What are the most elite special forces?

Originally posted by cavscout


The best of the best? A Cavscout, damnit!

We have to "master" more combat and specialized skills than anyone in the US military. Just read the link below. We are " flexible, intelligent, resourceful, courageous, and crave danger." You know, like Chuck and Rambo! I heard a nasty rumor that Rambo wanted to be a scout didn’t have a high enough GT score.

And, we are just so damn good looking!

I have heard that even the devil himself will stand at attention when he sees a cavscout. Good thing for him we don’t go to hell like the infantry and marine (see Fiddler’s Green below.)

You can't be serious. You believe that out of all of the elite units in the world that have intense selection processes, prerequisites for even volunteering, highly specialized training(HALO, HAHO, Scuba, CQB, Sniper, Language training, Intel exploitation, explosives, medical, comms, foreign weapons familiarity, mountaineering, advanced entry techniques, etc.....) that an MOS that you can get in OSUT(combined Basic Training/AIT) is the most elite. Your recruiter and Drill Sergeants were highly influential on your obviously impressionable views.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
[You can't be serious.

No, I wasn’t serious, and I can’t believe you weren’t bright enough to figure that out. But just for the sake of denying ignorance, read on.

prerequisites for even volunteering

There are prerequisites for being a scout that most of the Army cannot meet. That’s why we have cooks and infantry.

highly specialized training(HALO, HAHO, Scuba, CQB, Sniper, Language training, Intel exploitation, explosives, medical, comms, foreign weapons familiarity, mountaineering, advanced entry techniques, etc.....)

Actually, if you had read the link I provided you would have learned that we have MORE combat skill tasks than any other MOS, to include SF or Rangers. Let’s go down your list.

BTW: Did you know that a 19 DELTA can call for fire at ANY RANK? Something NO other MOS can say. An E1 private scout can sneak behind enemy lines and call for artillery fire on targets a mile away from him just by looking at a map and figuring out where to send the rounds. Why? because our training allows us to not only perform the complicated task of directing Howitzer batteries but also, we have to be smart enough to know what kind of vehicles we are calling fire on so we don’t blow up any friendly vehicles or civilians.

HALO: Nope, but neither do most SOF jobs, so what is your point there?

HAHO: Yes, there are many HAHO jumper scouts, again not something that is MOS specific.

CQB: Yep, required for scouts

Sniper: Yep, an option.

Language training: nope

Intel Exploitation: ABSULOUTLEY. We sneak behind enemy lines, gather intel, and exploit it.

Medical: YES. Most scouts are also combat lifesavers. After all, who is gonna save us 10 miles into enemy territory?

Explosives: Yep, taught in OSUT. To be specific, we are taught about C-4 (we get to play with it in USUT allot) claymores, land mine emplacement and detection/removal, booby-trap emplacement/detection and removal, water charges, det cord, field expedient explosives... you get the idea.

COMMS: Yes, in fact unlike many MOSs we can actually use the little thingy that encrypts radios at ANY RANK. Actually, most of the coms stuff is classified, and not just anyone can touch it. But scouts can.

Foreign weapons familiarity: Dude, are you for real? We gather intel, we kinda need to know what we are looking at. I would say that a scout more than any person in the US military can identify foreign AND domestic weapons, planes, and ground vehicles (boats not so much.) probably one of the reasons my squadron was tasked with teaching Iraqi Civil Defense Corp AIT. We taught them how to use their AKs and Makarovs.

Mountaineering: Not so much as Ranger, but then that is what they were created for, now isn’t it.

Advanced entry techniques: Like water charges on steel doors? sure, we did that. Oh, you mean rappelling? sure, all Army MOSs do that, if I am not mistaken.

We also learn to drive and maintain a Hummer, a Bradley (baby tank) can operate an M1 tank, must master the m-16, M240B machine gun, 240C machine gun, MK-19 auto grenade launcher, M-2 .50 cal., M203 grenade launcher, 25 mm bushmaster, AT-4 anti tank rocket, TOW wire guided missile (I think that is all of them) all before leaving OSUT.

