Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by The Vagabond
First of all, I am almost sure that I heard a relatively rare name in that video, and I graduated MCRD with a Marine of that name (Bohencamp). He's a good friggin guy- definately not somebody who would initiate something like this, and the kind of guy who would be more likely than most to talk if he'd seen it. I'll try to look him up and see if by some amazing stroke of luck the guy I heard being called was the guy I know. I do know that 5th Marines got a lot of guys who graduated the depot at the time we did- most of them actually went to 2/5, not 1/5... but I'll check it out and let you know if my friend actually was there (and it should be verifiable if so).

My thoughts though:

Originally posted by kleverone
Uhh yeah, uhhh we were wrong and should have allowed them to at least identify themselves like police have to

In what universe does the decision to enter an area that non-combatants should be fleeing not constitute identifying yourself?

Please explain to me how you may or may not know you are driving into a combatant area? I see many roads leading to that area, are all the entries and exits marked combatant zone? Are there checkpoints at each entry and exit?

So now to make a little inference. You're being sent into combat and you've been given a rocket launcher so that you won't get bogged down and torn up by enemies holding up in a building along your route. You encounter some civilians you want to slaughter. Do you: A. Shoot them. or B. Unncessarily expend mission critical assets which may save your life later?

If I'm not mistaken I can hear one soldiers anxiously ecouraging the other holding the Rocket Launcher to get it up. They obviously didn't need to use it, it was a masacre, they were nowhere near bogged down. I certainly see what you are saying but these soldiers not in danger in this situation. You also mentioned you may have saw a round impact right on the edge, I must have missed that, could you give me a time in the vid so I can check that one out.

A tactics the Marines used would be to airdrop or let it publicly be known that if you were a noncombatant you should leave the city several days beforehand. Then they would clear the city, anyone who stayed behind would be considered a combatant, but it is not as if you would happen to not know everyone is leaving the city and that this was happening, it was clear to everyone what was going down.

Secondly,
The fact that an RPG was used seems barbaric to the average citizen, however, anyone with a military background (which I have) knows that in a firefight fire superiority is the primary objective of the support by fire element, which those Marines were apart of. Overwhelming force is necessary to pin down and suppress the enemy until a cease fire is called. It looks like they are just carelessly goofing off, but in fact they are doing what they are supposed to do and anyone who has been in a firefight knows are getting that rush of adrenaline.

Think about it,
I appreciate your take, thanks for posting.

[edit on 10-4-2007 by kleverone]

Originally posted by laiguana
"pull a drive-by" Lol...It seems like he believes that it's just like LA over in Iraq. Just shows how skewed the perspective is of some people, but what do you expect when all you see is liberal bias in the media these days?

Agreed. A lot of people think it's all puppies, kittens and rainbows over there until our troops start shooting people. Well, it's not. The majority of comments on this thread against the troops are coming from people who have never served and will never understand the true aspects of war. Just because you have played Grand Theft Auto doesn't make you an expert on armed conflict in Iraq.

Is it possible these "civilians" were driving their car during a lock down period where cars were not allowed to be used?

Iraq has had a lot of those periods where personal motor transportation was banned for periods of time.

Without a proper context you can't claim US troops are randomly shooting at and killing civilians.

Plus if you just murdered or were about to murder someone in cold blood with no provocation would you film it, and upload it to youtube.com?

Our Army is a product of ourselves.
Listen to this video. The soldiers are so happy to kill "Dude, look how I ####ed him up! Ha-ha! Cool dude!" This is sick. Should there be a real war these marines may not last long.

But don't blame the marines. Look at our culture. One of the things that unities us the most is ... TV and movies. Look at your average Hollywood blockbuster. Evel is invented and easily justified to be an evil (usually unfair) and then good guys (usually superficial characters) come and kill the eveil 20 times and ENJOY the process.

How are these marines different? They are not.
How is GWB selling us on Iraq war is different? He is not.

We are the problem. Face the problem within the country, don't play the blame game.

Our country is sick inside, we need a better Army and a better political leadership. We need to unite around things that portray the uncompromised values like freedom, humanity, strength, and truth. The real truth.

I don;t even know where to start looking... Do you?

Marbusse I respect what you're trying to get at, but you did it wrong.

These Marines are trained to be very good soldiers. Training might not be perfect, but they are very well trained troopers. What do you mean they won't survive in a "real" war? What other kind of war is there? They are fighting in a "real" war because those aren't blanks that are being exchanged by each side.

As a matter of fact the fighting is A LOT more difficult because they're fighting an unseen enemy in an urban environment with literally hundreds upon thousands of places to hide. Usually sniper fire is the first hint to hostility for them.

I understand that you're trying to get the blame off the troops and onto us all, but that doesn't work because every Marine joined at their own free will. No one, or at least no one should have been drafted. These people chose to be there at their own will. If you join the Marines at a time of war, then yeah they're gonna go to that theatre of combat most likely.

Our Marine Corps does not reflect our society. They reflect some of the best of our Armed Forces which is something completely different.

The only people I blame for sticking our men and women in that hell hole are our administrators.

Shattered OUT...

"Marines will get whooped in a 'real' war????" Are you kidding me? Guess you never heard what the Germans had to say about the US Marines. Called them Devil Dogs because they were so tenacious and determined to win. THe germans even treated captured US Marines with more respect than other captured POWs.

They are laughing because they have just survived a firefight without any one on their side getting hurt. It's a normal psychological stress response. You'd do the EXACT same thing under their circumstances.

They are very competant and capable.

