I can't stand the bible now

Well I'm atheistic and from what I've read in the quran it seems a lot less tolerant than the new testament of the bible. Granted the old would be more comparible, but Jesus did not seem like a horrible character or a bad role model. If that is that christian's are trying to look up to, I wouldn't be concerned about it.

Originally posted by laiguana
Well I'm atheistic and from what I've read in the quran it seems a lot less tolerant than the new testament of the bible. Granted the old would be more comparible, but Jesus did not seem like a horrible character or a bad role model. If that is that christian's are trying to look up to, I wouldn't be concerned about it.

The problem with Christianity as a religion is that it has been highjacked by many unsavory entities. So what you see today is not really what it is supposed to represent, but a global following that is nothing different than any other secular following. There is nothing about organized Christianity today that actually sets it apart from anything else in the worlds view of thinking.

It's true message is the absolution of all sins (transgressions or evil deeds) by means of divine understanding called grace. It calls for following an example to become God-like by having faith in the truth that God is not a punisher, but a forgiver in light of a world in which we live that is quite contrary to this ideal.

The problem with the Christian religion is that many of its followers try to take worldy ideas and make them fit their agenda or vice versa. This isn't unusual or new, but our very writings refer to this phenomenon:

Luke 5:37,38 No one puts new wine into old wineskins, or else the new wine will burst the skins, and it will be spilled, and the skins will be destroyed. But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved. No man having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’"

Of course another poster on here criticized the use of parables as being deceptive, but I think that is just a jealous statement made from a lack of understanding. The above quote is a spiritual reference of why spirituality and the physical world do not mesh well until the physical is made new again.
The typical churchian will think this verse is talking of wine and wineskins, when in fact it is talking about the differences between the physical world and the spiritual world.

"You have voted Columbus for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month."

Nice work my fellow Human Being! Nice work! You are very educated, please continue to talk and spread the truth, I don't think you know how much it helps, and if you do... well then you'll be around for some time Thank you for the informative posts

Originally posted by Columbus
People already know killing is wrong. People already know the right and wrong of everything the church teaches, especially when what the church teaches is wrong.

Originally posted by Duckster
Why do you place blame on religions for life's monstrosities and in the same breath quote what you did above?

Maybe you could explain what you mean by "life's monstrosities." I don't find life monstrous, but certainly there are immoral, unsympathetic, and remorseless people out there. It can be the result of being brainwashed by religion, the CIA, or have neurological defects or damage. People who act out of rage usually regret it severely and may degenerate into mental illness. This is why the death penalty is abhorrent to so many people.

Originally posted by ben91069
The problem with Christianity as a religion is that it has been highjacked by many unsavory entities.

Christianity was created by those you accuse of hijacking it.

Originally posted by ben91069
There is nothing about organized Christianity today that actually sets it apart from anything else in the worlds view of thinking.

Since the majority of the Western world is Christian, it would be hard to see such a difference!

Originally posted by ben91069
It's true message is the absolution of all sins (transgressions or evil deeds) by means of divine understanding called grace.

The problem with this, it that forgiveness should come from the people you hurt, not some third party that you ascribe all hurt to. Just because you think god forgives you doesn't mean you done anything to appease me. All I want is a sincere apology, a demonstration of sympathy and morality, but Christians have become totally detached from the real meaning of forgiveness and morality.

Originally posted by ben91069
Of course another poster on here (me) criticized the use of parables as being deceptive, but I think that is just a jealous statement made from a lack of understanding. The above quote is a spiritual reference of why spirituality and the physical world do not mesh well until the physical is made new again.

I have studied the whole Bible several times in Christian Bible Studies. I know the interpretations of the parables and I also know why the interpretations are wrong.

Taking your wineskin parable as an example. It teaches that you are born dead spiritually, but not really, just corrupt, and you must die spiritually and be reborn spiritually (born again). This describes exactly the process of brainwashing so I recommend researching that subject to understand the total worthlessness of Christianity. This parable also teaches that you must die physically and be reborn in a glorified new body that is the only suitable container for your new spirit. It's really not a very good analogy anyway.

The main problem with this reasoning is that it implies this imaginary spiritual thing called corruption infects physical things, your whole physical body, even trees, rocks, everything. Many Christians believe the whole physical world has become contaminated and must be destroyed. It's psychopathic and suicidal.