AND, that isn’t half of what we do.

Like I said, we can do more than ANY other MOS in the US military. Jack of all trades, master of none.

that an MOS that you can get in OSUT(combined Basic Training/AIT) is the most elite.

Again, it was obvious that I was joking about the most elite part, however when you knock our OSUT, keep this in mind: my platoon in OSUT suffered a 48% attrition rate. That means that for one reason or another, almost half of those who started with us couldn’t make it. And that includes two Marines, one of whom had been RECON in the Marines, both of them only joining us half way through, after the hard part was done! They were amazed that they had to do more than 25 push ups for punishment, I guess the MC don’t punish recruits like they used to. One of them busted a rotator cuff and the other went AWOL.

Your recruiter and Drill Sergeants were highly influential on your obviously impressionable views.

Maybe you should hang around a while and get to know your way around ATS before go making statements like that about members that have been around for years. You don’t know me.

Originally posted by cavscout

There are prerequisites for being a scout that most of the Army cannot meet. That’s why we have cooks and infantry.

highly specialized training(HALO, HAHO, Scuba, CQB, Sniper, Language training, Intel exploitation, explosives, medical, comms, foreign weapons familiarity, mountaineering, advanced entry techniques, etc.....)

Actually, if you had read the link I provided you would have learned that we have MORE combat skill tasks than any other MOS, to include SF or Rangers. Let’s go down your list.

BTW: Did you know that a 19 DELTA can call for fire at ANY RANK? Something NO other MOS can say. An E1 private scout can sneak behind enemy lines and call for artillery fire on targets a mile away from him just by looking at a map and figuring out where to send the rounds. Why? because our training allows us to not only perform the complicated task of directing Howitzer batteries but also, we have to be smart enough to know what kind of vehicles we are calling fire on so we don’t blow up any friendly vehicles or civilians.

HALO: Nope, but neither do most SOF jobs, so what is your point there?

HAHO: Yes, there are many HAHO jumper scouts, again not something that is MOS specific.

CQB: Yep, required for scouts

Sniper: Yep, an option.

Language training: nope

Intel Exploitation: ABSULOUTLEY. We sneak behind enemy lines, gather intel, and exploit it.

Medical: YES. Most scouts are also combat lifesavers. After all, who is gonna save us 10 miles into enemy territory?

Explosives: Yep, taught in OSUT. To be specific, we are taught about C-4 (we get to play with it in USUT allot) claymores, land mine emplacement and detection/removal, booby-trap emplacement/detection and removal, water charges, det cord, field expedient explosives... you get the idea.

COMMS: Yes, in fact unlike many MOSs we can actually use the little thingy that encrypts radios at ANY RANK. Actually, most of the coms stuff is classified, and not just anyone can touch it. But scouts can.

Foreign weapons familiarity: Dude, are you for real? We gather intel, we kinda need to know what we are looking at. I would say that a scout more than any person in the US military can identify foreign AND domestic weapons, planes, and ground vehicles (boats not so much.) probably one of the reasons my squadron was tasked with teaching Iraqi Civil Defense Corp AIT. We taught them how to use their AKs and Makarovs.

Mountaineering: Not so much as Ranger, but then that is what they were created for, now isn’t it.

Advanced entry techniques: Like water charges on steel doors? sure, we did that. Oh, you mean rappelling? sure, all Army MOSs do that, if I am not mistaken.

We also learn to drive and maintain a Hummer, a Bradley (baby tank) can operate an M1 tank, must master the m-16, M240B machine gun, 240C machine gun, MK-19 auto grenade launcher, M-2 .50 cal., M203 grenade launcher, 25 mm bushmaster, AT-4 anti tank rocket, TOW wire guided missile (I think that is all of them) all before leaving OSUT.

AND, that isn’t half of what we do.

Like I said, we can do more than ANY other MOS in the US military. Jack of all trades, master of none.

that an MOS that you can get in OSUT(combined Basic Training/AIT) is the most elite.

