why is Math the universal lenguage...what about music?

we as humans are a conceited specimen, we have to have an explanation for everything, and when we don't have a concrete explanation for something we give it an explanation that makes us feel smart. thats how mathematical equation can be used to describe music or almost anything for that fact, and when math doesnt work we use science, when you need to use math backed up by science to explain something, its no longer simple to understand for all, hence it ceases to be an "universal" language. you can even listen to natures own music, it has no concept of tones, semitones, scales etc yet there is music in nature.

sure you can use math to explain music using mathematical terminologies but the same could be said that you can use music to explain math and heres the proof sing the following sentance in any melody you want...

"two plus two is four...two plus two is four"

see how easy it is to explain math with music?

here is a question for all of us to answer.

what drives humans most? Emotions or Logic?

music=emotions
math=logic

heres a cliche scenario using both logic and emotions to analyze the outcome. You have a family who is starving you know that if they don't eat soon they will die, there is no means for you to get food or money except by stealing it.

Logic. tells you stealing is bad and letting your family die is bad.
Emotions will make you act out on your logic.

now ask your self the same question what drives humans more logic or emotions?

Originally posted by dvd500
sure you can use math to explain music using mathematical terminologies but the same could be said that you can use music to explain math and heres the proof sing the following sentance in any melody you want...

"two plus two is four...two plus two is four"

see how easy it is to explain math with music?

I don't get it. How does that explain mathematics in any way? That's just singing an equation, it doesn't actually explain how maths works. I've explained how maths is directly linked to music, I don't think music can affect mathematics. You could sing about anything, it doesn't mean it's a valid explanation or that your singing is the base of the subject matter.

here is a question for all of us to answer.

what drives humans most? Emotions or Logic?

music=emotions
math=logic

Both of them, but the point of the discussion was which one was a universal language as in communication, not which one drives humans to do things for themselves. Logic isn't a language, it's a personal way of thinking.

Anyway I think that general expression and actions is the most universal language.

Music is math.

As for the deaf musicians, I can only speak of Beethoven, whom I have studied biographically for years. Beethoven did not begin to go deaf until he was in his late twenties.

By that time, of course, Beethoven had been studying music for many years, including years of study under his father, Joseph Hayden, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, and others.

Beethoven could write music even as he gradually grew deaf because he was a genius of unprecedented magnitude and because he understood the mathematical foundations of tonality and rhythm.


[edit on 2007/4/20 by GradyPhilpott]

Beethoven could write music even as he gradually grew deaf because he was a genius of unprecedented magnitude and because he understood the mathematical foundations of tonality and rhythm.

Yes but String Quartet No. 14 was achieved when he was deaf.....to me in my own humble opinion it means:

1. He composed using purely math
2. He composed based on learned tones (what he experienced/learned before losing his hearing)

Same question from a different angle:

1. Try composing a "hit" musical.... using purely math
2. Try Writing a "revolutionary" equation... using purely music

Funny how we as an "advanced race" are still arguing about this and we still cannot agree as to what a universual language is.....

what I mean by "we" is all of us....is english the universal language? or cantonese?

I believe that math is a universal language.... it seems some people are looking at it like "if i show an alien 1+1, will he show 2 fingers?" The only way that math wouldn't be on every planet is if that planet didn't exist...

no matter where you are, if you take 1 thing and another, you have 2... but that does not mean "2" means "2" everywhere because it could be represented by "æ" or something random. If you are born deaf, music would be of no use to you, unless you were unaware of your existence, math WOULD.

-Bumross.

EDIT: as a sperm, we cant make music... but we sure can multiply!

[edit on 10-5-2007 by Bumr055]

Yes, music is math. And music is the key to understanding the universe. Or rather harmonics and resonant frequencies are the keys to understanding the universe. There are lots of references in religion and occult and science to sounds, words, vibrations. Hence, math is the universal language, not to communicate with other species, but to communicate with God/Nature/Theory of Everything.

[edit on 26-5-2007 by TheComte]

it's not. geometry is (and yes, i maintain that geometry is distinguishable from strictly mathematcs). some aliens can't hear. oh yeah, and we count: 5, 3, 9, 2, 55, 53, 59...