This is why Christianity is really dangerous and must be exterminated.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
"You have voted Columbus for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month."

Although I appreciate it, I think the honor belongs to the OP.

You have voted madnessinmysoul for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I think it's worthwhile to speak our minds, but I get tired of speaking to the wall. Not everyone is a wall and not every wall can hold out.

Help me work on WiseSheep. His illness is bad.

Originally posted by Columbus

Although I appreciate it, I think the honor belongs to the OP.

Nah, it was for you! You deserve it. De- serve? You get my point

Help me work on WiseSheep. His illness is bad.

But remember, he is still our fellow brother of Humanity. Will do

You & I generally end up on opposite ends of these conversations, so I'll post this once and let it drop.

It all depends on what you expect from the Bible.

If you think it should be a reader's digest "Lives of the Saints," then you are right to be sorely dissapointed.

If you expect a "sears' catalogue" of how to be happy, again, you're going to be unsatisfied.

I'll tell you what I think the Bible is:

A human record of humanity's interaction with the divine, including some input from the divine.

It isn't the "direct commands from GOD" thing that a lot of simpletons make it out to be. C'mon. The book of Esther doesn't even mention God once.

So, reading it this way, I'm not surprised when the creation story reads like the Hebrews' Sumerian neighbors, or when God is portrayed is being angry at the oppressors of the Hebrews.

On the other hand, I think the Holy Spirit used their historical experiences to tweak them a little bit, and tell them "hey, you remember what it's like to be enslaved, to have your daughters raped, etc. Maybe you shouldn't do it to others, since you don't care for it yourselves."

As a decades-long student of various sacred texts, I am convinced that God was communicating with a lot of the people involved. Pointing out that even though David was a Hebrew hero, he was still basically a glorified sheep thief, and still broke the rules and had to pay.

The fascinating parts of the Bible are the parts where God speaks to people in surprising ways, and says things that go beyond Hebrew culture and address the human situation.

Is it a super-human text? No. Does it contain human interaction with the paranormal? definitely.

All the best.

.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
the book seems so ridiculous and intolerable now.

I COMPLETELY understand what you are saying. I am older now and in the past few years have taken another look at the bible. This time a SERIOUS look.

The inconsistencies are too numerous to mention. The flip-flopping is incredible. The errors are blinding! The contadictions .. OH MY! When the Old Testament is quoted I just about gag. I would point them all out as examples, but from what you have said I think I'd just be preaching to the choir.

I'm still having a hard time with Moses. Moses, who appeared to Christ in glory during the transfiguration. That means God thought he was a good guy and he got into heaven, right? But when you look at what Moses did .. yikes! He would order the enemy completely destroyed - every man, woman and child - but would tell the Jewish warriors to spare the young virginal girls so that they could keep them as sex toys. (so much for - thou shalt not commit adultry, eh?) And he makes an idol - a snake thing - and tells everyone that if they look upon it as it is raised over their heads, then they will be cured of snake venomous bites. Idolotry.

And then there is onanism. Poor Onan. His brother dies so he HAS to marry his sister in law. He 'pulls out early' during sex and later dies. Wanna bet it's a heart attack from the stress of having to live with nit-wits? But history (the bible) records that God slew Onan because he 'pulled out' of his new wife instead of impregnating him. So how would the writer of the bible story know that? Heart attack or stroke due to the stress of losing a brother and then of his new wife blabbing about his sex life most likely is what killed him.

Don't even get me started on Revelation ...

Now let's take a look at why those things are there. Did God do that? No. It was people. Flawed humans who screw up just about everything they touch. So while Noah's Ark is a complete myth, those who read the story should take it as one takes a fairy tale with a morale. At least, that's what I have tried to do lately. That works in some places, but in others it doesn't.

But I totally hear ya' Maddness. I'm having a very hard time with it too. At least the old testament part. (and Christ's lineage in the New Testament? :shk: )

MADDNESS - you said you are reading the Islamic book now. I don't think you'll find it any better. It has inconsistencies and direct contradictions as well. It's a mess. But go ahead and read it. You'll see.

Originally posted by Columbus
It is flawed.