I don't feel bad for those insurgents that they killed. THey used overwhelming fire power. Good job, thats called textbook in any military academy. The people in those cars could have been insurgents chased by another US military element down that street into the waiting Marines as a trap to kill these insurgents. Again good job. Thats what marines are supposed to be doing. None of their men got injured. Kudos again. They showed discipline and stopped fireing when given the order. Not easy to do actually since most platoons can't hear their CO's in the middle of a fire fight and don't stop shooting looooong after the cease fire order. Plus they again used combined arms and attacked the insurgents with both rifles, machine guns, but the rocket launcher. Again textbook and a demonstration of their excellent training. Most militaries think twice about manningtheir posts when they find out those guys charging them aren't regular army but US Marines. Seriously, Marines are distinguished for a reason.

I'd cheer too after that ordeal, it's also another very normal psychological tool used unconciously by all humans to keep comraderie and unit cohesivenes and trust amongst their brothers in arms. They do need to remain a team after all.

Wow, this thread is still going lol? Well, i just popped in to read and I couldnt help noticing that one guy saying something about the US Marines could not perform in a "real war"?
If this isnt a real war then what is it? Everybody knew after Viet Nam, that almost all future major battles would be fought in an urban environment.
Someone mentioned what the Germans thought about fighting Marines but if you want a better example then ask some Japanese Marines, more US Marines fought in the Pacific theater than did in Europe. Their courage doesnt come from trying to survive alone, it also comes from fighting so your fellow Marine survives. Almost all past acts of extreme heroism by Marines, was done because he was trying to save his Comrades.
Its been said by many people from many different Nations, the best trained fighting force in the world is the US Marine Corpse.
And no I was not a Marine, I was a Coastie (Coast Guard) lol

This is my 1st post on ATS and I am enjoying this debate.

I have no issues with people who express opinions but the two things that bothered me enough to post were,
1. There seems to be an assumption that all insurgents are Iraqi's when in fact there are a lot of foreign fighters in Iraq and,
2. That U.S. soldiers are responsible for hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. I personally find this accusation to be absurd.

For the Americans on this board that openly accuse all U.S military personel of murder, how can you sleep at night knowing that you may have an active or former Marine or soldier living in your neighborhood? Wouldn't that thought frighten you?

Originally posted by Marbusse
Our Army is a product of ourselves.
Listen to this video. The soldiers are so happy to kill "Dude, look how I ####ed him up! Ha-ha! Cool dude!" This is sick. Should there be a real war these marines may not last long.

But don't blame the marines. Look at our culture. One of the things that unities us the most is ... TV and movies. Look at your average Hollywood blockbuster. Evel is invented and easily justified to be an evil (usually unfair) and then good guys (usually superficial characters) come and kill the eveil 20 times and ENJOY the process.

How are these marines different? They are not.
How is GWB selling us on Iraq war is different? He is not.

We are the problem. Face the problem within the country, don't play the blame game.

Our country is sick inside, we need a better Army and a better political leadership. We need to unite around things that portray the uncompromised values like freedom, humanity, strength, and truth. The real truth.

I don;t even know where to start looking... Do you?

QFT

Debunk- No one got killed in this video did you not clearly see the writing scrolled Filmed by Doc. No unarmed people were hurt during shooting.

Yes there is a war in Iraq everyone of you should be ashamed for critizing those boys who are away from home and their families. And some will not return alive. I think this is a serious matter of putting up phoney video's that look bad on the troops. And people wonder why people hate Americans.

Good call if you think the German military learned the hard way to fear US MArines than we should hear what the Japanese had to say about going up against US Marines.

I remember reading about some pivotal battle on some Island in the middle of the south pacific. You know the one where the US Marines had to storm and take an island held by the Japanese military. The Japanese were well dug in. I think the odds were 10 Japanese soldiers to every one US Marine. MArines fought hard and tough and kicked the Japanese asses retook the island and I believe killed several times their own number of enemy soldiers in hard combat in the jungle.

Again an example of people who learned the hard way to confront US marines on the battlefield where ever that battlefield may be.

ALso, look into what Force Recon did during the second (still ongoing) Iraq war. THey were beyond lethal. Used as shock troops at the very tip of the spear to break the enemys ability to fight by disarming (read gunning their way out of ) ambushes as they were ordered in unarmored humvees to "move to Engage" unknown sized enemy forces all by themselves on the ground charging through various Iraqi towns and hamlets filled with republican guard and syrian insurgents.

Seriously the US Marine Corp. is a machine when in action and a machine not to get in the way of if you know whats good for you. The guys in that video are a great example of why you don't cross US Marines!

Hey! I got some of my facts wrong with my last post. THank you Shatered Skys for pointing them out to me.

It was the battle of Iwa Jima. we sent 30,000 Marines to take a heavily fortified position. The japanese lost 20,703 men out of their origional 22,000. we lost 6,825 men out of our 30,000 but heres where the real difference came.

A lot of the japanese offed them selves. unwilling to fight the US marines, or because they knew that they were going to get their butts kicked and they didn't want to give the US Marines the pleasure of handing them their ass in a box with a bow attached. Cowards killed themselves. Hurting both their own countrys honor, and their own personal commitment to their country, and themselves.

The US marines out 0f 30,000 men 27,909 took casualties and kept going. Almost all of the US Marines were injured in combat in some way and kept on ticking, relentlessly hunting down their enemy. Thats the problem when you fight US Marines. Their will to kill the enemy is greater than the enemys will to kill them.

If you don't think that impressed the Japanese than I don't know what would.

Some enemy combatants need to learn the hard way that "you have no greater friend, and no greater enemy than a US Marine."