[edit on 5/27/2007 by verbal kint]

Not only is music itself based almost exclusively on mathematic principals, but the instruments themselves are perfect examples of mathematic perfection. For example, all stringed instruments are based and built on these principals...you pluck a note nearer the nut on one string the string vibrations have a longer wavelength, making the note sound lower to human ears. Now, pluck another note closer to the bridge...the wavelength is shortened and thus a higher note is observed. Also, stringed instruments have incredible pressure placed on them by the strings themselves (hundreds of pounds of pressure in some cases) and this is what creates the resonance inside an acoustic instrument such as member of the viol family, violin family, guitars, lutes, Oud's etc. Acoustic instruments such as these need incredible bracing inside the body of the instrument to prevent the tops of them from caving in or cracking. There are essentially only a few notes in musical vocabulary such as:

A, A#/Bb, B, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab

All known instruments can only play these particular 12 notes and some blue notes, and they are recycled over and over again in order. However, what makes the tone and pitch of an instrument sound higher/lower is the thickness of strings and where you place pressure on those strings on a stringed instrument, or the pressure with which you blow into a woodwind or brass instrument as another example. Which of these notes one plays also determines which one is likely to come next as there is a certain degree of being able to conclude this with great accuracy, and this gives rise to the mathematical relationships in the Form of music (Rhythm Changes, Chord changes, AABA form, ABCA, etc...etc...). To save time explaining, just look here: Explanation

So, in relation to the topic at hand all of string wavelength, pressure, and resonance make you hear what you hear...all based on mathematical principals.

Even other instruments such as the Trombone, flute, Saxophone, Clarinet, etc. are based on mathematical and physical principals that dictate the flow of air through an instrument. Take the Trombone for instance, as you elongate air column the wavelength of air passing through the trombone changes the pitch of the instrument and alters the frequency that the instrument is played at. The same principal works for most all wind instruments.

Now, as others have explained before, music itself is nothing more than a represenatation of mathematical principals that forecast and explain why a certain note is played in a certain position. Lets just take a Waltz rhythm for example (a Waltz is a time signature in 3/4 meaning there are three seperate 1/4 note beats), one starts out playing a simple waltz rhythm with three beats to the measure. Another person starts to solo over that particular rhythm, and the notes he plays must fit in and equal the value of the entire measure. Thus if he decides to play a melody with only 1/8th notes over the Waltz, there would be two 1/8th notes per 1/4 note...and it can be subdivided further than that as well. The whole principle of music is built on fractions, geometry, ratios, intervals, etc. and even such extreme forms of music like the Free Jazz or Free Improvisation (no set meter, form, BPM, and many other things) of Coltrane or Coleman is built on these principals or an arbitration of these principals in accordance with the rules of music. I could go on and on for days talking about this, but I think to eliminate the need for me to created multiple posts please refer to the following:

Wavelength

Math and Music on the Brain

Piano's and Fractions

Physics of Music

Now, someone can actually convert music into a form of mathematics, but the underlying conversion is and always will start with mathematics that originally were laid down. Math remains the univeral language because of this...even simple things to understand like playing a sport rely solely on mathematics...Fractional Geometry in many cases. You can break mathematical principals down to describe how everything works and why it works they way it does, but as far as I am aware of there is nothing that can describe these mathematical fundamentals except for math itself...its sort of an absolute!

Music is one of the forms of our senses: Hearing, tasting, feeling, seeing, etc. and to imply that all species that exist in the universe have these same characteristics is norrowminded. Mathematics has been described as the "univeral language" because even without these human characteristics another species would be able to understand it in one form or another.

Now, on a side note, I am a musician and in particular a Jazz musician at that. The music I play is for the most part based entirely upon improvisation (playing with minimal forethought), but I think a lot of people get confused as to what exactly this means. Some people even go so far as to suggest that there are some forms of music that are purely emotional and not based on mathematics...this is simply untrue. When someone improvises what they are doing is listening to everyone else playing in a certain key and tempo, and then basing their playing on the chord changes represented around a certain theme. The music, and in particular the melody you are hearing, are all based around certain principals and knowledge of fractions. Even music that sounds as if it is "otherworldly" such as Free Jazz, and certain Improvisations has its fundamental roots in mathematics. Even in these forms of music each musician is listening to the others in order to follow certain rules that have been preconceived.

All of this is exactly why music in particular will never precede mathematics as a universal language of sorts.

Great topic by the way!

[edit on 28-5-2007 by Jazzerman]

Music is based on vibrations.

We all feel them and our bodies respond to them.

I wrote a few songs, with no words, that made one of my friends burst out in tears... which is exactly what I wanted to convey. Emotion.

Everyone has their own interpretation of any song. That is why I don't pay attention to lyrics. They're just words, but it's the melody that they're sang in that is what I like.