Everything humans do is flawed. The parts of the bible that are really inspired by God ... have to go through a flawed human filter to make it to the bible. The parts of the bible that record history, record flawed human history (Moses). The parts that are fairy tales that tell morals, have been recorded as history lessons by a flawed system/person.

An immortal entity cannot die on the cross.

Christ was immortal AND human. His human body died. His immortality didn't. Dual nature. This is entirely possible.

Eve was innocent according to the law,

The only law at that time was - do not eat the fruit of the tree. She broke that law and therefore she was not innocent according to the law of that time. --- assuming that there even was an Eve.

Originally posted by DarkSide
People didn't run around killing people before religion was written.

OF COURSE they did. Any evolutionary psychologist will tell you that our ancestors were brutal. Even today murder is observed in chimps. Religion didn't cause murder to evolve in humans. In some cases religion reigns it in .. and in other cases religion is the spark to ignite the murder. But we humans definately murdered before and without religion.

Originally posted by ben91069
The problem with Christianity as a religion is that it has been highjacked by many unsavory entities.

Most religions get hijacked.

[edit on 4/15/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by GreatTech
For those who do not believe in the Bible, I suggest that you write a better book. If you cannot fully equal it, you cannot fully criticize it. Present your best written document and see how many years it lasts as a publication.

I should start believing because I am not capable of creating a book that sells as well?

If this is really your argument then I pitty the debate.

The bible is a guide. It's also a living thing, capable of meaning different things to different minds. How you approach it will affect your message. The true desire of God is for us to eliminate death. The bible refers to this many times. Until we eliminate death through blind faith that God is real and is our maker, life will go on as usual. So yes, what I'm saying is that unlocking the key to death is the only way to break the curse. The key is in the bible. Obey your gut.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Christ was immortal AND human. His human body died. His immortality didn't. Dual nature. This is entirely possible.

Let me explain why this is wrong. In the beginning you must understand the single meaning of death, that it is an ultimate end. This is what an immortal cannot understand. It is only from the perspective of believing that you are immortal, that you have a soul or spirit that cannot die, that you start to lose the basic meaning of death. This is natural in people to suppress the fear of death, but when you start feeling death has no sting, death starts to lose meaning and become fluid. Then you can kill people arbitrarily and even commit suicide for questionable objectives.

I seriously urge people to understand death as the singular thing that it is and not be confused by religious brainwashing regarding "spiritual death" that has no real meaning.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The only law at that time was - do not eat the fruit of the tree. She broke that law and therefore she was not innocent according to the law of that time.

It was not a law, but a command. The issue here is that Eve could not be certain which was true based on two contradictory inputs. The snake was right anyway. This is merely an attempt to support collectivism, everybody follow the commands of the leader and nobody think for themselves, investigate the truth, or act independently.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
A human record of humanity's interaction with the divine, including some input from the divine.

It is a biased record from the Hebrews perspective with God inserted everywhere because people without philosophy are generally obsessive about God. Wars weren't lost because the king had lousy strategy, it was the people's fault for being sinful.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
"hey, you remember what it's like to be enslaved, to have your daughters raped, etc. Maybe you shouldn't do it to others, since you don't care for it yourselves."

The Bible condones slavery and orders the Hebrews to take the daughters of their slain enemies, and to slay ALL the men.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I am convinced that God was communicating with a lot of the people involved.

As a theologian, you should seriously consider the possibility that God does not exist because the evidence is in fact conclusive that he is an impossible non-concept equal to the last significant digit of pi.

Orignally posted by stompk
Until we eliminate death through blind faith that God is real and is our maker, life will go on as usual.

You only hide death from yourself in an illusion (all you need for that is to believe you have an immortal soul), you do not actually destroy death in reality. That is impossible.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
He would order the enemy completely destroyed - every man, woman and child - but would tell the Jewish warriors to spare the young virginal girls so that they could keep them as sex toys. (so much for - thou shalt not commit adultry, eh?)

If moses was married at that time and had sex with any one of these young virgin girls, he would be commiting adultry, If not, I would have to say "Pimp" or sex slave overseer.

Yikes, I am so burning in hell for this.....

[edit on 17-4-2007 by ixiy]

Jesus came to defeat death. That death cannot hold christ in its arms. O ye of little faith. Many like you, Much more will be saved.

