a sizable number of deaf people

there have been some people that have written music while deaf bethoven is one of a few but here is a list of more



* Ludwig van Beethoven
* Gabriel Fauré
* Robert Franz
* Evelyn Glennie
* Johnnie Ray
* Signmark
* Bedřich Smetana

this proves that even deaf people can enjoy and even make music i doubt an illiterate person can solve a mathematical equation...



[edit on 14-4-2007 by dvd500]

[edit on 14-4-2007 by dvd500]

[edit on 14-4-2007 by dvd500]

Math isn't just equations. It's everything logical, basically, including music, all science, simple counting...

Also, all music isn't broken into seven notes. At all. In any way, whatsoever.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Johnmike]

All the more reason to see an underlying mathematical underpinning to music.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
All the more reason to see an underlying mathematical underpinning to music.

Agreed.

As a musician, I can tell you musical theory is essentially 100% applied mathmatics.

I'm terrible at math though - so I have to rely on playing by ear, but everything breaks down to mathmatical formula - from time signature, to beats, to measures.

Fascinating.

do
re
mi
fa
sol
la
ti

those are the main notes. i count 7 are there any other main notes...sharps and flats don't count cause they're not main notes.

everything about math an equation otherwise 2+2=5 see what happens when the right equations are not followed? even the definition of the word equation in the modern dictionary uses the word math or mathematics as an explanation so of course math is all about equations.

Originally posted by GENERAL EYES

Originally posted by djohnsto77
All the more reason to see an underlying mathematical underpinning to music.

Agreed.

As a musician, I can tell you musical theory is essentially 100% applied mathmatics.

I'm terrible at math though - so I have to rely on playing by ear, but everything breaks down to mathmatical formula - from time signature, to beats, to measures.

Fascinating.

in the same breath couldnt you argue that Mathematical theory is 100% applied music?

[edit on 14-4-2007 by dvd500]

In ancient kabbalah it is taught that the world is based both on music and mathematics. There is a spiritual collaboration with the number 7 that also resonates in music..

7 colors of the rainbow, or 7 notes on a music scale..

I'm probably way off, however I'm tired, and for some reason that thought came to my head.

Originally posted by dvd500
in the same breath couldnt you argue that Mathematical theory is 100% applied music?

No because while math can describe music, music can't describe all the other things math can.

Try to describe π or i or e in music.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by dvd500
in the same breath couldnt you argue that Mathematical theory is 100% applied music?

No because while math can describe music, music can't describe all the other things math can.

Try to describe π or i or e in music.

fair enough

can you describe re using math?

All so true without mathematics there would be no electronic music
checkout this site about math and electronic music

Also many of the hardware stuff such as the roland tb 303 or the 707, 909 would never have been available to us if the inventors didnt have a good grasp of maths

here some more information on the maths in those maschines invovled

Any civilization that is advanced enough to be able to detect another
civilization will have devloped mathematics themselves, and therefore
mathematics can be used as a universal language.

A civilization can not develop technology if they go around thinking
2+2=5.

Everything else I would say has been said, so i am going to go sit in
my corner now.

Originally posted by dvd500
can you describe re using math?

Just read this:

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by dvd500
do
re
mi
fa
sol
la
ti

those are the main notes. i count 7 are there any other main notes...sharps and flats don't count cause they're not main notes.

everything about math an equation otherwise 2+2=5 see what happens when the right equations are not followed? even the definition of the word equation in the modern dictionary uses the word math or mathematics as an explanation so of course math is all about equations.

There's no such thing as a main notes. In the scale commonly used in Western countries, you have a the following notes:

A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A

That's the A chromatic scale, going up by half-steps. These are only called "half" steps because that's how it was assigned under our naming system. Basically, "A" just represents a certain frequency of sound. You could put a note between C# and D and call it "note R" or something, and it would exist. It's just that most Western instruments couldn't play it without special tuning.

I think certain Eastern scales have quarter steps or something.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
All so true without mathematics there would be no electronic music
checkout this site about math and electronic music

Also many of the hardware stuff such as the roland tb 303 or the 707, 909 would never have been available to us if the inventors didnt have a good grasp of maths

here some more information on the maths in those maschines invovled

but the catch about that argument is that without the actual Music factor inventors wouldn't have the need to invent a piece of equipment that will produce music. Besides music has been around from way before the need of electronics. in the times of mozart sheets of music were their mp3's. and now that you bring up the fact that electronic music is the result of mathematical softwares...i recommend you watch The making of Dark side of the moon Pink Floyd, for the song Money what they created was pretty much a sampler sort of the kind you would hear now a days using an electronic sampler. how they did this by running really long reel around an empty room. to create this effect. Pink floyd is a pioneer for electronic music, they used no softwares for that particular album

[edit on 14-4-2007 by dvd500]

Originally posted by dvd500
but the catch about that argument is that without the actual Music factor inventors wouldn't have the need to invent a piece of equipment that will produce music.

All instruments (including the human vocal chords) are essentially machines that create sound waves. Some of these frequencies when put in patterns are pleasing to the human ear. Whether they are digital machines (such as a synthesizer) or an analog machine (such as a trombone or the human voice itself) really doesn't matter. It can all be described mathematically.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by dvd500
do
re
mi
fa
sol
la
ti

those are the main notes. i count 7 are there any other main notes...sharps and flats don't count cause they're not main notes.

everything about math an equation otherwise 2+2=5 see what happens when the right equations are not followed? even the definition of the word equation in the modern dictionary uses the word math or mathematics as an explanation so of course math is all about equations.

There's no such thing as a main notes. In the scale commonly used in Western countries, you have a the following notes:

A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G# A

That's the A chromatic scale, going up by half-steps. These are only called "half" steps because that's how it was assigned under our naming system. Basically, "A" just represents a certain frequency of sound. You could put a note between C# and D and call it "note R" or something, and it would exist. It's just that most Western instruments couldn't play it without special tuning.

I think certain Eastern scales have quarter steps or something.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Johnmike]

www.phy.mtu.edu...

heres a little quote on this article

Since there are seven possible starting notes, you get seven possible "modes."