Again, it was obvious that I was joking about the most elite part, however when you knock our OSUT, keep this in mind: my platoon in OSUT suffered a 48% attrition rate. That means that for one reason or another, almost half of those who started with us couldn’t make it. And that includes two Marines, one of whom had been RECON in the Marines, both of them only joining us half way through, after the hard part was done! They were amazed that they had to do more than 25 push ups for punishment, I guess the MC don’t punish recruits like they used to. One of them busted a rotator cuff and the other went AWOL.

Your recruiter and Drill Sergeants were highly influential on your obviously impressionable views.

Maybe you should hang around a while and get to know your way around ATS before go making statements like that about members that have been around for years. You don’t know me.


So E1 Cav scouts are SFARTAETC/SOTIC trained, know how to USE foreign weapons(and teach others how to as well), know how to use/make improvised demo charges and other non standard explosives, SOF medical training(i.e. minor surgery, dentistry, veterinary, pharmacology, trauma, etc...- a little bit more extensive than CLS), can use a wide variety of radios(satcom, UHF, VHF, HF, morse code), and establish commo shots over hundreds or more miles with the ability to improvise antennas to account for varying wavelengths), cultural understanding of the target AO and the language ability to communicate and establish rapport, entry techniques with or without demo charges(i.e. lock picking etc.. just in case you don't want someone to know you've been there/or that you are there), advanced driving techniques(on racetracks learning defensive driving techniques and how to disable other vehicles), intel saavy to know a little more than providing a SALUTE report(i.e. this is a new system, because it has a different configuration, has this capability, etc..), and the ability to operate 150 or more miles behind enemy lines/the nearest friendly unit, or in other countries clandestinely.

I'm not saying that Cavscouts don't have their place, but they are an entirely conventional unit, and perhaps a very well trained one at what they do. They provide tactical CCIRs to the manuever commander, but SOF provides Strategic intel.

If you're going after an HVT, WMD, hostage, etc.. I think a SOF unit might be the better choice than a bunch of Cavscouts though.

Who are the most elite force in the world? Its GI JOE of course theyre always chasing me around the globe. Ive heard about a SFOD-F as well codenamed Fox Hound started by some SF guy with an eye patch if I remember.

On a more serious note. I think Israeli Special forces would definitely be in the top three. As part of their initial training they sneak into hostile countries undetected. I have heard rumors though of an elite American unit that once went by the code name Grey Fox. Supposedly it is even more elite than Delta. It no longer goes by the name Grey Fox though according to what Ive heard.

As for Cav Scouts being most elite, you must be joking. I have been in the US army seven years, Four of those years I was an M1 Abrams crewman. Armor crewman and Cavalry Scouts both go train at Fort Knox, KY. We have a bit of enmity between the two MOSs. I wouldnt even compare their training to Rangers much less SF.

Each Armor battalion has a platoon of Cav Scouts in it. They operated in small teams and got waxed often by the tanks when we were in the field.
I can recall a number of times we snuck up on them in our tanks. M1s are notoriously quiet if you are in front of the vehicles, most of the noise from the turbine engine is projected to the rear of the tank.

When I was in Iraq with them they did go out on their own and find caches and capture insurgents. When I changed my MOS over to Military Police I come to find out we do the same crap which I did on the Afghan-Iranian and Afghan-Pakistani border 2005-2006. Just two or three trucks each with a three man team out in the middle of nowhere with sattelite communications. In fact the MP battalion I was with took over a base in Shindand near the Iranian border that was a Cavalry units base. They left and we took over their mission.

I would almost say you could add Military Police to the list but only those who are SRT, Special Reaction Teams. It is physically and mentally demanding, with sniper training, hostage rescue training, and extreme Urban Close Quarters Combat training.

PS: Our privates call for fire too,

[edit on 16/3/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 16/3/07 by MikeboydUS]

One more thing I dont think it violates OPSEC if so I'll be hearing about it shortly. When we took over operations on the Afghan-Iranian border our unit worked with Special Forces and a Navy Seal team. Sadly a number of the Seals we had met lost their lives a few months later when their Chinook was shot down and in the massive firefight that followed. On the Afghan-Pakistani border we worked with Marines, Im not sure if any were Force Recon though. I do know they would go up in the mountains on foot in small groups for days. They also had a habit showing up the Rangers who tended to get lost.