Originally posted by slymattb
Jesus came to defeat death. That death cannot hold christ in its arms. O ye of little faith. Many like you, Much more will be saved.

again, an illogical, irrational personal belief that cannot be proven at all (and don't give me that bull that i cannot disprove it because you're making a claim which makes the burden of proof rest on your shoulders)

Originally posted by slymattb
Jesus came to defeat death. That death cannot hold christ in its arms.

Brainwashers came to use the instinctual fear of death as a crowbar to access your unconscious mind.

Once inside your mind, they deleted death and replaced it with Death, First and Second. There's a big difference. Neither first nor second Death resemble plain ordinary real death, the ultimate finality of life, mortality.

Death is a concept, like hunger. In order to defeat it, no one must be hungry. People still die, therefore Jesus failed.

The claim they are not really dead belies the ignorance of the the thriving funeral industry.

Death can't hold Christ because death has no arms.

I think your avoiding given me prove thats it wrong. It does matter where proof lies. The fact is you can not say it not true cuz there is no proof. Prove it man, get mad jump up and down while you do it. The fact remains you can not say for share That I am wrong.

Originally posted by slymattb
I think your avoiding given me prove thats it wrong. It does matter where proof lies. The fact is you can not say it not true cuz there is no proof. Prove it man, get mad jump up and down while you do it. The fact remains you can not say for share That I am wrong.

You similarly can't say for sure that you are right based an the nature of your belief. Just because you and countless others believe means absolutely nothing on whether you are actually right - its not called blind belief for nothing. You would do well to remember most of your arguments are reversible and apply to your beliefs as well.


G

I'm gonna chime in here.

The Bible is very hard to read thats the truth. I don't know the entire contents of what it says. But brouse around the book stores and see how many Bibles types and such that you can find.

The Church of Roman Catholic kept the scriptures from the common man for 1200 years.

1494 The Archbiship decreed that no unauthorized person shall translate any part of the Holy Scriptures into English or any other language.

William Tyndale went against the order by telling a biship I'll make sure I'll let the farmer know as much scripture as you do.

It took 200 years to traslate the Holy Bible. These men that worked to translate the Bible faced from persecution, jailed, exiled,ortracized and burned at the stake.

William Tyndale was executed October 6, 1536.

In 1604 several men came forward and petitioned the King to authorize the English Bible. 1611 the English Bible was published authorized by King James 1.

The Bible is very hard to read due to the Old English.

And it dosen't matter what you read in the Bible if people won't live by it. Thats whats wrong with people today. And its a shame people can live so much better if they learn to love- show compassion.

But now people gets offended if you even mention the Bible. Or they rather kill you for $100.00 then to ask for it if they really need it.
Some people are violent and just plain mean nowadays simply because they don't read the Bible. And you know this to be true.

If you saw a man injured on the sidewalk would you stop to help or go on your way? There's a story of this in the Bible.

The Holy Bible has very good lessions to live by- but its up to you alone if you want to listen to what it has to say.

Originally posted by Leyla
The Bible is very hard to read due to the Old English.

the kjv isn't in old english, it's in an archaic dialect of modern english.



that is the first page of beowulf written in old english

And it dosen't matter what you read in the Bible if people won't live by it. Thats whats wrong with people today. And its a shame people can live so much better if they learn to love- show compassion.

well.... that's PART of the bible i'd want people to live by. i don't want them to live by the ludicrous laws in the bible... i don't want them to follow in the example of moses (he loved the genocide, so did god)... actually, i really don't want them to live by the majority of what the bible has to say.

But now people gets offended if you even mention the Bible. Or they rather kill you for $100.00 then to ask for it if they really need it.
Some people are violent and just plain mean nowadays simply because they don't read the Bible. And you know this to be true.

no, i know this to be false. there is no direct corollation between bible reading and being a good person. (btw, atheists make up only 0.2% of the prison population... and 10% of the general population. christians make up about 70% of both. my source is a 1997 report by the federal bureau of prisons)

If you saw a man injured on the sidewalk would you stop to help or go on your way? There's a story of this in the Bible.

it's also common sense morality to help him

The Holy Bible has very good lessions to live by- but its up to you alone if you want to listen to what it has to say.

it also has some insanely BAD lessons in it. like "if you don't love your children drown them all and spare a few"
that's an example from the almighty himself.
the bible is, overall, a very vile book with a few redeeming passages.