Now that I remember some of those Marines did carry .50 Sniper rifles, thats not standard infantry. They belonged to 1-3 and 2-3 Marines.

[edit on 16/3/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 16/3/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
As for Cav Scouts being most elite, you must be joking.

I was joking, as should have been obvious to any one not a CDAT. I think I even said I was joking, more than once. These “who’s the best” threads are stupid, just trying to add some humor.

FYI, as a CDAT you have no idea what a light scout does. You see Bradley scouts, which is a 19DELTA D3. If you did see leg scouts, they were anti-tank TOW missile teams, even if they were in small recon teams. Light scouts don’t work for armor units. If there were any light OP units around, you sure wouldn’t be able to get them in a tank. They would ruck up a large mountain or hide in a wadie, or maybe in a stand of trees and set up an OP. We stay hidden in places that tanks can’t go, because two men, even if they are SF Operational Detachment Super Duper Cool Guys cannot take on a heat round or a hellfire missile (tanks attract helos.)

And so far as MPs being the same as scouts, this is something I am so tired of hearing. Yes, MPs in Iraq or Afg. do the same mission as most scouts, IE hummer patrol and escorts. HOWEVER, this does not mean you go through the same training or can do the same things we can. You are simply not trained to the same level, sorry to burst your bubble. I rained Iraqi military personnel in Iraq. That is a SF mission, so can I now say that scouts=green berets? Absolutely not. Everyone wants to be considered “elite.” Just be proud of the skills you do have and quit trying to sound like something your not. Could be worse, you could be a cook (sorry cooks.)

I could see you were joking. I was being asinine.

I have an idea of what they do. The scout platoon in my old armor battalion were light scouts. If they weren't on Humvees they were on foot. Tank battalions don't have Bradleys. I know Armored cav units do though.

We did sneak up on them while they were trying to hide in foliage. They couldn't escape the TIS.

I agree that MPs dont go the same level or even quality of training that Cav Scouts recieve at Knox. At the unit level its comparable in quality but it isn't sustained for long periods, a week at a time instead of a month. MPs never get trained on tracked vehicles either.

MPs are not elite. SRT on the other hand might have the skills and training to accomplish missions that normally would be SF, especially hostage rescue and anti terror ops.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
They operated in small teams and got waxed often by the tanks when we were in the field.

Scout life expectancy upon entering combat: 13 seconds and damn proud of it!

Yes, we get "waxed" often and easy.

We sneak and peek on or behind enemy lines in small teams, not a safe thing to be doing. We die fast and hard, its just what we do. That’s why we pack a whole lotta heat, to take as many down with us as we can. Once a scout gets on the radio saying they are shooting, prepare for a funeral service.

The British SAS are tops. That's why the Americans always ask for the SAS to rescue them when they get in a spot of trouble. LOL!

BlueRoho. If you never served you need to shut up. Dont run your mouth to some one that has signed on the dotted line.

Just what qualifications do you have to even have an opinion on this subject.

WOW!!! What a bit of knowledge. I love reading stuff like this. You get the guys who are actually on the ground in some way mixed with the guys who have little to no clue. Just a little bit for everyone. Force Recon is no more. It's all Marine Special Operations Bn now. I read all the stuff a cav scout has to do. Nothing against you dude, but ALL my Marines can do the same thing. Everybody has a different role in the SpecOps community. But SEALs do the same thing as SF. PJ's and Combat Controllers are the best at their jobs too. Delta and DevGroup get the really HS toys. Still none of it can compare to a Marine and his rifle....But then again, I'm biassed. Oh and I think somebody asked about a "hero" of the SpecOps community. I dont know about heros, but guys like Dick Marcinko and Charlie Beckwith get my vote for doing what they did.
Semper Fi!!!

I'd give credit to the Marines as well their standard infantry or riflemen made the Rangers look bad when I was in Afghanistan 2005-2006

Originally posted by Sean0352
But SEALs do the same thing as SF. Semper Fi!!!

Are you trying to say that SEALs and SF have the same missions or are you saying that they have very similar quailfications?

Let's not try to pw3n each other but let's look at what's required.

I'll start with an Australian SF unit - RAR Commando: Source: defencejobs.gov.au

Commando (ECN079)

Commandos are highly skilled Special Forces soldiers capable of advanced infantry tactics. They are trained and qualified in a range of advanced specialist weapons and equipment and can deploy to their area of operations over long distances using a wide range of insertion methods. They can operate in a variety of demanding operational situations conducted in complex terrain. The Commando is mentally tough, quick thinking, innovative and can keep a cool head in difficult situations.

Age requirements (must be male - direct combat role)

Commandos must be aged between 19 and 30 years inclusive on the day of enlistment.

Educational requirements

Completion of Australian Year 9 education (or equivalent) with passes in English and Mathematics.

Security requirements

The Department of Defence requires ADF entrants to attain a security clearance appropriate to their avenue of entry.

A process of background checks, collection of relevant information and, as required, interviews enables the Regional Security Office to make an informed assessment of an applicant's suitability for a security clearance.

Current policy requires applicants for this particular avenue of entry to have lived in Australia for the preceding 10 years, or have a checkable background for this period.

Citizen requirements

You are an Australian citizen....

Medical and Physical Fitness requirements

Medical. Your medical fitness will be assessed by a doctor, prior to enlistment. This assessment will require you to complete an extensive questionnaire covering your medical history and it will be followed by a comprehensive physical examination.

Physical. You will also be required to successfully pass a Special Forces Pre-Fitness Assessment (PFA) before enlistment. This PFA requires you to achieve a higher standard than the general entry fitness level for the Army. You must be able to complete:

· Beep test (shuttle run) to level 10;
· 60 push ups; and
· 100 sit-ups.

The above PFA describes the minimum standard for enlistment as a Commando, however, a higher level of physical fitness will increase your chances of success. The most suitable candidates for Commando training are those who regularly participate in arduous work, team or individual sports, individual or group fitness activities or outdoors-adventurous pursuits.

Psychological. Prior to enlistment, your psychological suitability will be assessed by a psychologist. This assessment will require you to complete a series of questionnaires and a comprehensive interview.

Aptitude Requirements

It is essential that you have the ability to cope with the intellectual demands placed on you during your Commando training and service. This requires you to possess a high level of aptitude. To determine whether you do or do not have the necessary aptitude, you will be required to undertake a series of aptitude tests.

Military Training Pass Requirements

Army Recruit Training (80 days);

Infantry Initial Employment Training (12 Weeks); and

Advanced Infantry Training Program (8 Weeks).

Employment Training Pass Requirements

Infantry Initial Employment Training: 72 days

Special Forces Advanced Infantry Training Program: 8 Weeks

The Special Forces Entry Test

The Special Forces Entry Test is conducted over approximately an 18 to 20 hour period and includes a range of physical and theoretical assessments. It is designed to determine your suitability for entry into a Special Forces program. To be assessed as suitable, you are required to complete the following activities:

# Complete a fitness assessment requiring a minimum of:

* 60 Push-ups;

* 100 Sit-ups; and

* 10 Chin-ups (Heaves).

# Complete a 2.4 km run in patrol order (running shoes, personal webbing and rifle) in 11 minutes 30 seconds or less.

# Complete a 15 km endurance march in marching order (28 Kg including a pack, personal webbing and rifle) in less than 2 Hours and 20 minutes.

# Tread water for two minutes and then swim 400 metres fully clothed (in disruptive pattern camouflage uniform) in 18 minutes or less.

# Complete a Run, Jump and Dodge Test.

# Complete a theoretical navigation test.

You will be given plenty of opportunity to prepare you for this test.

Commando Training Pass Requirements

Special Forces Weapons Course: 1 Week

Commando Training Course: 4 weeks (Commando Grade One)

Special Forces Basic Parachute Course (including water insertion training) (3 Weeks); (Commando Grade Two)

Commando Amphibious Operations Course (3 Weeks);

Commando Demolitions Course (1 Week);

Commando Urban Operations Course (4 Weeks); and

Special Forces Roping Course (1 Week).

One of the following basic specialty courses:

Combat First Aider (3 Weeks); or

Commando Signaller (3 Weeks).

Further Career Requirements and Opportunities

This training is only the start. On the successful completion of your reinforcement training and after serving as a Commando for 12 months, you will be expected to undertake a range of further Commando specialist courses. You may also be suitable to participate in further training in counter-terrorism. This involves completing training in advanced weapon skills and close-quarter fighting techniques and tactics. After 4 years you also may be eligible for SASR selection.

extracts from the Commando (ECN079) Army Syllabus, www.defencejobs.gov.au

[edit on 21-3-2007 by Selmer2]

Originally posted by ultralo1
BlueRoho. If you never served you need to shut up. Dont run your mouth to some one that has signed on the dotted line.

Just what qualifications do you have to even have an opinion on this subject.

A- your first assumption(incorrect I might add) is that I've never served
B- my qualifications are from over 14 years active duty and operational experience.

What might your qualifications be if I may be so bold?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

MPs are not elite. SRT on the other hand might have the skills and training to accomplish missions that normally would be SF, especially hostage rescue and anti terror ops.

The types of hostage rescue that the SRT are trained for is a lot different that what Delta/ST6/CIF units would conduct. The SRT missions are in far more permissive environments than the aforementioned units would operate in, and they're(SRT) not conducting UW or CT type missions at all.

Originally posted by Sean0352
But SEALs do the same thing as SF. PJ's and Combat Controllers are the best at their jobs too. Delta and DevGroup get the really HS toys. Still none of it can compare to a Marine and his rifle....But then again, I'm biassed. Oh and I think somebody asked about a "hero" of the SpecOps community. I dont know about heros, but guys like Dick Marcinko and Charlie Beckwith get my vote for doing what they did.
Semper Fi!!!

SEALs and SF have some similarities in qualifications, but typically have different missions, and operating environments. I wouldn't really compare a Marine rifleman with these units though. That's not to say that the Marine isn't well trained, but a standard infantryman has a much more limited scope in terms of mission and training than SOF unit personnel. I'd agree with you on Marcinko and Beckwith(and would add Dick Meadows in there too).

Originally posted by BlueRaja

A- your first assumption(incorrect I might add) is that I've never served
B- my qualifications are from over 14 years active duty and operational experience.

What might your qualifications be if I may be so bold?

A- I said "IF you never served"
B- Lot of posers on this board, care to elaborate

2 Years active with ARNG mos 35G10. I am not HSLD, was not in combat and I am not a super secret ninja with mental powers.

Gotta agree with the poster saying the marine SF units are the new hot units on the block. The Force Recon guys are right up there with the Rangers if not better. I'm biased too. I have friends in 1st recon. But to give credit the fastest tree climber i ever done saw was my friends dad. he was ex Army Rangers. Took him 3 seconds to climb a good 12 feet up like a cougar hopping in a tree

I too think that Demo Dick, and Charlie were true SF heros. IMO both got hosed by the very system they were trying to serve. Not cool. I also feel though that most of the hardcore heros we'll not find out about because they weren't there to become famous just to do their jobs, which is all they probablly ever wanted to do in the first place. The Army SF guys have tons or really stunningly heroic stories of self sacrifice and overcoming near impossible odds. To bad half of them never become widely known like they should.

Originally posted by Sean0352Force Recon is no more. It's all Marine Special Operations Bn now. I read all the stuff a cav scout has to do. Nothing against you dude, but ALL my Marines can do the same thing. Everybody has a different role in the SpecOps community.

While I don't much keep up with it, I had heard that Navy is considering letting Marines into BUD/S. Has that already happened, or do you hear anything on the subject? My Marine buddies say that will end Naval participation in BUD/S, because they'll wipe the decks with the squids.